Can we lose our salvation and eternal life?

[canadyjd]

Absolutely this is only for God's Sheep who are defined as all those who believe and follow God's Word *JOHN 3:15-21; JOHN 10:1-4; JOHN 10:26-27

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word) and follow Him. Those who do not believe and follow are not God's Sheep.

In John 10:26-27, Jesus tells unbelievers "You do not believe because you are not of my sheep" Notice He doesn't tell them they are not His sheep because they don't believe, as you are saying, He tells them they don't believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep. Your definition of the sheep as those who believe and follow His Word is contrary to this passage and what follows.

He goes on to say He calls His sheep by name. This is not a general call to all sheep and those that hear and follow become His sheep, no, He specifically calls His sheep by name. They are already His sheep when He makes the call and His sheep will follow Him. He gives His sheep eternal life that cannot be lost because they are in His hands and the hands of His Father.

You have misread the passage.

Peace to you.

 

[Rockson]

I agree.
Your doctrine is not sound, and you are preaching that a man cooperates with God in order to gain His favor.
That is works, not grace.

You were talking to 3rd Angel but it all depends how your defining your terms. The WHOLE human race obtained the favor of God in that ALL can be saved. Doesn't mean ALL will. Your camping out on the spot which says even merely believing and receiving from God constitutes "works" I'm sorry but such is your Calvinism going amiss. Paul's usage of the term "not by works" in context is about seeking to be saved by the keeping of the law or a moral code with perfection. Simply believing and coming into agreement with what God says about identifying with Christ IS NOT trying to be saved through the keeping of the law.

Man's efforts and God's efforts combined, results in polluting His grace ( Romans 11:5-6 ).

Or is it rather you doing so when you won't acknowledge man's part that's required to believe and receive and identify with Christ? And also consider. You present this false charge of what Non-Calvinists do but how about you? Do YOU not believe a sinner NEEDS to repent? Jesus said "Repent and believe the gospel!" Mark 1:15 That language usage demands that's an exhortation for one to carry out an act to place one into a different state.

 

[Revmitchell]

YYour camping out on the spot which says even merely believing and receiving from God constitutes "works" I'm sorry but such is your Calvinism going amiss. Paul's usage of the term "not by works" in context is about seeking to be saved by the keeping of the law or a moral code with perfection. Simply believing and coming into agreement with what God says about identifying with Christ IS NOT trying to be saved through the keeping of the law.

Boom! And its time to drop the mic!

 

[37818]

Nope! Being one of God's sheep is CONDITIONAL on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's WORD. Those who are not God's Sheep do not hear His Voice as shown in the CONTEXT you leave out...

JOHN 10:1-4 [1], Truly, truly, I say to you, He that enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. [2], But he that enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. [3], To him the porter opens; and THE SHEEP (believers) HEAR HIS VOICE (the Word of God): and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. [4], And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes before them, and THE SHEEP FOLLOW HIM: for THEY HEAR HIS VOICE (the Word).

JOHN 10:26-28 [26], But YOU BELIEVE NOT (unbelievers), BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT OF MY SHEEP (believers), as I said to you.

Note: Those who BELIEVE are God's SHEEP while those who DO NOT BELIEVE are NOT God's Sheep.

[27], MY SHEEP (believers) HEAR MY VOICE (the Word of God), and I know them, and THEY FOLLOW ME: [28], And I give to THEM (believers) ETERNAL LIFE; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

NEED MORE SCRIPTURE?

MATTHEW 10:38 And HE THAT TAKES NOT HIS CROSS AND FOLLOWS ME IS NOT WORTHY OF ME.

JOHN 8:12 Then spoke Jesus again to them, saying, I am the light of the world: HE THAT FOLLOWS ME shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

MATTHEW 4:20-22 [20] And THEY (those disciples who believed) straightway left their nets, and FOLLOWED HIM. [21], And going on from there, he saw other two brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and HE CALLED THEM. [22], And they immediately left the ship and their father, and FOLLOWED HIM.

MATTHEW 19:27-28 [27], Then answered Peter and said to him, Behold, WE HAVE FORSAKEN ALL AND FOLLOWED YOU; what shall we have, therefore? [28], And Jesus said to them, Truly I say to you, That you which have FOLLOWED ME, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, you also shall sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

JOHN 10:1-4 [1], Truly, truly, I say to you, He that enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. [2], But he that enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. [3], To him the porter opens; and THE SHEEP (believers) HEAR HIS VOICE (the Word of God): and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. [4], And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes before them, and THE SHEEP FOLLOW HIM: for THEY HEAR HIS VOICE (the Word).

JOHN 10:26-28 [26], But you believe not (unbelievers), because you are not of my sheep (believers), as I said to you. [27], My sheep (believers) hear my voice (the Word of God), and I know them, and THEY FOLLOW ME: [28], And I give to them (believers) eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Those who have saving faith believe and follow God’s Word.

Being one of the sheep is the condition in order to be a believer.

 

[Revmitchell]

Being one of the sheep is the condition in order to be a believer.

Wrong it is the result of being a believer

 

[37818]

Can we lose our salvation and eternal life?

Yes. Buy not getting saved. John 3:3, ". . . Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . ." And the promise that God makes to those whom He saves, ". . . And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. . . ." -- Hebrews 10:17. And God cannot lie, Titus 1:2; 1 John 5:9-13, verse 12 says, ". . . He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. . . ." Jesus promised, ". . . All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. . . ." -- John 6:37. And He will lose none of them, John 6:39.

 

[Dave G]

Yet it is God's Word that says that Grace is for Obedience to the faith not me..

No, it is not.

My mistake here.
Sometimes I need to slow down a bit and read things carefully

I went back and re-read your quote that I disagreed with, and I actually had to turn around and agree with you on this point.

Here is one of the passages you used in support of grace being given for obedience to the faith:
" by whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:" ( Romans 1:5-6 )

I agree with your assessment here, that grace is given for obedience to the faith, as the very words do say it.

The purpose of faith is to establsh OBEDIENCE in the heart of the believer through the Spirit..

I disagree.
The purpose of grace ( not faith ) is to establish obedience in the heart of the elect believer through the Spirit.

Grace and apostleship were received, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for His name.
The grace came first, was received, and it has a purpose:
Obedience to the faith among all nations and for His name...and here's the good part:

Among whom were the Roman believers also the called of ( from or by ) Jesus Christ.

Question:
What is "calling", and who are "the called"?

Look at the passage again, @3rdAngel .

 

[canadyjd]

Wrong it is the result of being a believer

Again, Jesus tells unbelievers in John 10:26 that don't believe BECAUSE they are not if His sheep. He doesn't say they are not His sheep because they dont believe, as you are saying, but rather the opposite. The reason they don't believe is because they are not His sheep.

Jesus goes on to say He calls His sheep by name. It is not a general call to all sheep, but a specific call (by name) to specific sheep (His sheep). His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. He goes on to say He gives His sheep eternal life that cannot be lost.

Peace to you

 

[37818]

Wrong it is the result of being a believer

So the text should really read, He that hearth become my sheep? ". . . All that the Father giveth me . . . ." Father does this because we choose to believe? (Romans 3:11). 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, ". . .
chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:2, ". . . through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and . . . ." (John 16:8-11, and then there are those who resist, Acts of the Apostles 7:51) I am not a Calvinist.

 

[Dave G]

Your camping out on the spot which says even merely believing and receiving from God constitutes "works" I'm sorry but such is your Calvinism going amiss.

No, I'm camping out on the spot that says that man, even though we have a part to play, is both unwilling and unable to carry out that which God commands.
"Merely believing and receiving" is actually impossible for mankind to do in and of ourselves.

Or is it rather you doing so when you won't acknowledge man's part that's required to believe and receive and identify with Christ?

Man's part is to believe and repent.
God is not going to do that for us.

I think where you're losing track, is that man cannot begin "the doing".

God changes the rebellious heart first.

 

[Dave G]

Do YOU not believe a sinner NEEDS to repent?

Yes.

Jesus said "Repent and believe the gospel!" Mark 1:15 That language usage demands that's an exhortation for one to carry out an act to place one into a different state.

Rockson,
To me, you keep trying to establish that man can and will actually do what God commands.
Again, I think this is where you go off track.

Scripture declares that man hates God ( Romans 1:30 ), hates Jesus Christ the light of the world ( John 8:12 ), will not come to Him ( John 3:19-20 ), and He uses the example of the religious Pharisees to prove this point ( John 5:40 ).
He also emphasizes that a man cannot come to Him unless the Father draw them ( John 6:44 )...and that those that are drawn will be raised up at the last day.


Explain to me, Scripturally, how a person can overcome their natural hatred of Jesus Christ, and make themselves both willing and able to carry out his or her own "part" in order to cooperate with God to gain His favor?
Man's hard heart must be dealt with first.
It is this very "rock" of a hard heart that gets in the way of mankind being both willing and ultimately able to come to Christ on our own.

Man's part is to repent.
Man's part is to believe.
Man's part is to obey.

But those things can only be done by a person if God opens the heart ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ) and overcomes our natural hatred of Him by the miracle of the new birth.
Because of this gracious act on God's part, everything that is required, is now possible...but the meeting of those requirements are now directly attributed to the grace of God towards a sinner, and in no way allows the sinner to take credit for any part of their salvation.


God supplies the necessary "ingredient" ( the new birth ), and the person He has supplied it to, can then carry out what God declares must be present in a saved person.
All of what he requires is now a gift via the new birth.

 

[Revmitchell]

Again, Jesus tells unbelievers in John 10:26 that don't believe BECAUSE they are not if His sheep. He doesn't say they are not His sheep because they dont believe, as you are saying, but rather the opposite. The reason they don't believe is because they are not His sheep.

Jesus goes on to say He calls His sheep by name. It is not a general call to all sheep, but a specific call (by name) to specific sheep (His sheep). His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. He goes on to say He gives His sheep eternal life that cannot be lost.

Peace to you[/QUOTE]

So the text should really read, He that hearth become my sheep? ". . . All that the Father giveth me . . . ." Father does this because we choose to believe? (Romans 3:11). 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, ". . .
chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:2, ". . . through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and . . . ." (John 16:8-11, and then there are those who resist, Acts of the Apostles 7:51) I am not a Calvinist.

If you believe you are a sheep (follower) first and then believe you are a calvinist.

 

[Dave G]

If you believe you are a sheep (follower) first and then believe you are a calvinist.

What's a "Calvinist"?

Someone who follows the teachings of John Calvin?
I think we've already established the problem with this, Mark.

Question:

Are you a "Rice-ist"?
John R. Rice ( among many other "Traditionalists" ) taught that man had a part to play, and if that part wasn't played, then God couldn't "do His part".

Are you advocating his teachings?
If so, then based on your own rules, people could conceivably call you a "Rice-ist".
"Arminian" could also be brought into play, even though you refuse to be identified with Jakob Hermanszoon and his teachings.

My point:
If you're going to maintain that you're not an "Arminian", then shouldn't the same rules be respected from your side?

Shouldn't you be willing to treat others as you would be treated ( Matthew 7:12, Luke 6:31 )?

 

[canadyjd]

Jesus goes on to say He calls His sheep by name. It is not a general call to all sheep, but a specific call (by name) to specific sheep (His sheep). His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. He goes on to say He gives His sheep eternal life that cannot be lost.

Peace to you

If you believe you are a sheep (follower) first and then believe you are a calvinist.[/QUOTE]
I believe scripture and I am a Christian. Jesus told unbelievers that the reason they didn't believe was because they were not His sheep. You can believe it or not, but that is what our Lord Jesus said. Jesus said He calls His sheep by name. A specific call of specific sheep. Not a general call to all sheep. You can believe it or not, but that is what our Lord Jesus said. Jesus said His sheep would respond to His specific call by following Him and that He would give them eternal life that could not be lost. You can believe it or not, but that us what our Lord Jesus said.

I haven't read a whole lot of Calvin but I do accept the doctrines of grace.

Peace to you

 

[Dave G]

Paul's usage of the term "not by works" in context is about seeking to be saved by the keeping of the law or a moral code with perfection. Simply believing and coming into agreement with what God says about identifying with Christ IS NOT trying to be saved through the keeping of the law.

I agree.

Paul's ( actually the Holy Spirit's ) usage of the term in that passage ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ) is about seeking to be saved by the keeping of the Law or a moral code with perfection.
But I also I think that a better passage to use as support for your statement is Galatians 3:1-14.
I could also throw in Romans 9:31-32 and Hebrews 4:2.

However, across the Scriptures, the details don't just stop right there.
Paul ( actually the Holy Spirit through Christ's apostle, Paul ) has this to say in Romans 11:

" But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." ( Romans 11:4-6 )

Grace is grace, and works are works.


Therefore, man's efforts at meeting God's requirements, apart from the new birth and the grace of God alone, are works.
They are works ( filthy rags ) because they stem from a position of men still being dead in trespasses and sins, in our rebellion and hard-heartedness, and outside of the favor of God that is only evidenced by belief and repentance.

To me, you've put the cart before the horse.
God's favor on someone is not gained by doing something...it is gained because He chose to have compassion and mercy upon them ( Exodus 22:19, Romans 9:14-18 )

" For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." ( Romans 9:15-16 )

Believing and receiving, if directly attributed to the man, negates grace and turns it into works.
It then violates Ephesians 2:9.

Why?
Because according to Titus 3:5-6, it is not by works of righteousness ( which are what believing and receiving are ) that we have done has He has saved us, but according to His mercy.

Therefore, if any part of the process cannot be traced directly back to God alone and His efforts at saving someone, then that is not Biblical salvation.

Lastly,
Grace is according to election.

His choices and His purposes ( Romans 8:28, Ephesians 1:11 ), not ours.
The new birth is according to His will ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ), not our will.

 

[Revmitchell]

If you believe you are a sheep (follower) first and then believe you are a calvinist.
I believe scripture and I am a Christian. Jesus told unbelievers that the reason they didn't believe was because they were not His sheep. You can believe it or not, but that is what our Lord Jesus said. Jesus said He calls His sheep by name. A specific call of specific sheep. Not a general call to all sheep. You can believe it or not, but that is what our Lord Jesus said. Jesus said His sheep would respond to His specific call by following Him and that He would give them eternal life that could not be lost. You can believe it or not, but that us what our Lord Jesus said.

I haven't read a whole lot of Calvin but I do accept the doctrines of grace.

Peace to you

You assume an order there. ts not. Knowing Jesus and Him calling them by name does not assume any kind of call. Just because they do not know Him does not assume they cannot know HIm.

 

[Dave G]

You assume an order there. ts not.

That depends on how one understands the words.

To me, John 10:26 should be enough to establish that a person believes, because they are one of Christ's sheep, marked out from the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).
Acts of the Apostles 13:48 establishes that those that are ordained ( appointed ) to eternal life, believe.
Psalms 65:4 establishes that a person is considered blessed because God chooses them and causes them to approach unto Him.

Also, John 6:29 specifically states that it is a work of God for someone to believe, while Philippians 1:29 states that it is given to believers...to believe on ( as well as to suffer for ) Christ.

I find a definite order of which comes first...God's grace, and then a person's reaction to it.

 

[Dave G]

Knowing Jesus and Him calling them by name does not assume any kind of call.

I agree.
It's proven that a person was "called" into the fellowship of the saints, by His very word, and doesn't assume anything.

Romans 8:28-30.
2 Peter 2:10.
Romans 1:6.
1 Corinthians 1:9.
1 Corinthians 1:24.
Galatians 1:6.
Galatians 1:15.
Galatians 5:8.
Ephesians 4:1.
Hebrews 9:15.
1 Peter 3:9.

"Calling" is something that only happens to those that end up believing on Christ from the heart ( Romans 10:8-10 ).
That's why this "calling" is never associated ( except with regard to a few passages referring to national Israel...for example, in Matthew 22:3 and Matthew 22:14 ) with anyone except those that have believed.

"Calvinists" ( as well as myself ) consider that there are two "calls"...one is external, and it only bounces off, spiritually.
The other is internal ( it works only on them that have "ears to hear" ( Matthew 11:15, which is why the Lord keeps putting in this "qualifier" throughout the Gospels )), and always results in the person to whom God's mercy is extended to, believing on Christ because of the working of the Spirit in conjunction with the word of God.

Otherwise, the preaching of the cross is foolishness to them that are perishing ( and is the power of God to us which are saved 1 Corinthians 1:18 ) and the Word has no effect.

That is why faith comes by "hearing" ( Romans 10:17 ) instead of simply hearing with the physical ear or reading the words with the physical eyes.
The words of God have to resonate, spiritually.


True faith that endures to the end, is not carried along within the word of God and presented to every person on a tray ( representing the preaching of the word ) like an offer...it is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ) that is the evidence of the Holy Spirit's working ( Hebrews 11:1, Galatians 5:22-23 ) and it is only delivered to the saints ( Jude 1:3 ), not to every man ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).


It makes me sad that many do not see this, as it truly glorifies God for every facet and aspect of salvation.

 

[37818]

If you believe you are a sheep (follower) first and then believe you are a calvinist.

Hmm... John 10:25-26, ". . . Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. . . ." Jesus taught Calvinism?

 

[37818]

That is why faith comes by "hearing" ( Romans 10:17 ) . . . .

Romans 10:17-18 - Psalms 19:4, refers to natural faith of all men through natural revelation through God's spoken word of His creation.