Can the Christian church support nationalsim?

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

So how do you define "wrap yourself in the flag"?

Only a question Rev, not seeking a fight here.

Are our faith and our national citizenship somehow inextricably tied together?

Can one be a solid Christian in America, or any other country, and not be a nationalist?

 

[Revmitchell]

Only a question Rev, not seeking a fight here.

Are our faith and our national citizenship somehow inextricably tied together?

Can one be a solid Christian in America, or any other country, and not be a nationalist?

????????????


I just asked a question. Wrapping ones self in the flag means what? What ever it is is most likely subjective. I have never known anyone who said one had to be an American to be a Christian. This is the first time I have ever heard of such silliness.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

????????????


I just asked a question. Wrapping ones self in the flag means what? What ever it is is most likely subjective. I have never known anyone who said one had to be an American to be a Christian. This is the first time I have ever heard of such silliness.

I did not imply anything about being an American as a requirement for being a Christian. I am not sure where you got that idea Rev. Indeed that would be pure silliness.

Of course the phrase 'wrap yourself in the flag' is subjective, nothing else was suggested.

My question was this (slightly altered for clarity) - 'Can one be a solid Christian in America, Ireland, Mexico, Poland, or any other country, and not be a nationalist?'

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Does anyone know of any country, outside the US, that as a general practice, displays the national flag at the front of the church?

Excepting, of course, churches started by some American missionaries.

I have been in several Irish churches and have never seen the tri-colour flying in any of them.

Is either of these mindsets right or wrong, or is it totally a matter of preference?

I am also a bit curious because, at least from my experience, it appears to be an American phenomena.

I often ponder these things because one of our basic baptist tenets is 'separation of church and state.'

Thanks for the thread Crabby - it has reawakened some thoughts on this topic.

 

[Revmitchell]

I did not imply anything about being an American as a requirement for being a Christian. I am not sure where you got that idea Rev. Indeed that would be pure silliness.

Oh well......here is where I got it:

"Can one be a solid Christian in America, or any other country, and not be a nationalist? "

My question was this (slightly altered for clarity) - 'Can one be a solid Christian in America, Ireland, Mexico, Poland, or any other country, and not be a nationalist?'

I have no idea what that means?

 

[Revmitchell]

Does anyone know of any country, outside the US, that as a general practice, displays the national flag at the front of the church?

This has been subject that has been distorted by libbies. It is done because we understand that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. It has been done since this countries founding. It is not done in other countries because it they were not founded that way. It wasn't until about 1926 that anything but creationism was taught in schools. The first text book was the Bible. This is why our faith and our citizenship are tied together. Of course libbies want a secular country. Conservatives want our country, our homes and our schools and our churches all to be God honoring

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

This has been subject that has been distorted by libbies. It is done because we understand that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. It has been done since this countries founding. It is not done in other countries because it they were not founded that way. It wasn't until about 1926 that anything but creationism was taught in schools. The first text book was the Bible. This is why our faith and our citizenship are tied together. Of course libbies want a secular country. Conservatives want our country, our homes and our schools and our churches all to be God honoring

Thanks for the input.

Anyone else?

 

[Bob Alkire]

I think Revmitchell hit a good part of it.

If I recall my history correctly many of our founding fathers were Christians or pro Christian ( I know Mr. Payne wasn't, along with others). In history in HS we were taught the prayers of so many of our founding fathers and their statements about the church and their faith.

Read the constitution of the colonies and you get an idea and then the constitution of the 13 states and many others after that and one can see how this has happen to a point.

I believe so many of the meeting places during the revolution was held in churches. So yes there is history of the love of country among Christians.
Look at the faith of so many of our generals or military leaders from Washington to Lee to MacArthur and many others.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

The history is clear and thanks to both of you for the reminders. I am well aware of our history - taught it for many years.

So is it a good or bad thing that faith and patriotism go hand in hand in America?

Or, is it simply, as I suspect, simply the way the culture has developed?

As far as I know there is no other country in the world where faith and flag are so tied together.

I only wonder if it healthy or unhealthy for the American church in general to be so tied to a nationalistic spirit. And there is no agenda - I truly 'wonder.' Is there a reason that the writers of the US Constitution chose to leave out any mention of God? Do you think they saw dangers in both National Christianity and Christian Nationalism? The First Amendment would indicate a certain fear of the former and some allowance for the latter.

Can we reconcile separation of church and stare with Christian Nationalism as we see it manifest in our US churches?

 

[Crabtownboy]

Does anyone know of any country, outside the US, that as a general practice, displays the national flag at the front of the church?

Excepting, of course, churches started by some American missionaries.

I have been in several Irish churches and have never seen the tri-colour flying in any of them.

Is either of these mindsets right or wrong, or is it totally a matter of preference?

I am also a bit curious because, at least from my experience, it appears to be an American phenomena.

I often ponder these things because one of our basic baptist tenets is 'separation of church and state.'

QUOTE]

Interesting points C4K. I have never seen a national flag in any church outside the United States. I wonder if visitors from other countries are offended when they see an American flag in US churches? I'll have to ask some of my friends in other countries about that.

You comment did remind me of something I read years ago by Will Durant on the Christian flad and the US flag sharing the same stage. Druant, as far as I know, was an agnostic. In the editorial I read he said that it is offensive to have a US flag alongside a Christian flag as it goes against the teachings of Christ and the New Testament. The national flag stands for the secular whereas the Christian flag stands for Christ and the spiritual. The two should not be mixed in a Christian setting.

Where is ourloyality ... with Christ or Casear?I wish I could remember which of his writings included these comments.

Personally, I believe having both flags on a church stage is a very visable of how American Christians confuse Christ with culture and state.

And, yes, it certainly does contridict the Baptist stance of separation of church and state.

 

[Crabtownboy]

C4K wrote: I only wonder if it healthy or unhealthy for the American church in general to be so tied to a nationalistic spirit. And there is no agenda - I truly 'wonder.' Is there a reason that the writers of the US Constitution chose to leave out any mention of God? Do you think they saw dangers in both National Christianity and Christian Nationalism? The First Amendment would indicate a certain fear of the former and some allowance for the latter.[/QUOTE]

Bold emphasis mine.

Yes, the did fear the dangers. Their greatest fear was that of a central government establishing a state church and discriminating against non-state churches.

It was Virginia Baptists who pushed, shoved, screamed and led the fight for the first 10 amendments of the constitution. They would not have done this if they had fears.

There is danger in both directions, state control of the church and also of church control of the state.

There is dangers in blind loyality to the state as well as in blind hatred of the state.

There is a place for patriotism.

 

[Bob Alkire]

So is it a good or bad thing that faith and patriotism go hand in hand in America?

I would say it could be both. If we put our country above God, we are wrong.

Or, is it simply, as I suspect, simply the way the culture has developed?

I would say it is culture, but it is going to be a thing of the past before long, in my mind.

As far as I know there is no other country in the world where faith and flag are so tied together.

I don't know about today but back in the 60's doing work in Mexico alot of folks we were sharing the Gospel with would say if they left the RCC they would have a hard time getting work. I know at that time the government wasn't real happy with us. I don't know if that counts or not.

I only wonder if it healthy or unhealthy for the American church in general to be so tied to a nationalistic spirit. And there is no agenda - I truly 'wonder.' Is there a reason that the writers of the US Constitution chose to leave out any mention of God?

I would say it could be both. Anything that isn't done to the glory of God can lead to failure. If one puts country above God, there is trouble. In my life span I have found more into nationalistic spirit who served in the service, not all and less of it of the ones who didn't serve but again not all. It is why I pray for our president even thought I didn't vote for him and don't like much of anything he has done up to now.

 

[Revmitchell]

The history is clear and thanks to both of you for the reminders. I am well aware of our history - taught it for many years.

So is it a good or bad thing that faith and patriotism go hand in hand in America?

Or, is it simply, as I suspect, simply the way the culture has developed?

As far as I know there is no other country in the world where faith and flag are so tied together.

I only wonder if it healthy or unhealthy for the American church in general to be so tied to a nationalistic spirit. And there is no agenda - I truly 'wonder.' Is there a reason that the writers of the US Constitution chose to leave out any mention of God? Do you think they saw dangers in both National Christianity and Christian Nationalism? The First Amendment would indicate a certain fear of the former and some allowance for the latter.

Can we reconcile separation of church and stare with Christian Nationalism as we see it manifest in our US churches?

The flag represents the country. Conservatives do not live dual lives. We do not have a secular life and a Christian life. No aspect gets done without an acknowledgment of God.

 

[sag38]

Threads like this are generally started by Christians on the left who want to justify their vote for President Obama and their support of his leftist agenda and that of the democratic party. They generally believe that the government is the answer to all our problems, are against the death penalty, justify open abortion by using the back alley abortion argument, think that capitalism is evil, are anti-war and therefore anti-military, believe that global warming is a real and present threat to their existence, have no problem with the homosexual agenda, have an unhealthy and unconstitutional understanding of the separation of church and state, believe the fairness doctrine is not a form of censorship, think that U.S.'s reputation around the world is more important than standing up for what is right, and I could go on and on. A twisted view of history, a skewed reading of the Constitution, is their rallying cry and God help anyone who doesn't agree with them. And, because the Christian right does not buy into their belief system we are accused trying to set up a theocracy in our attempt to influence who is put into elective offices. They cringe at the fact that we actually believe that government should be limited, accountable and support morality and decency.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Threads like this are generally started by Christians on the left who want to justify their vote for President Obama and their support of his leftist agenda and that of the democratic party. They generally are against the death penalty, justify open abortion by using the back alley abortion argument, are against any type of war, believe that global warming is a real and present threat to their existence, have no problem with the homosexual agenda, have an unhealthy and unconstitutional understanding of the separation of church and state, believe the fairness doctrine is not a form of censorship, and I could go on and on. And, because the Christian right does not buy into their belief system we are accused trying to set up a theocracy in our attempt to influence who is put into elective offices. We actually believe that government should be accountable and support morality and decency.

Would it not be easier to just address the issue at hand instead of questioning the motivation and heart of poster?

Is there something inherently wrong with this kind of discussion?

A twisted view of history, a skewed reading of the Constitution, is their rallying cry and ...

Could you provide a non-skewed reading of the Constitution that supports Christian Nationalism?

God help anyone who doesn't agree with them.

This attitude seems to pervade both sides of the debate

 

[sag38]

The term "separation of church and state" isn't even found in the constitution. So, who's reading is skewed?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Never claimed it was. God is not there either.

I am sure it is not exclusive, but don't most Baptists have 'separation of church and state' as a key tenet of their belief system?

 

[matt wade]

Threads like this are generally started by Christians on the left who want to justify their vote for President Obama and their support of his leftist agenda and that of the democratic party. They generally believe that the government is the answer to all our problems, are against the death penalty, justify open abortion by using the back alley abortion argument, think that capitalism is evil, are anti-war and therefore anti-military, believe that global warming is a real and present threat to their existence, have no problem with the homosexual agenda, have an unhealthy and unconstitutional understanding of the separation of church and state, believe the fairness doctrine is not a form of censorship, think that U.S.'s reputation around the world is more important than standing up for what is right, and I could go on and on. A twisted view of history, a skewed reading of the Constitution, is their rallying cry and God help anyone who doesn't agree with them. And, because the Christian right does not buy into their belief system we are accused trying to set up a theocracy in our attempt to influence who is put into elective offices. They cringe at the fact that we actually believe that government should be limited, accountable and support morality and decency.

Wow, you must be some sort of mind reader! Look in your crystal ball and tell me some things about my future. :laugh:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I think Bonhoffer is a good source for this topic.

 

[Berean]

Define Nationalism.