can someone who hold to Lordship salvation define it?

[preacher4truth]

And yet the Corinthian church was full of "carnal Christians." Paul calls them as such--carnal Christians. You have no way to answer for this but to deny Scripture. (1Cor.3:1-3)

You misunderstand much doctrine and your statement above is not true. Only a fool would go around and preach such into heaven. Paul asked them to examine themselves whether they are in the faith, or reprobate as per 2 Cor. 13:5 thus the verdict was still out yet you're preaching them into heaven because you misunderstand Scripture.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

There is no such thing as almost or partly coming to repentance. If a person has not surrendered to the Lordship of Jesus over their life they have not been saved.

I'm going to take this last portion of your post first, because in it lies the key to understanding what we're talking about, and why "Lordship Salvation" is an error.

Scripture nowhere states that the unbelieving/unrepentant are called to a committed life, but everywhere in Scripture they are called only to believe. The "cleanup" comes afterwards, and takes a lifetime. No one is ever "made perfect" in this life, but only in the next. To claim that full repentance is necessary or the convert is disqualified is to lie about God's word. Salvation is free, it is from grace and grace alone, and is first, last and only the inner conviction that what God said in His gospel is true. That is saving faith, and once acknowledged as truth, stated in the heart, and accepted by God -- who empowers the acceptance and confession to begin with -- salvation has taken place. "It is finished." Now, let's address your Scripture.

Actually the bible answers that question.
Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Discipleship, not saving faith, is being discussed here. The Greek erchomai is translated "comes" in this verse, and it means "to be established, become known." This speaks of those who have already become believers. It is not addressed to anyone who is not a believer.

Luke 14:27
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:33
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Continuation of the previous thought, and still talking about discipleship. A disciple must believe the Master he follows teaches truth. If not, he/she would not seek to be a disciple of that person at all.

Now getting done what He calls us to is another issue. That is called sanctification.

No. Sanctification is the process of being made holy through the influence of the Spirit of God who indwells us. This isn't about "getting anything done." This is about recognizing the changes that the Spirit calls to our attention as being necessary, and allowing Him to work through us to make them.

 

[Iconoclast]

We agreed on the need for sanctification and growth in a believer's life.
In 1Cor.3, Paul addresses them as carnal because they were still immature Christians. They needed to grow. They were still on the milk of the Word and needed to grow so that they could be on the meat of the Word. That is a process of sanctification. He calls them "brothers," meaning they were believers. They were believers, but "infant believers," needing to take baby steps still, whereas they should have been taking larger steps.

DHK,

I can agree again as you word this post....young believers,yes, immature yes, All can agree when worded this way....

The difference is......there are only two kinds of men

spiritual....carnal......

can spiritual men...behave, or act, as the carnal....yes they can. But they are out of character....like a fish out of water,when they behave this way ...sinning...

They cannot be said to be.....natural or carnal in nature.That is where we differ.
A saint...is called to be who he is...a saint. the word of God outlines the marks of regeneration and a holy godly lifestyle.

These Corinthians were.....acting as mere men...as natural...as if they were not indwelt by the Spirit. That is why they were being rebuked.

a similar rebuke is offered in Hebrews 5;
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


The very fact that they are rebuked...shows that is not to be our condition.

 

[Revmitchell]

Scripture nowhere states that the unbelieving/unrepentant are called to a committed life, but everywhere in Scripture they are called only to believe.

Mat_10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Scripture is pretty clear

 

[Iconoclast]

http://defendingcontending.com/2010/09/08/the-heresy-called-make-jesus-lord-today/

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Mat_10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Scripture is pretty clear

Yet again, discipleship. Not saving faith.

 

[Iconoclast]

Mat_10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Scripture is pretty clear

It is crystal clear;

59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.

62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God

 

[Yeshua1]

We agreed on the need for sanctification and growth in a believer's life.
In 1Cor.3, Paul addresses them as carnal because they were still immature Christians. They needed to grow. They were still on the milk of the Word and needed to grow so that they could be on the meat of the Word. That is a process of sanctification. He calls them "brothers," meaning they were believers. They were believers, but "infant believers," needing to take baby steps still, whereas they should have been taking larger steps.

he called them babes in Christ, wanted them to drow up to become adults!

Also, what about paul , aftersalvation, still finding that he was not acting as he wantd to, that he was still sinning, but found the Spirit Himself as the answer to living as he should?

Yield/submit to the flesh, and be carnal, or submit to the Sprit, and live rightly!

Think our friend Icon denies that we still have sin natures/flesh/sin principle though!

 

[Yeshua1]

It is crystal clear;

59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.

62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God

Then all the Apostles denied jesus, and were lost, or else never saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

DHK,

I can agree again as you word this post....young believers,yes, immature yes, All can agree when worded this way....

The difference is......there are only two kinds of men

spiritual....carnal......

can spiritual men...behave, or act, as the carnal....yes they can. But they are out of character....like a fish out of water,when they behave this way ...sinning...

They cannot be said to be.....natural or carnal in nature.That is where we differ.
A saint...is called to be who he is...a saint. the word of God outlines the marks of regeneration and a holy godly lifestyle.

These Corinthians were.....acting as mere men...as natural...as if they were not indwelt by the Spirit. That is why they were being rebuked.

a similar rebuke is offered in Hebrews 5;
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


The very fact that they are rebuked...shows that is not to be our condition.

How about there are Chrsitians who chose to submit to the flesh and temptations, that chose to do sinful things, would they be then unsaved?

 

[Yeshua1]

You misunderstand much doctrine and your statement above is not true. Only a fool would go around and preach such into heaven. Paul asked them to examine themselves whether they are in the faith, or reprobate as per 2 Cor. 13:5 thus the verdict was still out yet you're preaching them into heaven because you misunderstand Scripture.

Think DHK is correct on this issue!

 

[Iconoclast]

Yeshua1

Yield/submit to the flesh, and be carnal

,

You are repeating failed ideas from a failed theology...sinless perfection,Wesleyian, second work of grace ideas...let go let God false teaching.

We are not told to let go of anything...but are commanded to mortify.

3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

or submit to the Sprit, and live rightly!

You do not have a choice or option.Where do you see sin as a choice?We are not "free to sin"...EVER.

Do we sin...yes...but we are not free to sin.

13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Think our friend Icon denies that we still have sin natures/flesh/sin principle though!

Think that you are quite wrong


The christian is not two natures.....One was crucified with Christ...the new nature exists in this decaying body which is still alive to the motions of sin..

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


You do the same thing in many posts.You ask a question, responses come in....you are sometimes on the truth and sometimes off the reservation{like on this topic}

Then as you continue to post...you slowly modify your original ideas offered and morph into a middle of the road ,compromise...without any scriptural mooring at all.

You are asking questions and then trying to offer second hand repeated ideas..as if they were your own ideas.

What have you read on this topic? have you read sin and temptation by John Owen? have you read and understand anything about mortification of sin.....where you read it ,and developed some root beliefs from scriptures offered?

Second hand knowledge can be ok short term...like a tourniquet can stop bleeding as a temporary fix....until solid help arrives....

because you have no root in yourself on this...you speculate about what is offered to you.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

I can agree again as you word this post....young believers,yes, immature yes, All can agree when worded this way....

The difference is......there are only two kinds of men

spiritual....carnal......

can spiritual men...behave, or act, as the carnal....yes they can. But they are out of character....like a fish out of water,when they behave this way ...sinning...

You are drawing a false dichotomy.
Even the spiritual man sins (which is of the flesh). I have seen pastors lose their temper, and that is not spiritual. It is of the flesh. Pastors (who are supposed to be spiritual) do many things that are of the flesh. They also are very worldly (some of them). We are human and will not reach sinless perfection until we reach heaven. Every sin committed is "of the flesh."

Therefore, the spiritual man can be carnal, just as Paul addressed these saved brethren. They were carnal, new believers, still feeding on the milk of the Word and not the meat.

 

[Iconoclast]

How about there are Chrsitians who chose to submit to the flesh and temptations, that chose to do sinful things, would they be then unsaved?

Again......real christians sin.Yet real christians struggle and pray for God to enable them to put sin to death, to deprive it of power.

Salvation is not works based
sanctification is not works based

Yet good works are essential to healthy life and growth in grace.they flow from a root principle-

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

that is the struggle Paul spoke of in Romans 7

 

[DHK]

You misunderstand much doctrine and your statement above is not true. Only a fool would go around and preach such into heaven. Paul asked them to examine themselves whether they are in the faith, or reprobate as per 2 Cor. 13:5 thus the verdict was still out yet you're preaching them into heaven because you misunderstand Scripture.

Now that in itself was a carnal statement coming from a carnal heart.
"For out of the abundance of the heart does a man speak."

I quoted from 1Cor.3.
Now you quote from 2Cor.13.
How much water has passed under the bridge since then? The rest of the book of Corinthians and most of the book of the 2Corinthians and all the months in between the two books. I would say your verse is a bit out of context. They may have grown a little in the faith since 1Cor.3:1-3 was written.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

White it cannot be denied that faith in Christ produces change, as Paul writes ...

2 Corinthians 5, NASB
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.​

... and a person whose faith in Christ has delivered him/her from sin should not desire to continue in sin, again as Paul writes ...

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?​

... it is also true that the process of living a Christian life is in our submitting to God in ever greater progressive measures.

2 Peter 5
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

Being saved does not require a believer to instantly, completely and overarchingly submit to God in every area of his/her life from the moment of salvation. Acknowledging that he/she is a sinner, as enabled by the Holy Spirit, who reveals the need of Jesus Christ for salvation, and placing trust in Him, results in salvation. Nothing more.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.​

Jesus is Lord, without doubt.

Philippians 2
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.​

Christians absolutely should submit to Him.

James 4
7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you​

But the bottom line is, a changed life and submission to Christ's lordship are the result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Hello DHK....I think we are making progress today.

You are drawing a false dichotomy.

let's look...slowly.....

Even the spiritual man sins (which is of the flesh). I have seen pastors lose their temper, and that is not spiritual. It is of the flesh

.

Agreed...we are still in a body of flesh....able to sin.In glorified bodies we will no longer be able to sin.

Pastors (who are supposed to be spiritual) do many things that are of the flesh.

let's speak of saved pastors for a minute...or saved persons..we all sin.Any manifestation of the fruit of the flesh is sin.

They also are very worldly (some of them).

Some of them are not true believers...let's not speculate.If any professed christian can be classified as any of the fruits of the flesh...he is in danger, not in a good place.

We are human and will not reach sinless perfection until we reach heaven. Every sin committed is "of the flesh."

Sure....in one way..every sin is a falling short, a missing of the mark...that is why paul says...oh wretched man...THAT I AM....
he does not say wretched man that I was.

Therefore, the spiritual man can be carnal,

NO....this is the crux of it..right here-let's turn it around first...

The carnal man...the natural man...cannot be Spiritual...he does not have the Spirit.

A natural man acting by common grace may do similar things outwardly to a Spiritual man.ie, he goes to work, he puts food on the table, pays bills, but his heart is alienated from the life of God.
the Spiritual man...is spiritual only, indwelt by the Spirit...and yet, is able to grieve the Spirit by acting As a natural or carnal man.

That is the reason why they were rebuked.It was out of place, it did not belong among those who are called saints....paul shows the same thing in eph 4-5.....walk as children of light;
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


this is a settled condition..they have already put off the Old at regeneration....they are to move forward now-
It is actually ...having put off the old man


6 Let no one deceive you with vain words, for because of these things cometh the anger of God upon the sons of the disobedience,

7 become not, then, partakers with them,

8 for ye were once darkness, and now light in the Lord; as children of light walk ye,

9 for the fruit of the Spirit [is] in all goodness, and righteousness, and truth,

10 proving what is well-pleasing to the Lord,

11 and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of the darkness and rather even convict,

12 for the things in secret done by them it is a shame even to speak of,

13 and all the things reproved by the light are manifested, for everything that is manifested is light;

just as Paul addressed these saved brethren. They were carnal, new believers, still feeding on the milk of the Word and not the meat.

Take out the word carnal as descriptive and you will see it....

just as Paul addressed these saved brethren. , new believers, still feeding on the milk of the Word and not the meat.


3 for yet ye are fleshly, for where [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not fleshly, and in the manner of men do walk?

In the manner of men....acting as natural unsaved men, after their manner...not acting as who you are.

4 for when one may say, `I, indeed, am of Paul;' and another, `I -- of Apollos;' are ye not fleshly?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm going to take this last portion of your post first, because in it lies the key to understanding what we're talking about, and why "Lordship Salvation" is an error.

Scripture nowhere states that the unbelieving/unrepentant are called to a committed life, but everywhere in Scripture they are called only to believe. The "cleanup" comes afterwards, and takes a lifetime. No one is ever "made perfect" in this life, but only in the next. To claim that full repentance is necessary or the convert is disqualified is to lie about God's word. Salvation is free, it is from grace and grace alone, and is first, last and only the inner conviction that what God said in His gospel is true. That is saving faith, and once acknowledged as truth, stated in the heart, and accepted by God -- who empowers the acceptance and confession to begin with -- salvation has taken place. "It is finished." Now, let's address your Scripture.Discipleship, not saving faith, is being discussed here. The Greek erchomai is translated "comes" in this verse, and it means "to be established, become known." This speaks of those who have already become believers. It is not addressed to anyone who is not a believer.
Luke 14:27
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.Continuation of the previous thought, and still talking about discipleship. A disciple must believe the Master he follows teaches truth. If not, he/she would not seek to be a disciple of that person at all.No. Sanctification is the process of being made holy through the influence of the Spirit of God who indwells us. This isn't about "getting anything done." This is about recognizing the changes that the Spirit calls to our attention as being necessary, and allowing Him to work through us to make them.

DCONN......I must say.....I AM IM IMPRESSED

 

[Judith]

Romans 10:9-10 gives clear indication of this principle.

Lordship is not about mastering perfection. It is about desire and intent that from now on God rules your life and not you. It is about desiring God and a relationship with Him.

This is in contrast to those who care nothing for God and his Holiness but do want to escape the flames of hell.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

DCONN......I must say.....I AM IM IMPRESSED

Occasionally, I even surprise myself. :laugh: :thumbsup: