Can the Christian church support nationalsim?

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Define Nationalism.

I'll let Merriam-Webster do it not feeling well today hence my unusual time on the BB

loyalty and devotion to a nation ; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

Is that compatible with our citizenship in heaven? Aren't we really nothing more than pilgrims and strangers in this land, whether this land be Russia, Spain, Japan, the US, or any other country?

 

[Crabtownboy]

They generally believe that the government is the answer to all our problems.

You have just given here, in a nutshell, one of the strongest arguments against a Christian being an ultra-nationalist.

 

[Revmitchell]

I think Bonhoffer is a good source for this topic.

There is nothing he could say to add to it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

There is nothing he could say to add to it.

Why not Rev?

 

[tinytim]

I understand the OP and sympathize with the OP...
But

In America it is impossible to seperate the citizen from the Government.
WE are the Government.
So we have a responsibility to govern.

NOW.. How should a Christian govern?
Should we throw out our Christian ideals when we do?
NO.

As someone said earlier, we don't have the luxury of seperating our secular lives from our Christianity. We don't have split personalities.
So, when a Christian approaches the subject of politics or enters the realm of public service that Christian MUST bring his ideals along.
If he doesn't .. if a person can lay Christ down for a little while... then that person doesn't understand Christianity.

To sum up my view.
I am a Christian... first an foremost.. this controls my worldview.
I am an American.
Since being an American, I am part of the governing body.
As part of the governing body, I cannot lay aside Christianity to govern.
So therefore my Christian values and morals will control how I govern.
Everything I do, I do unto the Lord (can't think of the verse, but I am sure someone can)
EVERYTHING...

So I CANNOT vote for someone that supports and promotes things that directly oppose the Word of God. i.e. abortion, homosexual marriage, stealing (taking money from hard working people to give to people who refuse to work), promoting sex outside the bounds of marriage (planned parenthood), mistrust in God (Global warming ~ God is in control of the Earth.. not Al Gore)

God decided to place me here. I see it as a stewardship issue.
All Christians should make sure that Godly principles are in place around them.
And as part of the governing body in America.. all Christians are called to support Christianity in America.

 

[preachinjesus]

wow...so many angry people throwing accusations around like they're nothing...

The greatest plagues of sin have beset Christianity when it is combined with blind nationalism. In Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s there was an immediate attachment of political and national will with the Church. We all know what happened there.

The worst things imaginable happen when we blindly combine the two.

Are our faith and our national citizenship somehow inextricably tied together?

I believe we are citizens of two countries. But our greatest allegiance is to that far country which we are promised (Hebrews 11:13-14.) While we can, and should, remain gracious and live rightly while in this corrupt land we must realize that it is temporal and we have a greater calling in life.

America is just another country in a pantheon of them in our world. How are we greater than any other country?

I hear people say and pray "God bless America" but hasn't he already done that? Seriously, haven't we had the blessing of God. But what have we done with it? Used it to create a system of consumerization that can destroy a person in a heartbeat? Proliferated a pagan ideal of might make right? Maybe its time for God to remove His blessing.

Can one be a solid Christian in America, or any other country, and not be a nationalist?

Of course. I like the United States, but I'm not first and foremost a Patriot. I'm first and foremost a follower of Christ and patriotic is way down the list.

I don't care for 4th of July Services. I don't theologically care for churches that sing "God Bless America" or "My Country Tis of Thee" or "The Star Spangled Banner" in their services. I have a problem with that. The Church is to be something separate from the State. We have different roles. Our people get confused when we blur the lines. We corrupt the faith when we intermingle them.

Maybe the greatest ministry our churches could is showing how the State fails to be a healer in times of trouble. But our churches refuse to step up to the plate.

But then again I'm just a low dog, dust eating, baby killing liberal...according to some...:tonofbricks:

 

[Robert Snow]

If you don't care to even comment on the topic at hand, why bother posting in this thread at all? Just to keep your "jab" in and act childish?

Bingo! We have a winner!

 

[Revmitchell]

Libbies always trying to equate American Patriotism with Hitler. It is a false example and most likely a result of their liberal college indoctrination. It doesn't make for good logic or credibility.

 

[Robert Snow]

I think this is an interesting topic. Though the New Testament clearly teaches respect and submission to the state, I don't see the 'Red, White, and Blue Christianity' that is so common in the US.

That is a major reason these types of churches are ineffective in spreading the Gospel. You cannot serve two masters.

 

[sag38]

Mitch, How true!! This is the same junk that I heard taught in many classrooms when I was in college. And, it's sickening when Christians buy into it.

"Blessed is the man that does not walk in the counsel of the ungodly, nor stand in the way of the sinner, nor sit in the seat of the scornful."

 

[Robert Snow]

Threads like this are generally started by Christians on the left who want to justify their vote for President Obama and their support of his leftist agenda and that of the democratic party. They generally believe that the government is the answer to all our problems, are against the death penalty, justify open abortion by using the back alley abortion argument, think that capitalism is evil, are anti-war and therefore anti-military, believe that global warming is a real and present threat to their existence, have no problem with the homosexual agenda, have an unhealthy and unconstitutional understanding of the separation of church and state, believe the fairness doctrine is not a form of censorship, think that U.S.'s reputation around the world is more important than standing up for what is right, and I could go on and on. A twisted view of history, a skewed reading of the Constitution, is their rallying cry and God help anyone who doesn't agree with them. And, because the Christian right does not buy into their belief system we are accused trying to set up a theocracy in our attempt to influence who is put into elective offices. They cringe at the fact that we actually believe that government should be limited, accountable and support morality and decency.

Yea, everything is about President Obama and abortion.

Another reason churches like these are so ineffective. As long as pastors like this are in control, the Gospel will continue to suffer.

 

[Revmitchell]

The gospel suffers when liberalism gets involved. Liberalism ( even moderatism) always leads to secularism.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Libbies always trying to equate American Patriotism with Hitler. It is a false example and most likely a result of their liberal college indoctrination. It doesn't make for good logic or credibility.

Not so Rev. I'm not a political liberal. I believe in our Constitution and that its meaning is plain. But what do we do when the very document of the founding of our Country is violated? We are a republic so what happens when the people we voted in make decisions like nationalizing banks (funny Hitler did that?) or Forcing all children into public schools (one step away from Hitler youth) Or determine that Christianity is public enemy number one? What if our government began rounding a select group of people based on their ancestry or faith and began putting them in consentration camps and killing them "for the national good". Would I be obligated to follow it? Or stand for Christian values like Bonhoffer? I'm not suggesting all these things are happening now but there is a point that I will stop supporting our Nation. Rather I would support the nation founded on the Constitution and refuse support against a progressive country that no longer values that document.

 

[Crabtownboy]

The gospel suffers when liberalism gets involved. Liberalism ( even moderatism) always leads to secularism.

If you look back over the postings in this thread you will see it is the Conservatives and Fundamentalists who are saying there is no conflict in being a Christian and a Nationalist, notice the capital N. So I believe you have it exactly backwards, at least your post shows you are defending secularism in that the government is secular and Christianity is not. In that regard the two are incompatible.

I would say the gospel suffers when people confuse their culture, and that includes their government, with Christianity.

Have a blessed day.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

wow...so many angry people throwing accusations around like they're nothing...

The greatest plagues of sin have beset Christianity when it is combined with blind nationalism. In Germany in the 1930s and early 1940s there was an immediate attachment of political and national will with the Church. We all know what happened there.

The worst things imaginable happen when we blindly combine the two.



I believe we are citizens of two countries. But our greatest allegiance is to that far country which we are promised (Hebrews 11:13-14.) While we can, and should, remain gracious and live rightly while in this corrupt land we must realize that it is temporal and we have a greater calling in life.

America is just another country in a pantheon of them in our world. How are we greater than any other country?

I hear people say and pray "God bless America" but hasn't he already done that? Seriously, haven't we had the blessing of God. But what have we done with it? Used it to create a system of consumerization that can destroy a person in a heartbeat? Proliferated a pagan ideal of might make right? Maybe its time for God to remove His blessing.



Of course. I like the United States, but I'm not first and foremost a Patriot. I'm first and foremost a follower of Christ and patriotic is way down the list.

I don't care for 4th of July Services. I don't theologically care for churches that sing "God Bless America" or "My Country Tis of Thee" or "The Star Spangled Banner" in their services. I have a problem with that. The Church is to be something separate from the State. We have different roles. Our people get confused when we blur the lines. We corrupt the faith when we intermingle them.

Maybe the greatest ministry our churches could is showing how the State fails to be a healer in times of trouble. But our churches refuse to step up to the plate.

But then again I'm just a low dog, dust eating, baby killing liberal...according to some...:tonofbricks:

Real close to my point of view here.



Thanks for the articulate post.

 

[Revmitchell]

If you look back over the postings in this thread you will see it is the Conservatives and Fundamentalists who are saying there is no conflict in being a Christian and a Nationalist, notice the capital N. So I believe you have it exactly backwards, at least your post shows you are defending secularism in that the government is secular and Christianity is not. In that regard the two are incompatible.

I would say the gospel suffers when people confuse their culture, and that includes their government, with Christianity.

Have a blessed day.

Let me assure you there is no confusion. Conservatives do not lead dual lives. We hold to one life that encompasses Faith in Jesus Christ on all things. To do otherwise would be hypocritical. And looking back through history we can see how liberalism has destroyed institutions like Harvard, Princeton, and even recently Stetson. Liberalism (moderatism) always works to draw people away from Christ and scripture never towards it.

 

[just-want-peace]

I understand the OP and sympathize with the OP...
But

In America it is impossible to seperate the citizen from the Government.
WE are the Government.
So we have a responsibility to govern.

NOW.. How should a Christian govern?
Should we throw out our Christian ideals when we do?
NO.

As someone said earlier, we don't have the luxury of seperating our secular lives from our Christianity. We don't have split personalities.
So, when a Christian approaches the subject of politics or enters the realm of public service that Christian MUST bring his ideals along.
If he doesn't .. if a person can lay Christ down for a little while... then that person doesn't understand Christianity.

To sum up my view.
I am a Christian... first an foremost.. this controls my worldview.
I am an American.
Since being an American, I am part of the governing body.
As part of the governing body, I cannot lay aside Christianity to govern.
So therefore my Christian values and morals will control how I govern.
Everything I do, I do unto the Lord (can't think of the verse, but I am sure someone can)
EVERYTHING...

So I CANNOT vote for someone that supports and promotes things that directly oppose the Word of God. i.e. abortion, homosexual marriage, stealing (taking money from hard working people to give to people who refuse to work), promoting sex outside the bounds of marriage (planned parenthood), mistrust in God (Global warming ~ God is in control of the Earth.. not Al Gore)

God decided to place me here. I see it as a stewardship issue.
All Christians should make sure that Godly principles are in place around them.
And as part of the governing body in America.. all Christians are called to support Christianity in America.

Excellent post TT!

I have been trying to get my thoughts to post, and when I read yours I realized all I needed to do was quote yours, as it spoke my feelings pretty accurately!!

To be patriotic and a Christian are not mutually exclusive, as some would surreptitiously imply.

To be blindly patriotic and a Christian would be mutually exclusive.

The prevalent liberal view (IMHO) seems to me to be that we must support this president regardless --. True or not, that is the impression I get.

I consider myself very patriotic, but I will never support much of the agenda of either party, but I will be supportive of my country in all areas where she IS acting in a Christ-like manner.

Of course this means that I am definitely a NON-SUPPORTER of the present POTUS and the liberals, seeing as how they are so anti-Christ-like in so many of their policies.

I was only a partial supporter of the past POTUS because much of his agenda, IMHO, was anti-Christ and anti-American; but far less than today's POTUS.

Bottom line - no problem being a "nationalist" as long as the "nationalism" is subservient to the Christianity!

 

[Crabtownboy]

Let me assure you there is no confusion. Conservatives do not lead dual lives. We hold to one life that encompasses Faith in Jesus Christ on all things. To do otherwise would be hypocritical. And looking back through history we can see how liberalism has destroyed institutions like Harvard, Princeton, and even recently Stetson. Liberalism (moderatism) always works to draw people away from Christ and scripture never towards it.

You are right in saying that our faith should be in Christ in all things? No question about that. And, if we confuse our government with Christianity we are not putting our full faith in Christ

However your reply, quoted above is off topic. The topic is can a Christian be a Nationalist? It is not a topic about being liberal or conservative, it is about being Christian. Your reply would be one for another topic. So, reply to my former reply within the context of the real topic. To do otherwise is to be intellectually dishonest.

 

[Crabtownboy]

To be blindly patriotic and a Christian would be mutually exclusive.

You are correct.

The prevalent liberal view (IMHO) seems to me to be that we must support this president regardless --. True or not, that is the impression I get.

There may be some who hold this view. I do not.

However to be honest there were large numbers of conservatives in this country and on this board who had that exact attitude toward the president who just returned to Texas. During those years to criticize him or his administration brought very harsh words of being disloyal and not Christian.

Works in both directions.

It appears that no matter who is in power or what his/her politics are they will be loved by some and hated by others and the same attitudes will swing back and forth with the ultra-loyal or the ultra-haters.

Bottom line - no problem being a "nationalist" as long as the "nationalism" is subservient to the Christianity

Substitute patriotic in place of nationalism and I have no problem with your statement. Guess because of the Nazis the word "nationalism" carried a lot of weight in my mind. And NO, I am not saying that Christians in America who hold strong nationalistic views are Nazis. But I do see the danger of nationalism and of people confusing following Christ with Nationalism.

 

[Revmitchell]

You are right in saying that our faith should be in Christ in all things? No question about that. And, if we confuse our government with Christianity we are not putting our full faith in Christ

However your reply, quoted above is off topic. The topic is can a Christian be a Nationalist? It is not a topic about being liberal or conservative, it is about being Christian. Your reply would be one for another topic. So, reply to my former reply within the context of the real topic. To do otherwise is to be intellectually dishonest.

It seems you have trouble identifying what is on topic. That is my response to what you posted. I cannot help it if you do not like the response. This mythical "confusion" is a false liberal argument that has no substance. This country was founded on biblical principles. It was not the secular that you claim. Nor do I hold that government must be secular. For that excludes God in all its endeavors and I will not.