Can we discuss Kenosis?

[Skandelon]

Goinheix,

I think you have taken a good point of discussion regarding how Christ "emptied" himself to become "fully man" to such an extreme that you have stepped over the line into clearly false doctrine. (most assuredly not Baptist doctrine)

As jbh and others have explained Jesus was "in very nature God," and while you appear to support that by saying "Jesus was God," you go on to argue that in the incarnation he left ALL divine characteristics except that which would be granted to any "man of God," (such as a Prophet or apostle). While a biblical case could be made for this aspect of your view, I believe you step into grave error when you begin to bring into question the "nature" of Jesus. While his divine characteristics (such as omnipresence or omniscience) may have been "emptied" through the incarnation that doesn't mean He has "no divine qualities" or doesn't remains fully divine, which is what you appear to be arguing.

Maybe your choice of terminology was poorly chosen and you can clarify your intent regarding the nature of Christ?

 

[Goinheix]

You only report posts that are against the rules, not post that you disagree with. Also, you are advocating that Jesus didn't have any divine attributes. I don't believe you want any attention from the administrators on your posts.

I have been reporting false acusations and insults. To insinuating that I teach heressy is an insult. Falselly acusing me of teaching that Jesus is not God is not a good behavoir.

Now tell me ... why shall I be scared or concerned of the adminiators attention?
No where in the entire Bible we read that Jesus had any divine atribute.
Instead we read that he did emtied out, and we read of Jesus clearly not having several divine atributes.
There is not one of the "fathers" of the church stating that Jesus had any divine atribute.
There is not any Creed stablishing that Jesus had any divine atribute.
No one of the reformers did write a statement of Jesus having any divine atribute.

What is so wrong for me coinciding with all of them?

 

[Goinheix]

Jesus walked on the water. Peter also walked on the water. "Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus. 30 But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, “Lord, save me!” " How would Peter "sink" if it was on the high grounds.

I will come back on that specific issue.

 

[Goinheix]

What about Matthew's account in ch. 14 where he invites Peter to walk on the water, as well? Was Jesus just walking around the coast on the high grounds then? How can you deny this?

I will be back on that very shortly

 

[Goinheix]

I don't get it. On one hand you say Jesus is God...but He does not possess a single divine attribute. How can this be?

Being God is not having divine atributes.

 

[Goinheix]

He was sinless.

Can you found any verse saying that to be sinless is a divine atribute?

 

[Goinheix]

Sir,
Before responding to you, I took care to look at several different bible versions, and several different commentaries. They all stated that Jesus walked upon the water. Your view that He walked around the water is not stated in scripture, and is not echoed in any of the commentaries that I consulted.

Some versions state that He walked on the water; some versions state that He walked upon the water. You are the only one I've ever seen that espouses that He walked around the water.

The miracle here is that while He was walking upon the sea, Peter asked to walk out with Him; but when he focused on the troubled waters, he began to sink into the water. This further solidifies the fact that you are, sir, blatantly wrong with your understanding of this passage and this miracle.

Thus, you are denying scripture. I have not falsely accused you of anything. I have merely stated a fact, that you yourself have borne out with your own words.

I can see that Jesus wlaking or not over the water is a great thing. This thread is about kenosis and hypostasis. Even Jesus walked over the water, it does not mean he had any divine atribute. Then for the only porpose of this thread I accept that Jesus did walked over the water. Jesus did in fact walk over the water and yet means nothing concerning Jesus suposed divine atributes.

Situation remain unchanged: Jesus did not have any divine atribute.

(In a pararlel threat i will discuss if Jesus walked over the water)

 

[Tom Bryant]

Maybe here's some Scripture for you to think about.
John 19:28 - Affter this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, *said, “I am thirsty.”

Matthew 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, “Why are you thinking evil in your hearts?

Jesus knew their thoughts. This is an attribute of God.

Mark 2:28 - So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.

Being Lord is an obvious attribute of God.

These are just a few where Jesus showed the attributes of God while on earth yet you said:

No where in the entire Bible we read that Jesus had any divine atribute.

 

[DHK]

Can you found any verse saying that to be sinless is a divine atribute?

You lack in your understanding of Scripture.
Here in post #26 you say:

I have declare hundred times that Jesus is God.

If Jesus is God, God has all divine attributes. That is who God is--one who has all divine attributes. He lacks nothing.

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; (Acts 17:24-25)

Here Paul clearly said that God has need of nothing. He doesn't lack anything. He is Lord of heaven and earth. All divine attributes belong to Him. Who is He?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:3)
In him was life; and the life was the light of men. (John 1:4)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

Christ is the Word. The Word is God. John beheld him for he lived among them. He is the Creator. In him is life. He is the light of all men.

This is Jesus; the Christ; the Son of the living God; God Himself of whom all divine attributes are His.

 

[Goinheix]

Goinheix reported this post, it was said he was "talking against Jesus".

He is. This is false doctrine and must be reproved.

You base your acusation in the fact that your doctrine is different of mine. Can you quote a verse, or a creed, or a statement of faith supporting your position and declaring mine as false doctrine?

 

[Goinheix]

Did you not read my post about reporting posts? You clearly deny biblical teaching that Christ was and is divine. You are the head of your own campaign in being banned as this is clearly NOT the beliefs of a true Christ follower. Repent.

you are reported againg.

you falsely say that i denay that Christ was and is divine. i have never ever say that.

 

[Skandelon]

I can not found a single divine atribute in Jesus...but you all do. Please share at least one.

A. Christ has SELF-EXISTENT life.

John 1:4 "In Him was life"
John 14:6 "I am the Life"
Acts 3:15 "the Prince (Author) of life"

B. Christ is ETERNAL.

Isaiah 9:6 "the everlasting Father" (or "the Father of eternity")
Micah 5:2 "whose goings forth have been of old, from everlasting"
Compare John 8:35; John 8:58; 1 John 1:2; 1 John 5:11.

C. Christ is UNCHANGEABLE.

Hebrews 1:10-12 "but thou art the same"
Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever"

D. Christ is OMNIPRESENT.

See Matthew 28:20

E. Christ is OMNISCIENT.

See John 2:24-25 (compare Jeremiah 17:9-10);
John 6:64; 16:30; Colossians 2:3.
Examples:
Matthew 17:24-27
Luke 5:22
John 1:48
John 4:16-19
John 21:6

F. Christ is OMNIPOTENT.

See John 5:19
Philippians 3:20-21
Revelation 1:8 with Revelation 22:12-13 for identification.
Examples: Luke 4:39; Matthew 8:26-27; Mark 5:12-13; Luke 7:14-15; John 2:19-22

G. Christ is PERFECT.

(the term "perfect" as used in Scripture generally means "complete, nothing lacking")
See Colossians 1:19
Colossians 2:9-10

H. Christ is INFINITE.

See John 10:28
Ephesians 3:8
Colossians 2:3

I. Christ is INCOMPREHENSIBLE.

See Matthew 11:27
Ephesians 3:8
Ephesians 3:19

J. Christ is HOLY.

See Luke 1:35
Acts 3:14

K. Christ is TRUE.

See John 14:6
Revelation 3:7

L. Christ is LOVE.

See John 13:1
Romans 8:35-39
Ephesians 3:19
1 John 3:16 ASV

M. Christ is RIGHTEOUS.

See 2 Timothy 4:8
1 John 2:1

N. Christ is FAITHFUL.

See Revelation 3:14
Revelation 19:11

O. Christ is MERCIFUL.

See Jude 21
James 5:11 with 5:8 for identification

CONCLUSION – ATTRIBUTES

John 16:15 – "All things that the Father hath are mine" (every attribute that belongs to the Father belongs to Christ)

John 17:6 – Jesus prayed, "I have manifested Thy Name" (the "Name" of God as used in Scripture refers to God's character, that is, all that God is. Hence Jesus is saying, "I have shown what kind of a God You are. I have put Your Character on display.")

The Bible clearly teaches that in Christ all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form (see COLOSSIANS 2:9). LINK HERE>>>

 

[Goinheix]

????

.....and this caused Nathanael to exclaim, "Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel"?

I think not.

Let say that Jesus had some supernatural ability to search into peoples mind, hart and soul. Is that proving his omniscience? No. That is proving some superior level of knowledge.

Jesus clearly did not know everityng. Jesus - for example - did not know who touched him. You can tell me about thousands things Jesus knew; but he didnt knew who touched him. That is a definatly prove of him not being omniscient.

 

[Goinheix]

Jesus Christ was fully God(possessed ALL of the divine attributes) and fully man. It could also be said that Jesus had 2 natures. A divine nature(which he had) and then he "took on flesh" meaning that he took on a human nature. So Jesus is not 50% man and 50% God, but 100% man and 100% God because Jesus had 100% divine characteristics(nature) and 100% human characteristics (nature).

Philippians 2:6-7
"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!"

Jesus(the "Who") was "in very nature God"
Jesus took on the "nature of a servant, being made in human likeness."
So Jesus has the nature God and the nature human. Jesus humbled himself to add(not change) on a human nature.



It's nice isn't it. Wish it would happen more often.

Jesus did not have any of the divine atributes. Can you found any one on Jesus? No. Then, your statement is wrong.

Philipians is teaching that God the Son did emptied of what?

 

[Tom Bryant]

Let say that Jesus had some supernatural ability to search into peoples mind, hart and soul. Is that proving his omniscience? No. That is proving some superior level of knowledge.

Jesus clearly did not know everityng. Jesus - for example - did not know who touched him. You can tell me about thousands things Jesus knew; but he didnt knew who touched him. That is a definatly prove of him not being omniscient.

Your reasoning is faulty. If this proves that Jesus was not omniscient, then Genesis 3:9 proves that God is not omniscient, because he asked "Where are you?" to Adam.

You fail to understand that Rabbi's in those days asked questions not because they did not know, but because they wanted people to think about the answer. It was another method of teaching.

 

[Goinheix]

Originally Posted by Goinheix
I can not found a single divine atribute in Jesus...but you all do. Please share at least one.

Goinheix I answered your question. What is your response?
He was sinless.

Why do you think that being sinless is a divine atribute?

 

[mandym]

Let say that Jesus had some supernatural ability to search into peoples mind, hart and soul. Is that proving his omniscience? No. That is proving some superior level of knowledge.

Jesus clearly did not know everityng. Jesus - for example - did not know who touched him. You can tell me about thousands things Jesus knew; but he didnt knew who touched him. That is a definatly prove of him not being omniscient.

Do you think God did not know before this:

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

 

[Goinheix]

Goinheix- IMHO you should be limited to posting in the unbeliever's forum since you obviously don't believe Jesus is God- calling yourself a 'Baptist' notwithstanding.

An honest seeker would have already understood that their question has been answered several times and moved on instead of continuing to stir the pot.

Your post have been reported. You are not aloud of saying that i am a nonbeliever.

My questions have not been answered not even a sigle time.

 

[Skandelon]

Goinheix,

If you happened along a major league pitcher playing in his back yard with his daughter and saw him pitch her a slow under handed soft ball would you conclude that the pitcher had no major league qualities or gifts? Of course not.

You'd know that he was choosing to limit his abilities in order for his daughter to engage with him in a game he loves. So too, because we see Christ choosing to limit his attributes while engaging man within time and space we cannot merely assume He has no divine nature or complete access to all divine attributes. Even scripture acknowledges that he could call the angles to his side, but he chooses not to. This is an important distinction.

 

[Goinheix]

Goinheix,

I think you have taken a good point of discussion regarding how Christ "emptied" himself to become "fully man" to such an extreme that you have stepped over the line into clearly false doctrine. (most assuredly not Baptist doctrine)

?

Can you post any baptist statement of faith, any baptist doctrine declaring that Jesus kept/had all divine atributes. My doctrine is not at all against any christian creed, not agaist any baptist statement of faith.