can someone who hold to Lordship salvation define it?

[JamesL]

Lordship is not about mastering perfection. It is about desire and intent that from now on God rules your life and not you. It is about desiring God and a relationship with Him.

This is in contrast to those who care nothing for God and his Holiness but do want to escape the flames of hell.

I'm not sure if you're stating this as being the Lordship Salvation position, but it is not what Lordship Salvation teaches.

Just listen to John MacArthur's Works To You radio program, or read his books like "The Gospel According to Jesus"

Lordship Salvation is about objective works, not a subjective change in disposition. In the LS salvation view, someone who merely has "thoughts" and "desires" of holiness, but does not translate that into actual good works, has a spurious faith.

It's those on the periphery of Lordship Salvation who water down the objective aspect in order to cling to whatever assurance they once felt. Because they know that if they really examine their own life, it will not cut the mustard.

So clinging to Lordship Salvation on an intellectual level, then denying the nuts and bolts of it.

"Well, I must be alright, because I still "think" about God a lot. I still seem to have desires, and when my conscience is quickened, it must be the Holy Spirit reminding me that I'm a child of God, and that my behavior isn't up to snuff."

Lordship Salvation teaches no such subjectivity of thought. You are either literally, actively, practically towing the line, or you are not in Christ.


But, even Mac contradicts himself at points, like when he teaches on Romans 7.

It is a confusing mess, rattling people with a blurring of the distinction between faith and works. And the only solace is to turn to a subjective view of "thoughts" rather than "works"

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm not sure if you're stating this as being the Lordship Salvation position, but it is not what Lordship Salvation teaches.

Just listen to John MacArthur's Works To You radio program, or read his books like "The Gospel According to Jesus"

Lordship Salvation is about objective works, not a subjective change in disposition. In the LS salvation view, someone who merely has "thoughts" and "desires" of holiness, but does not translate that into actual good works, has a spurious faith.

It's those on the periphery of Lordship Salvation who water down the objective aspect in order to cling to whatever assurance they once felt. Because they know that if they really examine their own life, it will not cut the mustard.

So clinging to Lordship Salvation on an intellectual level, then denying the nuts and bolts of it.

"Well, I must be alright, because I still "think" about God a lot. I still seem to have desires, and when my conscience is quickened, it must be the Holy Spirit reminding me that I'm a child of God, and that my behavior isn't up to snuff."

Lordship Salvation teaches no such subjectivity of thought. You are either literally, actively, practically towing the line, or you are not in Christ.


But, even Mac contradicts himself at points, like when he teaches on Romans 7.

It is a confusing mess, rattling people with a blurring of the distinction between faith and works. And the only solace is to turn to a subjective view of "thoughts" rather than "works"

I have the book I know what it teaches, I hold to it. You are wrong. Every Tom, Sam, and Sally who does not hold to it thinks they know what those of us who do teaches.

Try listening and stop judging.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Now that in itself was a carnal statement coming from a carnal heart.
"For out of the abundance of the heart does a man speak."

I quoted from 1Cor.3.
Now you quote from 2Cor.13.
How much water has passed under the bridge since then? The rest of the book of Corinthians and most of the book of the 2Corinthians and all the months in between the two books. I would say your verse is a bit out of context. They may have grown a little in the faith since 1Cor.3:1-3 was written.

I'm not sure if you're stating this as being the Lordship Salvation position, but it is not what Lordship Salvation teaches.

Just listen to John MacArthur's Works To You radio program, or read his books like "The Gospel According to Jesus"

Lordship Salvation is about objective works, not a subjective change in disposition. In the LS salvation view, someone who merely has "thoughts" and "desires" of holiness, but does not translate that into actual good works, has a spurious faith.

It's those on the periphery of Lordship Salvation who water down the objective aspect in order to cling to whatever assurance they once felt. Because they know that if they really examine their own life, it will not cut the mustard.

So clinging to Lordship Salvation on an intellectual level, then denying the nuts and bolts of it.

"Well, I must be alright, because I still "think" about God a lot. I still seem to have desires, and when my conscience is quickened, it must be the Holy Spirit reminding me that I'm a child of God, and that my behavior isn't up to snuff."

Lordship Salvation teaches no such subjectivity of thought. You are either literally, actively, practically towing the line, or you are not in Christ.


But, even Mac contradicts himself at points, like when he teaches on Romans 7.

It is a confusing mess, rattling people with a blurring of the distinction between faith and works. And the only solace is to turn to a subjective view of "thoughts" rather than "works"

Thank you Mac Daddy:tonofbricks:

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm not sure if you're stating this as being the Lordship Salvation position, but it is not what Lordship Salvation teaches.

Just listen to John MacArthur's Works To You radio program, or read his books like "The Gospel According to Jesus"

Lordship Salvation is about objective works, not a subjective change in disposition. In the LS salvation view, someone who merely has "thoughts" and "desires" of holiness, but does not translate that into actual good works, has a spurious faith.

It's those on the periphery of Lordship Salvation who water down the objective aspect in order to cling to whatever assurance they once felt. Because they know that if they really examine their own life, it will not cut the mustard.

So clinging to Lordship Salvation on an intellectual level, then denying the nuts and bolts of it.

"Well, I must be alright, because I still "think" about God a lot. I still seem to have desires, and when my conscience is quickened, it must be the Holy Spirit reminding me that I'm a child of God, and that my behavior isn't up to snuff."

Lordship Salvation teaches no such subjectivity of thought. You are either literally, actively, practically towing the line, or you are not in Christ.


But, even Mac contradicts himself at points, like when he teaches on Romans 7.

It is a confusing mess, rattling people with a blurring of the distinction between faith and works. And the only solace is to turn to a subjective view of "thoughts" rather than "works"

remonds me of when John Wesley had to "backtrack" away from sinless perfection state, for he held that a Chrsitian, by second act of Grace, could attain such a state while alive, but later watered it down to all good works would hvae motivations right, that of flove of God!

Seems that sinless perfection wesylen and LS seem flip sides same coin!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua1

,

You are repeating failed ideas from a failed theology...sinless perfection,Wesleyian, second work of grace ideas...let go let God false teaching.

We are not told to let go of anything...but are commanded to mortify.

3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:



You do not have a choice or option.Where do you see sin as a choice?We are not "free to sin"...EVER.

Do we sin...yes...but we are not free to sin.

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.




Think that you are quite wrong


The christian is not two natures.....One was crucified with Christ...the new nature exists in this decaying body which is still alive to the motions of sin..

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


You do the same thing in many posts.You ask a question, responses come in....you are sometimes on the truth and sometimes off the reservation{like on this topic}

Then as you continue to post...you slowly modify your original ideas offered and morph into a middle of the road ,compromise...without any scriptural mooring at all.

You are asking questions and then trying to offer second hand repeated ideas..as if they were your own ideas.

What have you read on this topic? have you read sin and temptation by John Owen? have you read and understand anything about mortification of sin.....where you read it ,and developed some root beliefs from scriptures offered?

Second hand knowledge can be ok short term...like a tourniquet can stop bleeding as a temporary fix....until solid help arrives....

because you have no root in yourself on this...you speculate about what is offered to you.

pauline theology can be seen as the New Covenant saint being one of the Holy Spirit, and there are 2 commands for achristian to do in order to live godly in Jesus!

realise/reckon/consider yourself as have died in Christ, realise whom you are now rooted into, and submit/yeild to the Spirit!

the Holy Spirit HIMSELF is the One that grants fruit/power, and conformination into image of chrsit!

THAT is a decision to make, as many refuse to yeild to Him, but those who do, find the means to live as they should!

WE still have the flesh/sin natures residing in us, as that gets forever purged once get glorified!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

remonds me of when John Wesley had to "backtrack" away from sinless perfection state, for he held that a Chrsitian, by second act of Grace, could attain such a state while alive, but later watered it down to all good works would hvae motivations right, that of flove of God!

Seems that sinless perfection wesylen and LS seem flip sides same coin!

Interisting analogy ...in a convoluted way:smilewinkgrin:. Now....defragg!:laugh:

 

[JamesL]

I have the book I know what it teaches, I hold to it. You are wrong. Every Tom, Sam, and Sally who does not hold to it thinks they know what those of us who do teaches.

Try listening and stop judging.

I'm not judging wrongly, so why should I stop judging? I think you need a refresher course on what Mac teaches, from his Works to You website:

Scripture teaches that the gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Pet. 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25). It is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18-20). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that repentance is simply a synonym for faith and that no turning from sin is required for salvation.

Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Cor. 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Gal. 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Rom. 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matt. 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Eph. 2:10), and continue in the faith (Col. 1:21-23; Heb. 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.

Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3; Rom. 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven.

Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.

Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3).


Then, after all that OBJECTIVITY about works being the real test of faith, genuine believers obey, turning from sin, he offers ONE sentence to inject enough subjectivity to give him and his sheeple an out:

Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith


So please don't patronize me as someone who doesn't understand his teachings. I was a Lordship Salvation proponent for several years.

You are seriously misrepresenting the Lordship Salvation position when you put a primary focus on subjective "desire" and "willingness" and diminish the actual position of objective obedience to Christ, and a life fully surrendered to Him in thought and deed

 

[Yeshua1]

I'm not judging wrongly, so why should I stop judging? I think you need a refresher course on what Mac teaches, from his Works to You website:

Scripture teaches that the gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Pet. 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Tim. 2:25). It is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18-20). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that repentance is simply a synonym for faith and that no turning from sin is required for salvation.

Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Cor. 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Gal. 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Rom. 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matt. 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Eph. 2:10), and continue in the faith (Col. 1:21-23; Heb. 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.

Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Pet. 1:3; Rom. 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven.

Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.

Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3).


Then, after all that OBJECTIVITY about works being the real test of faith, genuine believers obey, turning from sin, he offers ONE sentence to inject enough subjectivity to give him and his sheeple an out:

Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith


So please don't patronize me as someone who doesn't understand his teachings. I was a Lordship Salvation proponent for several years.

You are seriously misrepresenting the Lordship Salvation position when you put a primary focus on subjective "desire" and "willingness" and diminish the actual position of objective obedience to Christ, and a life fully surrendered to Him in thought and deed

Seems that this is getting closed to infused grace as RCC holds to, or baptism/decond act of grace as Wesylens do!

 

[Yeshua1]

Interisting analogy ...in a convoluted way:smilewinkgrin:. Now....defragg!:laugh:

Both stress that once saved, God infused/imparted as with grace , and that we will and must live as commited Christians, as if one does not walk as they should be, all the time due to grcae in/on us now, then both would doubt really saved!

Their chant is "if jesus not lord over all, lord over none", so who has obtained such a state now?

 

[JamesL]

remonds me of when John Wesley had to "backtrack" away from sinless perfection state, for he held that a Chrsitian, by second act of Grace, could attain such a state while alive, but later watered it down to all good works would hvae motivations right, that of flove of God!

Seems that sinless perfection wesylen and LS seem flip sides same coin!

That's good stuff there, Yeshua1

I would probably have never seen that parallel. Kudos

 

[JamesL]

Seems that this is getting closed to infused grace as RCC holds to, or baptism/decond act of grace as Wesylens do!

You're right. It treads very close to the Seventh Day Adventist position of Imparted Righteousness

I forgot to post the link to Mac's website

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/A114

That way, it's not second hand information

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You're right. It treads very close to the Seventh Day Adventist position of Imparted Righteousness

I forgot to post the link to Mac's website

http://www.gty.org/Resources/Articles/A114

That way, it's not second hand information

Oh noooooooo. This is puritanism at its finest isn't it!?!

'Y'.......don't say we didn't try to warn ya.

 

[JamesL]

Oh noooooooo. This is puritanism at its finest isn't it!?!

It's a futile exercise of the mind, that's what it is.

It leads to self-righteous hypocrisy, sweeping one's own faults under the rug, lack of transparency and accountability.

Believe me, I was there. I had no desire to tell someone how I'd been living lately, because I knew that even my best attempts at righteousness were nothing but filthy rags. It keeps believers walking in the flesh, always focusing on their behavior, and pointing out the faults of those who aren't towing the line

The only lords in Lordship Salvation are the teachers who lord over their unsuspecting subjects.

Only the strongest of wills can muster the pharisaical girth to endure the outward perfection that is at the heart of this teaching. Outwardly, whitewashed tombs, inwardly full of dead men's bones

Self appointed fruit inspectors, always in the wrong orchard, looking for the wrong fruit

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

It's a futile exercise of the mind, that's what it is.

It leads to self-righteous hypocrisy, sweeping one's own faults under the rug, lack of transparency and accountability.

Believe me, I was there. I had no desire to tell someone how I'd been living lately, because I knew that even my best attempts at righteousness were nothing but filthy rags. It keeps believers walking in the flesh, always focusing on their behavior, and pointing out the faults of those who aren't towing the line

The only lords in Lordship Salvation are the teachers who lord over their unsuspecting subjects.

Only the strongest of wills can muster the pharisaical girth to endure the outward perfection that is at the heart of this teaching. Outwardly, whitewashed tombs, inwardly full of dead men's bones

Self appointed fruit inspectors, always in the wrong orchard, looking for the wrong fruit

And you already know my pet peeves. Ding dong the wicked witch, the mean old witch, the wicked witch......ROFL. Man you just gotta laugh! :thumbs:

 

[JamesL]

And you already know my pet peeves. Ding dong the wicked witch, the mean old witch, the wicked witch......ROFL. Man you just gotta laugh! :thumbs:

:thumbs:
lol

 

[DHK]

Take out the word carnal as descriptive and you will see it....

just as Paul addressed these saved brethren. , new believers, still feeding on the milk of the Word and not the meat.


3 for yet ye are fleshly, for where [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not fleshly, and in the manner of men do walk?

In the manner of men....acting as natural unsaved men, after their manner...not acting as who you are.

4 for when one may say, `I, indeed, am of Paul;' and another, `I -- of Apollos;' are ye not fleshly?

There is a good article why, what is taught as "Lordship Salvation" is not Biblical. Here is the one paragraph on "Carnal Christians."

Third, Lordship Salvation ignores the possibility of a carnal Christian. If complete commitment and yielding to Christ is an initial prerequisite for salvation, then there is no such thing as a believer who is carnal or not completely surrendered to Christ. Yet the Bible contains numerous examples of carnal believers. For example, Lot, who is called "righteous" three times (2 Pet 2:7-8), exhibits perpetual unrighteous behavior (Gen 19:30-38). Similarly, the Corinthians are called saints (1 Cor 1:2) yet the rest of 1 Corinthians reveals their un-saintly behavior. Thus, Paul refers to them as carnal believers (1 Cor 3:1-3). While carnal Christianity is obviously not God's perfect will for His children, such a categorization is a legitimate possibility.

I would encourage you to read the entire article.

http://www.bibleprophecyblog.com/2011/03/what-is-wrong-with-lordship-salvation.html#

 

[HungryInherit]

Lordship salvation is the idea that belief in Christ for eternal life is not enough. Zane Hodges wrote a great book called "Absolutely Free" in which he critiques Lordship Salvation and particularly MacArthurs book. It's a great read and is still in print if I'm not mistaken. Hodges taught NT at DTS for 27 years and wrote some really great book. Toward the end of his life (RIP) he took a stand against LS.

 

[HungryInherit]

And like clockwork I agree with DHK on the issue

 

[JamesL]

There is a good article why, what is taught as "Lordship Salvation" is not Biblical. Here is the one paragraph on "Carnal Christians."

I would encourage you to read the entire article.

http://www.bibleprophecyblog.com/2011/03/what-is-wrong-with-lordship-salvation.html#

Good article

I was asked once, if the bible teaches such a thing as normal Christians vs. sold out, totally committed Christians.

My response was:
First need to clear up a misconception.
What some would call a sold out, totally committed Christian, the bible would call normal.
And what some would call a "normal" Christian, the bible would call a messed up Christian.

There's something wrong with a Christian who is not totally committed, or totally trusting and following Christ.

It seems that we're accused of teaching that it's ok to be a messed up Christian. That it's ok to be carnally minded, or that it's ok to just be living life without a hopeful trust in Christ as the center of our being.

Far from the truth. We should all think nothing of this life, and count ourselves as unworthy servants. I am far from where I need to be. But I know whom I have believed, and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.

And scripture is clear that not every believer is normal. If every believer is "sold out" (I never liked that term), then why all the scriptures speaking of failure?

I've heard "That's addressing false Christians"

In other words, unbelievers. Well, I never knew that so much Christian instruction would be written to unbelievers.

Easy believism? Not even hardly. Believing in Christ, without any help from us, is the most humbling experience a person can go through. It is not easy to come as a wretched sinner and rely wholly upon Christ for salvation.

 

[Iconoclast]

There is a good article why, what is taught as "Lordship Salvation" is not Biblical. Here is the one paragraph on "Carnal Christians."

I would encourage you to read the entire article.

http://www.bibleprophecyblog.com/2011/03/what-is-wrong-with-lordship-salvation.html#

DHK

I feel we made progress on this thread.I have read this article through and can respond to it if you want me to.
Overall the case he attempts to make ....I have never heard any RB suggest these ideas. Calvinists do not set up certain conditions and pre requisites as this article suggests.
Obviously i see this issue different, but am thankful you posted this link so I can understand the fears some have of the biblical teaching.

I will not go over the article in detail, unless you want me to.I can answer it thoroughly however it would branch out a bit wider than the point in contention.
I am glad we were able to agree in part.

The movement began with the well-intentioned concern to address too much carnality in the Christian world.

This is a valid concern...he openly speaks of it.Whatever view a person holds to....excessive worldliness is not a good sign, or condition for a professed believer to be in.