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can someone who hold to Lordship salvation define it?
- Thread starter Yeshua1
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Yes, for to take the full implication of hoding to Lordship salvation...
Either we mustattain sinless perfection, or else fully sauctified, or else on probationary salvation until we get there!
one can be saved and stay a babe in chrsit, why else did author of hebrews write to the Hebrews that very fact?
They were no where near having lordship of Christ fully, yet still were fully saved!
Those really saved by the grace of the Lord can decide to confirm with the program, or else deny it at times, as there are seasons where even best one of us have lapses...
Was the Lord David Lord while he commited adultery andmurder?
You still do not get it.
No, others are. Putting forth two definitions of "Lordship salvation," is wrong. Going by the premise that if Christ is not Lord of all then he is not Lord at all (concerning one's personal life) is a wrong premise.
It is only right when applied to all of creation.
That is not what the advocates of "Lordship salvation" are setting forth.
That is not what Johnny Mac is teaching.
There is no one here that disagrees with that. That is not the issue.
In the redefined "Lordship Salvation" this is off topic.
No one disagrees with this.
And so he is; and Obama is your President whether you like it or not. You can't do anything about it. Neither can you change the fact that Christ is Lord of all. The same thing.
He is Lord whether or not we obey.
Obama is still president whether or not you break the laws.
Being a disciple means following Christ and nothing more. That is what a disciple does. He grows through a process of sanctification.
Being a good citizen of your nation means you become more acquainted with the laws of your nation and make a better effort to follow them whether you like them or not. There is no difference.
You maturity as a citizen will not change the fact that you are a citizen of the USA 24/7 and that Obama is your President whether you like it or not.
I am not the one confusing the issue. The one confusing the issue is the one who redefined "Lordship salvation." It does not mean one who has totally submitted to Christ in absolutely all things from the day that he has been saved onward. I wasn't baptized until two years after I was saved. By your standards I would be bound to hell. That is what Lordship salvation teaches. There is no room for sanctification.
The condition of the person.....has NOTHING to do with the question IS JESUS LORD OF ALL....
All christians sin...that does not change their relationship to Jesus as Lord.
You like Hebrews ...let's look at the sinning Christian undergoing heavenly discipline for that sin as they are sons, not bastards....Jesus has no undisciplined children;
12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.
preacher4truth
Active Member
It's error to make a distinction between a true believer and a disciple. They are one in the same. Whomever made such a distinction and popularized it doesn't understand truth. In other words there is no such thing as two classes of believers and an option of being a disciple.
All true believers are disciples. Take note that Paul went and confirmed the souls of disciples, Acts 14:22. He didn't mention 'and other believers of another class'. In Acts 18:23 we see he did this again, strengthening disciples, no mention of another class of 'believers'. In Acts 19:1 Paul found disciples and no other class of believer. He didn't find the other class of 'believers' being purported today because they do not exist.
There is no other class of believers because a believer is a disciple. Such teaching otherwise is make believe made up nonsense to support those false believers in their carnality.
All true believers are disciples. Take note that Paul went and confirmed the souls of disciples, Acts 14:22. He didn't mention 'and other believers of another class'. In Acts 18:23 we see he did this again, strengthening disciples, no mention of another class of 'believers'. In Acts 19:1 Paul found disciples and no other class of believer. He didn't find the other class of 'believers' being purported today because they do not exist.
There is no other class of believers because a believer is a disciple. Such teaching otherwise is make believe made up nonsense to support those false believers in their carnality.
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DHK,
I am glad we agree on these things.I have not read everything ever written on this issue.Maybe you have read some things that describe this issue different from what i have heard...because i am not sure where we part over this.
What I offered is about as simple as i think it is.
There can be a danger and caution must be used to not mix works and grace..in salvation{justification}....and as part of salvation...{sanctification}.
I would be dead set against any such scheme also.That being said the fact is that there are "good works"that are ordained for us eph2;10
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12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
If these truths are not carefully explained there could be a difference in understanding.If you have such a source,written or audio sermon...I will listen to it.:wavey:
god the father installs jesus over us as our Lord, period, regardless on how we view that issue, to God once we are saved, its a finished deal, as He is our Lord!
Does he desire us to allow Him to take over and be our Lord in practical sense, over areas of our lives, indeed yes, but NONE ofus have been perfected and arrived yet!
Exactly.this is to confuse the issue 100%.Who Jesus is and man's relationship to Him are different discussions.
Is Jesus Saviour today,and not tommorow? Is he Lord only when we obey?
He does not change.
And yet the Corinthian church was full of "carnal Christians." Paul calls them as such--carnal Christians. You have no way to answer for this but to deny Scripture. (1Cor.3:1-3)
Lordship has nothing to do with sinless perfection in the life.
I think DHK and I are againstthe extreme Lordship viewpoint, that almost implies one must get sauctified first, to be displies of jesus fully, then can merit salavtion!
We would all agree that jesus is Lord, he is God, regardless if NONE of us acknowledge that fact, but you are not saying that we must have Him always in charge over all aspects of our lives all the time, are you, if yes, that would mean none of us get saved, for not even paul saw Himself as arrived yet!
Yikes, I might have opened a can of worms. I'm not eve sure where to start. Lordship Salvation is entirely related to Soteriology. It is intertwined with the 5 points of Calvinism.
Go through all the issues and scriptures debated between LS proponents and Arminians, and the end result is the same. They like to debate Root versus Fruit, whether or not it's possible to fall away, whether someone responds to God's call or if it's effectual, whether grace is irresistible or an issue of Free Will, but when every issue and passage is viewed, both sides reach the same conclusion about the person/people in question:
Parable of the Sower:
4 groups - the first, clearly not a believer. The next two groups receive the Word with joy then fall away at various times. The fourth group are the only ones who persevere. Now ask both camps - of the four groups, which ones will be in heaven?
LS view - only group 4
Arminian - only group 4
Hebrews 6:4-6:
Is it possible for a genuine believer to fall away? One says he was saved, then lost his salvation. The other says he never was saved in the first place. Bottom line, will he be in heaven?
LS view - no
Arminian - no
Limited Atonement:
One says Christ died for only the elect, and only those will be saved. The other says Christ died for everyone, but only some receive Christ and endure to the end. Let's just use a round number for an apples to apples comparison, say 1 million people. LS view says Christ died for only 1 million, and they will all be in heaven. Arminian says that Christ died for everyone, but only one million believed and endured to the end. Bottom line, how many people will be in heaven?
LS view - 1 million
Arminian - 1 million
Enduring to the end:
Same result as the above issue. Whether it was only 1 million who were elect, or if it were only 1 million who endured to the end, the bottom line is the same. How many in heaven?
LS view - 1 million
Arminian - 1 million
Put a specific number of exactly the same individuals in the middle of each and every issue that is debated, and the bottom line is exactly the same.
Both sides teach that if Jesus is not Lord of your life, then you will not be in heaven.
Free will:
One says God gives every man a measure of faith and that man chooses Christ, the other says that God elects some, and gives them a change of disposition (new birth), then the man chooses Christ form a godly disposition. But whether a man chooses Christ from his own free will, or a man chooses Christ from a born again disposition, both sides say a man chooses Christ. Bottom line - whether God effectually called 1 million people, or only 1 million people responded to a universal call, how may will be in heaven?
LS view - 1 million
Arminian - 1 million
Believer vs. following:
Both sides confuse the issue of believing versus following. One side says we must believe and follow in order to go to heaven, while the other says that following is a component of truly believing. Bottom line - if only 1 million people believe and follow, how many will be in heaven?
LS view - 1 million
Arminian - 1 million
Fruit of faith, assurance:
Both sides teach that a man's works ultimately determine a person's eternal destiny. James 2:14-26 says a man is justified by works. One side says that the one who endures in good works will be saved and cannot have assurance until the end of his life. If he doesn't endure, he will lose his salvation. The other says the one who is saved will endure to the end, and can only have assurance at the end of his life. If he doesn't endure, his faith was spurious. Bottom line - if a man has faith, but has not works, will he be in heaven?
LS view - no
Arminian - no
Different packaging, but the same surprise in the box - no works, no heaven.
Each side professes Sola Scriptura, but both are guilty of employing Scripturae Dimidium, or "Half of Scripture"
Both sides hurl scriptures back and forth, pitting scripture against scripture. One side plainly rejects the scriptures which speak of a believer's absolute eternal security, while the other flatly rejects the scriptures which speak of the real danger of falling away.
Hope that helps
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We agreed on the need for sanctification and growth in a believer's life.You are still dead wrong on this issue....but you do not want to see the remedy as has been offered to you on this...we agreed on much, but now this
In 1Cor.3, Paul addresses them as carnal because they were still immature Christians. They needed to grow. They were still on the milk of the Word and needed to grow so that they could be on the meat of the Word. That is a process of sanctification. He calls them "brothers," meaning they were believers. They were believers, but "infant believers," needing to take baby steps still, whereas they should have been taking larger steps.
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