Can we discuss Kenosis?

[jbh28]

A. Christ has SELF-EXISTENT life.

John 1:4 "In Him was life"
John 14:6 "I am the Life"
Acts 3:15 "the Prince (Author) of life"

B. Christ is ETERNAL.

Isaiah 9:6 "the everlasting Father" (or "the Father of eternity")
Micah 5:2 "whose goings forth have been of old, from everlasting"
Compare John 8:35; John 8:58; 1 John 1:2; 1 John 5:11.

C. Christ is UNCHANGEABLE.

Hebrews 1:10-12 "but thou art the same"
Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever"

D. Christ is OMNIPRESENT.

See Matthew 28:20

E. Christ is OMNISCIENT.

See John 2:24-25 (compare Jeremiah 17:9-10);
John 6:64; 16:30; Colossians 2:3.
Examples:
Matthew 17:24-27
Luke 5:22
John 1:48
John 4:16-19
John 21:6

F. Christ is OMNIPOTENT.

See John 5:19
Philippians 3:20-21
Revelation 1:8 with Revelation 22:12-13 for identification.
Examples: Luke 4:39; Matthew 8:26-27; Mark 5:12-13; Luke 7:14-15; John 2:19-22

G. Christ is PERFECT.

(the term "perfect" as used in Scripture generally means "complete, nothing lacking")
See Colossians 1:19
Colossians 2:9-10

H. Christ is INFINITE.

See John 10:28
Ephesians 3:8
Colossians 2:3

I. Christ is INCOMPREHENSIBLE.

See Matthew 11:27
Ephesians 3:8
Ephesians 3:19

J. Christ is HOLY.

See Luke 1:35
Acts 3:14

K. Christ is TRUE.

See John 14:6
Revelation 3:7

L. Christ is LOVE.

See John 13:1
Romans 8:35-39
Ephesians 3:19
1 John 3:16 ASV

M. Christ is RIGHTEOUS.

See 2 Timothy 4:8
1 John 2:1

N. Christ is FAITHFUL.

See Revelation 3:14
Revelation 19:11

O. Christ is MERCIFUL.

See Jude 21
James 5:11 with 5:8 for identification

CONCLUSION – ATTRIBUTES

John 16:15 – "All things that the Father hath are mine" (every attribute that belongs to the Father belongs to Christ)

John 17:6 – Jesus prayed, "I have manifested Thy Name" (the "Name" of God as used in Scripture refers to God's character, that is, all that God is. Hence Jesus is saying, "I have shown what kind of a God You are. I have put Your Character on display.")

The Bible clearly teaches that in Christ all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form (see COLOSSIANS 2:9). LINK HERE>>>

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

Can you post any baptist statement of faith, any baptist doctrine declaring that Jesus kept/had all divine atributes. My doctrine is not at all against any christian creed, not agaist any baptist statement of faith.

Besides the list of divine qualities and versus I just listed I'll add the Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the SBC:

B. God the Son:

Christ is the eternal Son of God. In His incarnation as Jesus Christ He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. Jesus perfectly revealed and did the will of God, taking upon Himself human nature with its demands and necessities and identifying Himself completely with mankind yet without sin. He honored the divine law by His personal obedience, and in His substitutionary death on the cross He made provision for the redemption of men from sin. He was raised from the dead with a glorified body and appeared to His disciples as the person who was with them before His crucifixion. He ascended into heaven and is now exalted at the right hand of God where He is the One Mediator, fully God, fully man, in whose Person is effected the reconciliation between God and man. He will return in power and glory to judge the world and to consummate His redemptive mission. He now dwells in all believers as the living and ever present Lord.

Genesis 18:1ff.; Psalms 2:7ff.; 110:1ff.; Isaiah 7:14; 53; Matthew 1:18-23; 3:17; 8:29; 11:27; 14:33; 16:16,27; 17:5; 27; 28:1-6,19; Mark 1:1; 3:11; Luke 1:35; 4:41; 22:70; 24:46; John 1:1-18,29; 10:30,38; 11:25-27; 12:44-50; 14:7-11; 16:15-16,28; 17:1-5, 21-22; 20:1-20,28; Acts 1:9; 2:22-24; 7:55-56; 9:4-5,20; Romans 1:3-4; 3:23-26; 5:6-21; 8:1-3,34; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2:2; 8:6; 15:1-8,24-28; 2 Corinthians 5:19-21; 8:9; Galatians 4:4-5; Ephesians 1:20; 3:11; 4:7-10; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:13-22; 2:9; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Timothy 2:5-6; 3:16; Titus 2:13-14; Hebrews 1:1-3; 4:14-15; 7:14-28; 9:12-15,24-28; 12:2; 13:8; 1 Peter 2:21-25; 3:22; 1 John 1:7-9; 3:2; 4:14-15; 5:9; 2 John 7-9; Revelation 1:13-16; 5:9-14; 12:10-11; 13:8; 19:16.

I can't get through the first sentence before I find a divine attribute. How many non-divine people are eternally existent? And go on to the second sentence: How many non-divine people you know who were born of a virgin? Need I go on?

 

[Goinheix]

Goinheix,

As jbh and others have explained Jesus was "in very nature God," and while you appear to support that by saying "Jesus was God," you go on to argue that in the incarnation he left ALL divine characteristics except that which would be granted to any "man of God," (such as a Prophet or apostle). While a biblical case could be made for this aspect of your view, I believe you step into grave error when you begin to bring into question the "nature" of Jesus. While his divine characteristics (such as omnipresence or omniscience) may have been "emptied" through the incarnation that doesn't mean He has "no divine qualities" or doesn't remains fully divine, which is what you appear to be arguing.

Maybe your choice of terminology was poorly chosen and you can clarify your intent regarding the nature of Christ?

Lets try again.

God is God because he is God. Divine atributes dont make God to be God. There is not any difficulty on God the Son emtying himself of all divine atributes and remain being God. Jesus is God in the only way he can be God, fully, totally, absolutely, ilimitely... But he did not have any one of the divine atributes. That is ok because God to be God dont depent on having or not having divine atributes.

What i mean by divine atributes?
Omnisciuense -Jesus was fully God and yet not omniscient.
Omnipotent - Jesus was fully God and yet not omnipotent.

You can prepare a list of God atributes; and you will found out that Jesus did not have any of them.

IMPORTANT QUESTION:
Can i offer an analogy? I am afread that my analogy will be taken as an excuse to make moke of what i learn in the Bible. It is possible that my teaching be ridiculized saying that it is something proper of a comic book. Because my analogy is with comic books.

Can i offer an analogy on comics characters? it will be for clarifying, not for proving.

 

[Goinheix]

Maybe here's some Scripture for you to think about.
John 19:28 - Affter this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, *said, “I am thirsty.”

Matthew 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, “Why are you thinking evil in your hearts?

Jesus knew their thoughts. This is an attribute of God.

Mark 2:28 - So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.

Being Lord is an obvious attribute of God.

These are just a few where Jesus showed the attributes of God while on earth yet you said:

Knowing the thoughts is not a divine atribute. You can not found that in any list of divine atributes. But not knowing - for example - where was placed Lazarus is a clear sign of not having the divine atribute of omniscience.

Jesus didnt knew all things; he knew that all things have been acomplished.

Being lord is not a divine atribute. You can not found it in any list of the divine atributes. Isnt satan lord of this world?

 

[Tom Bryant]

You really must be a lawyer, because you are certainly not an orthodox theologian.

 

[Goinheix]

You lack in your understanding of Scripture.
Here in post #26 you say:

If Jesus is God, God has all divine attributes. That is who God is--one who has all divine attributes. He lacks nothing.

God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; (Acts 17:24-25)

Here Paul clearly said that God has need of nothing. He doesn't lack anything. He is Lord of heaven and earth. All divine attributes belong to Him. Who is He?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:3)
In him was life; and the life was the light of men. (John 1:4)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)

Christ is the Word. The Word is God. John beheld him for he lived among them. He is the Creator. In him is life. He is the light of all men.

This is Jesus; the Christ; the Son of the living God; God Himself of whom all divine attributes are His.

Please dont make statement as i have lack of understanding. that atitude can be reported.

Yes God (Father) have all the divine atributes. He (God) is not a colection of divine atributes; he is God and have - besides being God - all divine atributes. Having all divine atributes, God the Son did emtied out of all of them. And despite being demptied of all divine atributes God the Son continues to be God, because being God is not about God have or not have. God is God despite and besides what he have or not have.

 

[Goinheix]

A. Christ has SELF-EXISTENT life.

John 1:4 "In Him was life"
John 14:6 "I am the Life"
Acts 3:15 "the Prince (Author) of life"

B. Christ is ETERNAL.

Isaiah 9:6 "the everlasting Father" (or "the Father of eternity")
Micah 5:2 "whose goings forth have been of old, from everlasting"
Compare John 8:35; John 8:58; 1 John 1:2; 1 John 5:11.

C. Christ is UNCHANGEABLE.

Hebrews 1:10-12 "but thou art the same"
Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, and today and forever"

D. Christ is OMNIPRESENT.

See Matthew 28:20

E. Christ is OMNISCIENT.

See John 2:24-25 (compare Jeremiah 17:9-10);
John 6:64; 16:30; Colossians 2:3.
Examples:
Matthew 17:24-27
Luke 5:22
John 1:48
John 4:16-19
John 21:6

F. Christ is OMNIPOTENT.

See John 5:19
Philippians 3:20-21
Revelation 1:8 with Revelation 22:12-13 for identification.
Examples: Luke 4:39; Matthew 8:26-27; Mark 5:12-13; Luke 7:14-15; John 2:19-22

G. Christ is PERFECT.

(the term "perfect" as used in Scripture generally means "complete, nothing lacking")
See Colossians 1:19
Colossians 2:9-10

H. Christ is INFINITE.

See John 10:28
Ephesians 3:8
Colossians 2:3

I. Christ is INCOMPREHENSIBLE.

See Matthew 11:27
Ephesians 3:8
Ephesians 3:19

J. Christ is HOLY.

See Luke 1:35
Acts 3:14

K. Christ is TRUE.

See John 14:6
Revelation 3:7

L. Christ is LOVE.

See John 13:1
Romans 8:35-39
Ephesians 3:19
1 John 3:16 ASV

M. Christ is RIGHTEOUS.

See 2 Timothy 4:8
1 John 2:1

N. Christ is FAITHFUL.

See Revelation 3:14
Revelation 19:11

O. Christ is MERCIFUL.

See Jude 21
James 5:11 with 5:8 for identification

CONCLUSION – ATTRIBUTES

John 16:15 – "All things that the Father hath are mine" (every attribute that belongs to the Father belongs to Christ)

John 17:6 – Jesus prayed, "I have manifested Thy Name" (the "Name" of God as used in Scripture refers to God's character, that is, all that God is. Hence Jesus is saying, "I have shown what kind of a God You are. I have put Your Character on display.")

The Bible clearly teaches that in Christ all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form (see COLOSSIANS 2:9). LINK HERE>>>

Thanks for your participayion. It is quite boring keep saying that Jesus is God etc. etc. You are adding new things to be analiced. Thank.

When I say that Jesus have not divine atributes I refer to God the Son who emptied of all divine atributes and entered the world as Jesus. It is quite clear that God the Son had all divine atributes before he emtied out, and that he have it back after ascencion. Proving that God the Son have this or that divine atribute is not in question. The question refers solely to the period of Jesus being in Earth. The most of the verses you quote refers to God the Son, but not in the period when he was emptied of all divine atributes being only Jesus.

I will apreciate if you make yourself a filter on your contribution and select those verses refering explicity to Jesus.

Thank

 

[Goinheix]

Your reasoning is faulty. If this proves that Jesus was not omniscient, then Genesis 3:9 proves that God is not omniscient, because he asked "Where are you?" to Adam.

You fail to understand that Rabbi's in those days asked questions not because they did not know, but because they wanted people to think about the answer. It was another method of teaching.

In the case of the woman that touches him, Jesus not only did ask who it was, but he was looking aroud trying to figure out. But offcourse you will say that it was a kind of acting or so.

What about the drink that one soldier brought to Jesus. Jesus had to tate it in order to know what it was. How do you explain that?

 

[Skandelon]

Are you then attempting to argue that Jesus had access or COULD have utilized his divine attributes, but chose not to do so while being in human form?

For example, he could have called down the angels, but chose not to? He could have know the time and hour of his return, but chose not to? He could have known who touch his garment, but chose not to? etc etc

Or are you saying He simply didn't have these abilities any longer as a man?

 

[Goinheix]

Do you think God did not know before this:

I will not leave the thread to discuss precognition of God or predestination. Did God knew of failure of Satan, of failing of Eve and Adam? That is not my intention to discuss. We can say that God - with thouse words - was aproving Abraham. I dont care now.

But the case of Jesus is not him asking question like where is Lazarus body, or who you say i am. Probably those questions can be made by an omniscient Jesus. I agree. But Jesus - for example - did not know what it was give to drink at the cross. That is absolutely clear.

 

[Goinheix]

Goinheix,

If you happened along a major league pitcher playing in his back yard with his daughter and saw him pitch her a slow under handed soft ball would you conclude that the pitcher had no major league qualities or gifts? Of course not.

You'd know that he was choosing to limit his abilities in order for his daughter to engage with him in a game he loves. So too, because we see Christ choosing to limit his attributes while engaging man within time and space we cannot merely assume He has no divine nature or complete access to all divine attributes. Even scripture acknowledges that he could call the angles to his side, but he chooses not to. This is an important distinction.

Paul say that he emptied (totally) his divine atributes. Where do you read that Jesus was limiting them????????

 

[Goinheix]

Are you then attempting to argue that Jesus had access or COULD have utilized his divine attributes, but chose not to do so while being in human form?

For example, he could have called down the angels, but chose not to? He could have know the time and hour of his return, but chose not to? He could have known who touch his garment, but chose not to? etc etc

Or are you saying He simply didn't have these abilities any longer as a man?

I say - the Bible say - that he choose not to have these abilities while being man. While being man - that is being Jesus - he had not these abilities at hand.

I see you post an analogy..can i... will it be concider just an analogy for helping to explain and nothing more?

 

[DHK]

Paul say that he emptied (totally) his divine atributes. Where do you read that Jesus was limiting them????????

It does not say he emptied himself. You say that.

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (Philippians 2:7)

It says he made himself of no reputation. He took the form of a servant. He was made in the likeness of men. He did not empty himself of anything. Other translations are deficient in this. This gives a better sense of what happened when Christ came to earth.

As God he came like man--in the form of a servant.
As God he made himself of no reputation. He grew up the son of a carpenter, having no reputation in the community, choosing not to exercise his divine attributes. He did not empty himself of anything. He chose not to use the divine attributes that he did have.
He was made in the likeness of men. He was God, having all the attributes of God, but made in the likeness of man.

Your premise is faulty. You repeat it over and over again like a mantra. You build upon it a false doctrine. But you have built upon a false premise. It does not say that he emptied himself of anything.

 

[Goinheix]

You really must be a lawyer, because you are certainly not an orthodox theologian.

Please quote any orthodox theologian (I mean a recognized man as Luther, Calvin, Wesley, ...) stating that Jesus had all divine atributes.

 

[Goinheix]

Besides the list of divine qualities and versus I just listed I'll add the Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the SBC:



I can't get through the first sentence before I find a divine attribute. How many non-divine people are eternally existent? And go on to the second sentence: How many non-divine people you know who were born of a virgin? Need I go on?

I can see that I was saying, the supposed divine atributes of Jesus are not part of any Baptist statement of faith.

The first sentence is refering Christ, God the Son, not to Jesus.
Being born of a virgin is not a divine atribute. If it were, then the Father and the Holy Spirit were not God since they are not born of a virgin.
Is Jesus God? Yes that is my teaching. Is him fully God? Yes there is not other way to be God. That is my teaching.

I am missing something because that statement say litle about Jesus and nothing about his suposed divine atributes.

My teaching is not contrary to any Baptist or Christian statement of faith or creed.

 

[Goinheix]

It does not say he emptied himself. You say that.

But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (Philippians 2:7)

It says he made himself of no reputation. He took the form of a servant. He was made in the likeness of men. He did not empty himself of anything. Other translations are deficient in this. This gives a better sense of what happened when Christ came to earth.

As God he came like man--in the form of a servant.
As God he made himself of no reputation. He grew up the son of a carpenter, having no reputation in the community, choosing not to exercise his divine attributes. He did not empty himself of anything. He chose not to use the divine attributes that he did have.
He was made in the likeness of men. He was God, having all the attributes of God, but made in the likeness of man.

Your premise is faulty. You repeat it over and over again like a mantra. You build upon it a false doctrine. But you have built upon a false premise. It does not say that he emptied himself of anything.

You are quoting KJV a bad translation of the greek text. In original greek say kenosis wich is emtying. Everybody agree that Philipiand must be translated as emtied.

 

[Skandelon]

Please quote any orthodox theologian (I mean a recognized man as Luther, Calvin, Wesley, ...) stating that Jesus had all divine atributes.

CAn you quote any stating, as you have, that he has none?

 

[Mexdeaf]

This is akin to Kenneth Copeland's false teaching.

 

[DHK]

Please dont make statement as i have lack of understanding. that atitude can be reported.

Yes God (Father) have all the divine atributes. He (God) is not a colection of divine atributes; he is God and have - besides being God - all divine atributes. Having all divine atributes, God the Son did emtied out of all of them. And despite being demptied of all divine atributes God the Son continues to be God, because being God is not about God have or not have. God is God despite and besides what he have or not have.

God is God. Jesus Christ is God. If Jesus Christ does not have all the divine attributes of God, then Jesus Christ is not God, and you have denied that Jesus Christ is God. He never emptied himself of anything.

 

[DHK]

You are quoting KJV a bad translation of the greek text. In original greek say kenosis wich is emtying. Everybody agree that Philipiand must be translated as emtied.

That is your opinion. I believe you are wrong. Everybody does not agree. I am not everybody.