can someone who hold to Lordship salvation define it?

[Iconoclast]

I missed your response to post eleven.......In fact I missed any post where you gave a biblical response.

 

[Iconoclast]

Of course, one more friend than you do. Oh I'm sorry,your the founding member of the 3 amigos......a band of wacky loony tune Calvies bent on forcing Reformed theology down the throats of everyone you meet.

But where is my manners......please have another donut.:laugh:

Well I can see that I have one less....your bitterness is in fact when you visit Montville they saw through you and you were not comfortable.Your excuses about gas money have gone away as you have money for....pub night over priced drinks......but no heart for church fellowship.....I understand. ....

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well I can see that I have one less....your bitterness is in fact when you visit Montville they saw through you and you were not comfortable.Your excuses about gas money have gone away as you have money for....pub night over priced drinks......but no heart for church fellowship.....I understand. ....

Oh oh....your walking around blind without a cane again. You shouldn't slight and slander someone for your own ego satisfaction big boy. See DCONN has your number....he sees ya as you really are. GOOD. Lets see you weasel outa this one. Have another donut.:laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

Earth, Wind & Fire

Oh oh....your walking around blind without a cane again

.

Whatever that means:laugh:

You shouldn't slight and slander someone

I have not...read post 11....slander would be like when you posted that the puritans taught works requirements for salvation,and when you were asked to post a few examples...you did not:wavey:
.

See DCONN has your number..

yes..it was post number 11...he like you claims things,and yet cannot answer when questioned. You share that with him.

..he sees ya as you really are.

well..glad you think so..that is why he is your new hero....

Lets see you weasel outa this one

.

There is nothing to "weasel out of", unless you mean how neither of you respond when questioned....actually...d-con has offered on some other threads so I have to modify my statement.
When he responds to post 11, then gives judith an apology for fabricating his "in the greek" post that was dead wrong then progress might be made:wavey:

 

[DHK]

yes..it was post number 11...he like you claims things,and yet cannot answer when questioned. You share that with him.

When he responds to post 11, then gives judith an apology for fabricating his "in the greek" post that was dead wrong then progress might be made:wavey:

You keep referring to post 11. What is it about post 11 that you want people to respond to?
Here it is: post 11:

I imagine you must count me among those who cant quite get their arms around it either Rev. I've observed the term many times on this board but watching replies posted it seems people are talking around each other on the topic. Its not a topic I've done any research on because frankly, haven't heard a whole lot about it. Could you elaborate?

???

 

[Iconoclast]

You keep referring to post 11. What is it about post 11 that you want people to respond to?
Here it is: post 11:

???

My Bad DHK....I did not make it clear enough...it was post 11 from dudes born again experience thread.....Judith answered the OP...D-con tries to offer her correction as he saw it...however...what he offered itself needed correction...here it is-

D-con says;

Quote:
Your must be born again, and in the Greek, that is a personal action verb. It is a declaration we make based on the Holy Spirit drawing, calling and enabling our faith, but we have that small assenting piece in the process.

Completely wrong..a fabrication on your part...here is the fact of the matter;
From W.E. Best-
Quote:
A PASSIVE SINNER

Jesus answered and said to him: Truly truly I am telling you, unless one may be born from above, he is not able to understand the kingdom of God. —John 3:3 (translation)

In the study of the total spiritual inability of the unregenerate, one cannot ignore the passivity of those who are not born of God. The passive voice of the Greek verb gennao (may be born) in John 3:3 represents the subject as the recipient of the action, signifying that the subject is being acted upon. If the subject were a participant in regeneration, it would be in the middle voice. FFurthermore, if the subject could regenerate himself, the action would be in the active voice. Anytime man is associated with the active or middle voice used with sodzo or gennao, there is no connection with one’s being made spiritually alive. This brings us to the importance of Christ’s first statement to Nicodemus in John 3:3.

Jesus Christ gave no instruction to Nicodemus concerning how he could be born of God. But how many times have we heard preachers and others tell people how they can be born again? They are doing something the Savior Himself never did throughout His personal ministry. Although Christ used the imperative (command) when He said, “repent” (Matt. 4:17; Mark 1:15) and “believe” (Mark 1:15; 5:36), He never commanded anyone to be born from above, be regenerated, or be quickened. Distinction must be made between the new birth and faith. Christ’s first statement to Nicodemus was, “Truly truly I am telling you, unless one may be born [gennethe, aorist passive subjunctive of gennao, to be born] from above, he is not able [present passive indicative of dunamai, is able, negated by the adverb ou] to understand [idein, aorist active infinitive of horao, to see, observe, or understand] the kingdom of God” (John 3:3—translation). The subjunctive mood of the verb gennao is in the passive voice. The definition of the passive voice should be considered from two points of view: (1) The subject of the verb is inactive, and (2) the subject is acted upon by someone else. The following is a list of the verses where the passive voice of the verb gennao is used:

1. John 1:13—"Who not out of bloods nor out of the will of the flesh nor out of the will of man but out of God were born [egennethesan, aorist passive indicative]" (translation).

2. John 3:3—"...Truly truly I am telling you, unless one may be born [gennethe, aorist passive subjunctive]..." (translation).

3. John 3:5—This is the same as verse 3.

4. John 3:6—"That which has been born [gegennemenon, perfect passive participle] out of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born [gegennemenon, perfect passive participle] out of the Spirit is spirit" (translation).

5. John 3:7—"Do not wonder because I said to you: It is necessary for all of you to be born [gennethenai, aorist passive infinitive] from above" (translation).

6. John 3:8—"The Spirit is breathing where He desires, and you are hearing His voice, but you have not understood where He is coming from and where He is going; thus is everyone who has been born [gegennemenos, perfect passive participle nominative masculine singular] out of the Spirit" (translation).

7. I John 2:29—"If you may know absolutely that He is righteous, you know also that everyone doing righteousness has been born [gegennetai, perfect passive indicative] out of Him" (translation).

8. I John 3:9—"Everyone who has been born [gegennemenos, perfect passive participle nominative masculine singular] out of God does not practice sin, because his seed is remaining in him; and he is not able to be sinning, because he has been born [gegennetai, perfect passive indicative] out of God" (translation).

9. I John 5:1—"Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born [gegennetai, perfect passive indicative] out of God, and everyone loving the One who gave birth is loving the one who has been born [gegennemenon, perfect passive participle accusative masculine singular] out of God" (translation).

10. I John 5:4—"...because everything that has been born [gegennemenon, perfect passive participle nominative neuter singular] out of God is overcoming the world; and this is the victory overcoming the world, our faith" (translation).

11. I John 5:18—"We have known [perfect active indicative of oida] that everyone who has been born [gegennemenos, perfect passive participle nominative masculine singular] out of God does not practice sin, but the one having been born [gennetheis, aorist passive participle] out of God is guarding himself, and the wicked one cannot harm him" (translation).

This list of Scriptures proves that regeneration (born out of God) is the exclusive work of the sovereign God upon the passive sinner. To deny that the sinner is completely passive to spiritual things is to deny depravity. Some argue that if man is totally unable to exercise his reasoning faculty and freedom of will and choice, he would be so insensible that he would not know it when he went to hell. They say that although the rich man of Luke 16:19-31 was totally unable to flee the torments of hades, he was not totally unable to exercise his will and choice for mercy, because he asked for mercy and relief. Their rationalization leads them to question, since this was done in hades, why can it not be done on earth? They quote Isaiah 1:18 to support their claim that the sinner exercises his reason before he is made as white as snow. Furthermore, their opinion is that the sinner must exercise freedom in order to come to the Lord before he finds rest (Matt. 11:28). They conclude that any person who says the sinner is totally incapable of repentance and faith reverses the order and does not understand the following things: (1) The sinner walks in sin (Eph. 2:1, 2). (2) He is dead and alive at the same time (I Tim. 5:6). (3) He may become dead to sin by grace without being a corpse (Rom. 6:11). (4) He is not insensitive while he is dead in sin, because he is able to reason and choose to leave the hog pen (Luke 15:11-32). (5) He is responsible to repent and believe while he is dead in sin (Mark 1:15). (6) Though dead in sin, the sinner can make a decision to live (Ezek. 18:31). (7) He is not destined to be regenerated apart from repentance and faith (Luke 7:50). [/QUOTE]


So...I have asked him to back up his statement which he presented as factual/I remember Archangel had offered several fine posts on this topic..saying the same thing.

 

[DHK]

This list of Scriptures proves that regeneration (born out of God) is the exclusive work of the sovereign God upon the passive sinner. To deny that the sinner is completely passive to spiritual things is to deny depravity.

This isn't true. In another thread the OP started with a link to mistakes that present day Calvinists often make. One of them is adhering to a strict linear order in salvation, especially putting regeneration before faith. That is error. That is what you are advocating here.
The author of that link made the statement that if regeneration preceded faith then logically we would have many faithless regenerated people wandering the earth, and that just does not happen. Faith must precede regeneration, and in time regeneration and salvation happen simultaneously. It is an error to say that there is any space of time between them.
However faith must precede them both.

 

[Iconoclast]

No....they all happen at the same time.....it is inseperable.I did not quote brother Best...for his idea on that.I just remembered Archangels post...and this reminded me of it....I want dc on to support his idea or apologize to Judith

 

[Berean]

You do not know what Lordship is.

I remember back in the 80''s our church did series of EE by D James Kennedy and I had a problem with instructing telling new believers "You must be willing to make Christ Lord in your life". I felt this was tainted Grace. Although you will make him Lord in your life. If this were part of the salvation process it would be salvation by works.

 

[DHK]

No....they all happen at the same time.....it is inseperable.I did not quote brother Best...for his idea on that.I just remembered Archangels post...and this reminded me of it....I want dc on to support his idea or apologize to Judith

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It is quite evident that one has faith to believe well before they are regenerated or saved. They have the faith that gives them the choice whether or not to believe.
One is born again by the Word of God, but they must believe it--have faith in it.
One is saved by the Word of God, but they must believe it--have faith in it.
Faith always comes first. It cannot come at the same time.
Regeneration and salvation are simultaneous, but a person has faith long before then.

 

[Reformed]

We do not make Jesus Lord.....He is Lord by God's eternal design.You or anyone else does not "make" anything....

Correct.

Jesus Christ is Lord. The new Christian who lacks a complete understanding of what Jesus' lordship entails does not strip Him of His lordship. The new Christian may progress in his sanctification, eventually yielding more and more of his life to Christ through obedience, but that does not make Jesus Lord.

I used to think "making Jesus the Lord of your life" was just a semantical argument by the fundamentalist crowd. However it is a theological argument. It is in keeping with their synergistic view of salvation.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I remember back in the 80''s our church did series of EE by D James Kennedy and I had a problem with instructing telling new believers "You must be willing to make Christ Lord in your life". I felt this was tainted Grace. Although you will make him Lord in your life. If this were part of the salvation process it would be salvation by works.

Exactly:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

This isn't true

.

In this article the passive sinner ...pastor Best did a fine job making a biblical case for what the scripture actually says.

In another thread the OP started with a link to mistakes that present day Calvinists often make. One of them is adhering to a strict linear order in salvation,

Any such "linear idea " is simply trying to explain distinctions in salvation, not always to make a rigid linear graph or whatever.

especially putting regeneration before faith.

Saving faith is the gift of God.God grants repentance and faith in salvation. They happen at the same time.You stubbornly stick to the idea that it is man who makes the difference, instead of God. i am certain it is God who makes us to differ. Paul thanked God for his salvation...he did not thank himself.

That is error. That is what you are advocating here.

The thing is DHK...you re word it so it comes out wrong.

The author of that link made the statement that if regeneration preceded faith then logically we would have many faithless regenerated people wandering the earth, and that just does not happen

.
That statement is correct and as all of us have said...they happen at the same time. Faith is the instumentality.

Faith must precede regeneration,

Not at all...they happen at the same time.

and in time regeneration and salvation happen simultaneously.

You almost admit it here DHK....just trying to hold on to mans ability...let it go DHK....

It is an error to say that there is any space of time between them.

That is what we have said all along.:thumbsup:

However faith must precede them both.

nope

 

[convicted1]

Exercising God given faith is proof that the new birth has already taken place...

 

[Iconoclast]

Exercising God given faith is proof that the new birth has already taken place...

:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup:

 

[Iconoclast]

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

It is quite evident that one has faith to believe well before they are regenerated or saved. They have the faith that gives them the choice whether or not to believe.
One is born again by the Word of God, but they must believe it--have faith in it.
One is saved by the Word of God, but they must believe it--have faith in it.
Faith always comes first. It cannot come at the same time.
Regeneration and salvation are simultaneous, but a person has faith long before then.

I like all these verses...here is more from Pastor Best-

God-Given Faith And God’s
Eternal Covenant Connected

God-given faith is united with God’s eternal covenant of grace: “Now the God of peace, the One who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep in the blood of an eternal covenant, our Lord Jesus, to make you complete in every good thing to do His will, producing in us that which is acceptable in His presence through Jesus Christ to whom be glory forever and ever: Amen” (Heb. 13:20, 21 — translation). “And the nations hearing were rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as have been appointed to eternal life believed” (Acts 13:48 — translation). “And when he desired to pass through into Achaia, the brethren wrote having encouraged the disciples to welcome him; who, having come, assisted much the ones who have believed by means of grace” (Acts 18:27 — translation).

God is the covenant God, and this is apart from any relation to man. He is the triune God. In that trinity, there is exclusive unity. No fourth person could have a place in that union of equals. That possibility would negate grace. In this union of equals are the plan, purpose, price, and application of redemption.



Religionists should use that word because they place man on a superior level to God. Their heretical opinion is that God cannot do anything until man lets Him. The word diatheke is used because it is a unilateral covenant between the Persons in the Godhead.

In Hebrews 9:16-17, diatheke is used in the sense of a will. A will is an arrangement of possessions and has force only when the person who has made the will has died and the death is established. However, Christ is the only Testator to make a will, survive death, and live to be the executor of His own will. There are some important features about a will: (1) A will must name the heirs (John 10:3; Phil. 4:3; Rev. 3:5; 13:8). (2) A will must describe the inheritance (Eph. 1:1-14). (3) A will should be probated (Ps. 119:89). (4) A will is of no force until the death of the author of the will (Heb. 9:16, 17). (5) A will must provide for an executor. Jesus Christ rose from the dead to be the executor of His own will. In Hebrews 9:16-17, the Testator is Jesus Christ; saints are the heirs; the legacies are the gifts of the Holy Spirit; and the witnesses are the apostles.

Acts 13:48 proves that God-given faith is connected with God’s eternal covenant of grace: “And the nations hearing were rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as have been appointed to eternal life believed” (translation). The word “appointed” (perfect passive participle of tasso) is used in the sense of designate, order, or determine. Arminians argue that if Acts 13:48 refers to God’s election of certain ones to be saved, it contradicts verse 46, which speaks of God’s allowing the Jews freedom of choice to reject the gospel. “And Paul and Barnabas having become bold said: It was necessary for the word of God to be spoken first to you; since you reject it and are judging yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold we are turning to the nations” (v. 46 — translation). They teach that verse 48 simply means that all who were capable of believing were “disposed” to believe, did believe, and by the gospel and Spirit, they were set in order.

Contrary to the Arminian argument, in the eternal covenant of grace, God appointed all the chosen ones to believe; and everyone in God’s covenant of grace will believe. The chosen one will be preserved by God’s providence until he does believe. He is appointed to believe, not disposed to believe. One believes by means of grace; therefore, subjective grace must be within before he can believe. The word “disposed” is an incorrect translation of tetagmenoi (perfect passive participle nominative masculine plural of the verb tasso), used with the preposition eis (accusative of relationship) in verse 48. The word “disposed” means to put in a particular order or arrangement. One who translates tasso thus should ask himself, Who disposed them? Is deliverance from sin’s penalty a matter of man’s resolution or God’s ordination? The answer to these questions solves the whole man-made problem. Although one translates the word as disposed, he will not prove that the disposition is one’s own. The elect are disposed by the decree and providence of God. There is no direct mention of God’s election here, but it is implied. How can persons who are at enmity against God have any inward disposition or inclination toward God? “THE plans of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from the LORD” (Prov. 16:1 NASB). It is not in man to set in order his own heart. This is wholly wrought by God.

The verb tasso is found 8 times in the New Testament: (1) In Matthew 28:16, it is translated “appointed” (KJB) and “designated” (NASB). (2) In Luke 7:8, it is translated “set” (KJB) and “under authority” (NASB). (3) In Acts 13:48, it is translated “ordained” (KJB) and “appointed” (NASB). (4) In Acts 15:2, it is translated “determined” (KJB and NASB). (5) In Acts 22:10, it is translated “appointed” (KJB and NASB). (6) In Acts 28:23, it is translated “appointed” (KJB) and “set” (NASB). (7) In Romans 13:1, it is translated “ordained” (KJB) and “established” (NASB). (8) In I Corinthians 16:15, it is translated “addicted” (KJB) and “devoted” (NASB). These eight references can be placed into five categories — to command, to appoint, to determine, to subject to authority, and to devote to.

The verb tasso is never used to denote an internal inclination or disposition arising from one’s own depraved heart. The Jews did not believe. They rejected the message Paul and Barnabas were preaching. Therefore, their hearts had not been touched by grace. They had no inclination for the gospel. They were not thirsty for righteousness. Like every depraved person, the preached gospel of Christ meant nothing to them. However, some of the Gentiles were glorying in the God of salvation and rejoicing in the message they were hearing, because their inclination did not come from something originating within themselves.

We do not receive grace by our faith: “And when he desired to pass through into Achaia, the brethren wrote having encouraged the disciples to welcome him; who, having come, assisted much the ones who have believed by means of grace” (Acts 18:27 — translation). Since we believe by means of grace, we do not believe in order to get grace. Salvation is of God by God-given faith. It is connected with God’s eternal covenant of grace. All those God has appointed to believe shall believe, and they shall believe by means of grace. Our believing is above the natural. It comes from God Himself.

Here is the whole link:

http://www.webbmt.org/EnglishHTML/S....htm#3 GOD-GIVEN FAITH EXAMINED THEOLOGICALLY

http://gracebbc.dyndns.org:81/TheBornAgainPhenomenon.html

 

[OldRegular]

The question reminds me of some personal testimonies I used to hear along the lines of "I accepted Jesus as my Savior when I was 10 years old, but I didn't really make Him my Lord until several years later."

I have heard the same thing "ad nauseam"!

As I understand Lordship salvation, you can't separate the two things. If He's not your Lord, how can he be your Savior?

I agree!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

I have heard the same thing "ad nauseam"!

I agree!

Submitting to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is an issue of spiritual growth, not salvation. The Christian life is a process of submitting to God in increasing measure.

2 Peter, NASB
5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

There's no way a new believer grasps this fully and completely so that he/she comes away from the experience of salvation completely and fully sanctified. Most don't even understand the concept of "fully surrendered" much less accomplish it. That is a process, and it lasts a lifetime. The very people on here making the claim that "Lordship salvation" means fully submitting to His will from the very beginning, didn't do so. We all continue to find, hidden in the rocks and crevices of our lives, little pockets of sin that need to be weeded out, things we've been doing since the day we became a follower of Christ. When we do, we confess them, submit at the foot of the cross, are healed, and move on. To claim all of this is dealt with instantaneously is to claim perfection. We ain't perfect.

 

[Yeshua1]

My Bad DHK....I did not make it clear enough...it was post 11 from dudes born again experience thread.....Judith answered the OP...D-con tries to offer her correction as he saw it...however...what he offered itself needed correction...here it is-

D-con says;

Completely wrong..a fabrication on your part...here is the fact of the matter;
From W.E. Best-
Quote:
A PASSIVE SINNER

Jesus answered and said to him: Truly truly I am telling you, unless one may be born from above, he is not able to understand the kingdom of God. —John 3:3 (translation)

In the study of the total spiritual inability of the unregenerate, one cannot ignore the passivity of those who are not born of God. The passive voice of the Greek verb gennao (may be born) in John 3:3 represents the subject as the recipient of the action, signifying that the subject is being acted upon. If the subject were a participant in regeneration, it would be in the middle voice. FFurthermore, if the subject could regenerate himself, the action would be in the active voice. Anytime man is associated with the active or middle voice used with sodzo or gennao, there is no connection with one’s being made spiritually alive. This brings us to the importance of Christ’s first statement to Nicodemus in John 3:3.

Jesus Christ gave no instruction to Nicodemus concerning how he could be born of God. But how many times have we heard preachers and others tell people how they can be born again? They are doing something the Savior Himself never did throughout His personal ministry. Although Christ used the imperative (command) when He said, “repent” (Matt. 4:17; Mark 1:15) and “believe” (Mark 1:15; 5:36), He never commanded anyone to be born from above, be regenerated, or be quickened. Distinction must be made between the new birth and faith. Christ’s first statement to Nicodemus was, “Truly truly I am telling you, unless one may be born [gennethe, aorist passive subjunctive of gennao, to be born] from above, he is not able [present passive indicative of dunamai, is able, negated by the adverb ou] to understand [idein, aorist active infinitive of horao, to see, observe, or understand] the kingdom of God” (John 3:3—translation). The subjunctive mood of the verb gennao is in the passive voice. The definition of the passive voice should be considered from two points of view: (1) The subject of the verb is inactive, and (2) the subject is acted upon by someone else. The following is a list of the verses where the passive voice of the verb gennao is used:

1. John 1:13—"Who not out of bloods nor out of the will of the flesh nor out of the will of man but out of God were born [egennethesan, aorist passive indicative]" (translation).

2. John 3:3—"...Truly truly I am telling you, unless one may be born [gennethe, aorist passive subjunctive]..." (translation).

3. John 3:5—This is the same as verse 3.

4. John 3:6—"That which has been born [gegennemenon, perfect passive participle] out of the flesh is flesh, and that which has been born [gegennemenon, perfect passive participle] out of the Spirit is spirit" (translation).

5. John 3:7—"Do not wonder because I said to you: It is necessary for all of you to be born [gennethenai, aorist passive infinitive] from above" (translation).

6. John 3:8—"The Spirit is breathing where He desires, and you are hearing His voice, but you have not understood where He is coming from and where He is going; thus is everyone who has been born [gegennemenos, perfect passive participle nominative masculine singular] out of the Spirit" (translation).

7. I John 2:29—"If you may know absolutely that He is righteous, you know also that everyone doing righteousness has been born [gegennetai, perfect passive indicative] out of Him" (translation).

8. I John 3:9—"Everyone who has been born [gegennemenos, perfect passive participle nominative masculine singular] out of God does not practice sin, because his seed is remaining in him; and he is not able to be sinning, because he has been born [gegennetai, perfect passive indicative] out of God" (translation).

9. I John 5:1—"Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born [gegennetai, perfect passive indicative] out of God, and everyone loving the One who gave birth is loving the one who has been born [gegennemenon, perfect passive participle accusative masculine singular] out of God" (translation).

10. I John 5:4—"...because everything that has been born [gegennemenon, perfect passive participle nominative neuter singular] out of God is overcoming the world; and this is the victory overcoming the world, our faith" (translation).

11. I John 5:18—"We have known [perfect active indicative of oida] that everyone who has been born [gegennemenos, perfect passive participle nominative masculine singular] out of God does not practice sin, but the one having been born [gennetheis, aorist passive participle] out of God is guarding himself, and the wicked one cannot harm him" (translation).

This list of Scriptures proves that regeneration (born out of God) is the exclusive work of the sovereign God upon the passive sinner. To deny that the sinner is completely passive to spiritual things is to deny depravity. Some argue that if man is totally unable to exercise his reasoning faculty and freedom of will and choice, he would be so insensible that he would not know it when he went to hell. They say that although the rich man of Luke 16:19-31 was totally unable to flee the torments of hades, he was not totally unable to exercise his will and choice for mercy, because he asked for mercy and relief. Their rationalization leads them to question, since this was done in hades, why can it not be done on earth? They quote Isaiah 1:18 to support their claim that the sinner exercises his reason before he is made as white as snow. Furthermore, their opinion is that the sinner must exercise freedom in order to come to the Lord before he finds rest (Matt. 11:28). They conclude that any person who says the sinner is totally incapable of repentance and faith reverses the order and does not understand the following things: (1) The sinner walks in sin (Eph. 2:1, 2). (2) He is dead and alive at the same time (I Tim. 5:6). (3) He may become dead to sin by grace without being a corpse (Rom. 6:11). (4) He is not insensitive while he is dead in sin, because he is able to reason and choose to leave the hog pen (Luke 15:11-32). (5) He is responsible to repent and believe while he is dead in sin (Mark 1:15). (6) Though dead in sin, the sinner can make a decision to live (Ezek. 18:31). (7) He is not destined to be regenerated apart from repentance and faith (Luke 7:50).

So...I have asked him to back up his statement which he presented as factual/I remember Archangel had offered several fine posts on this topic..saying the same thing.[/QUOTE]

i am not calvinist enough, as not fully reformed in theology, but do know that the sinner MUST receive the Lord jesus thru faith in order to receive the grace of God to be classified as a Christian!

Now did he grant me that faith to respond to jesus> Yes, Did the Spirit quicken me, openning heart and mind to call upon jesus and get saved, yes

God still had me come unto Jesus, He supplied ALL needed for me to do that,as He had ordained for me to do that at a specific time and place!

Was the Lord TOTALLY supplying/providing what was needed to save me, indeed, as start to finish work of God, but still had to call upon His name, believing unto Jesus for salvation!

 

[Yeshua1]

No....they all happen at the same time.....it is inseperable.I did not quote brother Best...for his idea on that.I just remembered Archangels post...and this reminded me of it....I want dc on to support his idea or apologize to Judith

You are corrct in this area, as the Spriit Himself MUST first grant us open herats/minds to receive and believe unto jesus, but the truth is the entire processfrom our point of view happens same time, flip side of same coin!