Can You Come to Christ on Your Own

[Alan Gross]

Now I have argued on other threads free grace people that even if the Holy Spirit gives "help" rather than actual regeneration first, if the help is decisive to where the person could not have come to faith without it then there is a sense where the grace is "irresistible".

I repeat, Total Depravity must be know and owned, before the rest of The Doctrines of Grace, or the Way of Salvation can be appreciated.

"Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil" (Eccles. 8:11).

Such is the perversity of corrupt human nature that it abuses the very patience and forbearance of God. Since divine judgment is not sent at once to evildoers, they set themselves against the Lord and promise themselves immunity. Thus it was with those in the days of Noah.

God deferred the flood for one hundred and twenty years, giving them ample "space for repentance"; but instead of availing themselves of the opportunity they regarded His threats as idle, and became increasingly corrupt and violent.

It was thus with Pharaoh, who only hardened his heart when respite was granted him. And it is still thus. Though the marks of divine displeasure against I our generation are multiplied, men grow more and more daring and in defying God’s law, sinning with a high hand and presuming on their security.

"The heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead" (Eccles. 9:3). As Christ was and is "full of grace and truth" (John 1:14), the natural man is filled with unrighteousness and wickedness. He is filled with such enmity against God that as his corruptions kindle it, so divine and spiritual things stimulate it to action.

That awful enmity comprises the sum of all evil. "Madness is in their heart"; men are so infatuated as to seek their pleasures in the things which God hates. They cast off all the restraints of reason and conscience (cf. Jer. 1:38) as their heady and violent passions press them forward into sin. Who but a madman would set himself against the Almighty and rush into evil heedless of danger and disaster? They are maddened by their lusts, mad against piety. The clause "after that they go to the dead" signifies more than the grave; they are gathered to their own company, the dead in sin, not to "the spirits of just men made perfect."

The teaching of the Lord Jesus was of course in perfect harmony with that of the Old Testament. He never flattered human nature or extolled its excellences. Instead He painted it in the darkest colors, announcing that He had come to "seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10).

Fallen man has lost all likeness to God, all communion with God, all love for God, all true knowledge of God, all delight in God, all favor with God, all power toward God, and bas thrown off all subjection to God.

The Saviour was not deceived by religious pretense or shallow profession. Even when many believed in His name as they saw the miracles which He did, "Jesus did not commit himself unto them... for he knew what was in man’ (John 2:23-25)

- By declaring, "I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Matt. 9:13), He had not only intimated the need for His mission-for there would have been no occasion for His coming among men unless they were perishing-but inferred that there were none righteous, for He called upon all to repent (Mark 1:15; Luke 13:5).

When Christ asserted, "Except a man be born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God," He showed how desperate is man’s plight; for the new birth is not a mere correcting of some defect, nor the righting of a single faculty, but an entire renovation of the soul.

The same Spirit which formed Christ in the virgin’s womb must form Him in our hearts to fit us for the presence of God. When Christ averred that "men loved darkness rather than light" (John 3:19), He exposed their awful depravity.

They were not only in the darkness, but delighted in it "because their deeds were evil." When He stated that "the wrath of God abideth on" the unbeliever, Christ testified to man’s awful condition.

When He said, "I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you" (John 5:42), He again revealed man’s fearful state, for since all goodness or virtue consists in love to God and our neighbor, then where love is wanting, goodness or virtue has no existence.

Christ’s statement "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" (John 6:44) plainly showed the moral impotence of every descendant of Adam. This impotence consists of turpitude and baseness, of inveterate opposition to God due to bitter hatred of Him. No one seeks the company of a person he loathes: before he does so he must be given an entirely new disposition.

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all these evil things come from within, and defile the man" (Mark 7:21-23).

Note that Christ used "heart" in the singular number, referring to the common and uniform heart of all mankind. Here the Lord made known what a loathsome place is the center of man’s being, and what horrible crimes issue from its evil. They rise from that fountain which is poisoned by sin.

The Son of God expressed His estimate of fallen mankind thus: "If ye then, being evil..." (Matt. 7:11). Men not only do that which is evil, but are so in their very nature.

As the psalmist said, "Their inward part is very wickedness" (5:9) - Christ spoke not to open enemies but to His own disciples, and His language affirmed that by birth they were defiled both root and branch. How His words abase human pride! Those who prattle about the dignity and nobility of human nature meet with Christ’s solemn verdict to the contrary.

"The Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him" (John 14:17). What Christ said in His day, "Because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not" (John 8:45), is still true.

Men are so infatuated with lies, they cannot receive the Spirit of truth. In those words the Son of God represented the unregenerate as not having the least degree of spiritual discernment and knowledge, as being completely destitute of holiness. Nothing but total depravity can make man so blind to spiritual things as to be thoroughly opposed to them.

Our English word "depraved" is taken from depravatus, which means twisted, wrenched from the straight line. The root of this word is pravus, "crooked," "bad." Total depravity connotes that this distortion has affected all of man’s being to such an extent that he has no inherent power of recovery left to restore himself to harmony with God, and that this is the case with every member of the race.

Yet total depravity does not imply that sin has reached its highest intensity in a person so that it is incapable of augmentation, for men add to their sins (I Sam. 12:19). No, fallen man does not enter this world as bad as he can be, but he has "no good thing" in him (Rom. 7:18). Instead he is wholly corrupt, entirely vitiated throughout his constitution.

The natural man has not one iota of holiness in him; rather he is horn with the seeds of every form of evil, radically inclined to sin. In our nature we are vileness itself, black as hell, and unless a miracle of grace is worked in us we must inevitably be damned for all eternity. It is not a case of man’s having a few imperfections; he is altogether polluted. "an unclean thing" with "no soundness" (Isa. 1:6). Not only has man no holiness, but his heart is inveterately averse to it.

from: The Total Depravity of Man by A. W. Pink

Table of Contents:

Chapter 1 - Introduction

Chapter 2 - Origin

Chapter 3 - Imputation

Chapter 4 - Consequences

Chapter 5 - Transmission

Chapter 6 - Nature

Chapter 7 - Impact

Chapter 8 - Enormity

Chapter 9 - Extent

Chapter 10 - Ramifications

Chapter 11 - Evidences

Chapter 12 - Corollaries

Chapter 13 - Remedy

Chapter 14 - Summary

 

[AustinC]

Exactly. Philippians 3 does not need an "interpretation".

Yet, you read commentaries on someone else's interpretation.

Your comment is entirely bogus. Of course we need to interpret every part of God's word.
We observe, ask questions, interpret, check our interpretation against others, and we apply the interpretation to our lives.

Do you not do this?

 

[DaveXR650]

Yet, you read commentaries on someone else's interpretation.

Your comment is entirely bogus. Of course we need to interpret every part of God's word.
We observe, ask questions, interpret, check our interpretation against others, and we apply the interpretation to our lives.

Do you not do this?

Sure, if there is some question. We have pretty good English translations available to us. WE, ourselves, do not need to or should we "interpret" every part of God's word. If what you are talking about is the applying it to our individual lives then that's different, but to come on a theological discussion board and ridicule those who use known sources, preferring instead to throw out some random private interpretation is ridiculous.

 

[AustinC]

Sure, if there is some question. We have pretty good English translations available to us. WE, ourselves, do not need to or should we "interpret" every part of God's word. If what you are talking about is the applying it to our individual lives then that's different, but to come on a theological discussion board and ridicule those who use known sources, preferring instead to throw out some random private interpretation is ridiculous.

You realize that if I work your logic backwards, only the original writers are to interpret what they wrote. Every pastor who learns Greek and Hebrew have wasted their time. No personal Bible study would exist.

However, your comment explains why you have abandoned personal Bible study and now spend all your time reading secondary source documents.

 

[DaveXR650]

You realize that if I work your logic backwards, only the original writers are to interpret what they wrote. Every pastor who learns Greek and Hebrew have wasted their time. No personal Bible study would exist.

However, your comment explains why you have abandoned personal Bible study and now spend all your time reading secondary source documents.

First of all, you have no idea about my level of personal Bible study. Secondly, there are lots of passages that have more than one possible meaning and you can look into the context, compare it with other passages and so on. It's true, I do not myself look into actual Greek or Hebrew word meanings - I rely on commentaries. I admire those with the training to do that directly but no, it's not for me, or you either it seems.

Is there some hidden or controversial meaning to Philippians chapter 3 that I don't know about? Some mistake I made that would require parsing the Greek. If so, share it. If not then why did you bring it up?

 

[Silverhair]

*Acts 2:37-39*
Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”

*Acts 13:48*
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

They heard and believed the gospel message that is what drew them to Christ Jesus.

 

[AustinC]

They heard and believed the gospel message that is what drew them to Christ Jesus.

They, like the Gentiles to come, were appointed to believe. Give God his due, Sliverhair.
*Acts 13:48*
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[AustinC]

First of all, you have no idea about my level of personal Bible study. Secondly, there are lots of passages that have more than one possible meaning and you can look into the context, compare it with other passages and so on. It's true, I do not myself look into actual Greek or Hebrew word meanings - I rely on commentaries. I admire those with the training to do that directly but no, it's not for me, or you either it seems.

Is there some hidden or controversial meaning to Philippians chapter 3 that I don't know about? Some mistake I made that would require parsing the Greek. If so, share it. If not then why did you bring it up?

You're just ranting.
My point is made. God calls us to study his word and to interpret what He has told us.

 

[DaveXR650]

You're just ranting.

Yup. I'm looking to get this thread to 200.

 

[Silverhair]

They, like the Gentiles to come, were appointed to believe. Give God his due, Sliverhair.
*Acts 13:48*
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Look at the context of the verse and then you might actually understand what the verse is telling us. But since you really do not like context as it shows how badly you distort scripture you will continue to ignore it.

appointed τεταγμένοι G5021] The meaning of this word must be determined by the context. The Jews had judged themselves unworthy of eternal life: the Gentiles, as many as were disposed to eternal life, believed. By whom so disposed, is not here declared: nor need the word be in this place further particularized. Henry Alford's The Greek Testament

As many as had been prepared by the message and the spirit, at the message just delivered by Paul, of their own volition, accord, or choice, Proverbs 1:22-23; John 1:11-12. Garner-Howes Baptist Commentary

 

[Silverhair]

You're just ranting.
My point is made. God calls us to study his word and to interpret what He has told us.

There in lays the problem Austin, you seek to interpret clear English as if it had some secret hidden meaning. For you the written word does not mean what it usually means it has to be decoded first. Verses pulled out of context can be used to mean whatever you need them to mean. Context and your views do not go together.

 

[AustinC]

There in lays the problem Austin, you seek to interpret clear English as if it had some secret hidden meaning.

Prove this assertion, Sliverhair, or admit you are making it up.

For you the written word does not mean what it usually means it has to be decoded first.

Prove this assertion, Sliverhair, or admit you are making it up.

Verses pulled out of context can be used to mean whatever you need them to mean. Context and your views do not go together.

Prove this assertion, Sliverhair, or admit you are making it up.

 

[AustinC]

Look at the context of the verse and then you might actually understand what the verse is telling us. But since you really do not like context as it shows how badly you distort scripture you will continue to ignore it.

appointed τεταγμένοι G5021] The meaning of this word must be determined by the context. The Jews had judged themselves unworthy of eternal life: the Gentiles, as many as were disposed to eternal life, believed. By whom so disposed, is not here declared: nor need the word be in this place further particularized. Henry Alford's The Greek Testament

As many as had been prepared by the message and the spirit, at the message just delivered by Paul, of their own volition, accord, or choice, Proverbs 1:22-23; John 1:11-12. Garner-Howes Baptist Commentary

Yes, let's read the context Sliverhair. Then tell me if Jesus prayer in John 17 is being answered.

*Acts 13:26-52*
“Brothers, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to us has been sent the message of this salvation. For those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers, because they did not recognize him nor understand the utterances of the prophets, which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. And though they found in him no guilt worthy of death, they asked Pilate to have him executed. And when they had carried out all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead, and for many days he appeared to those who had come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people. And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, “‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you.’ And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way, “‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’ Therefore he says also in another psalm, “‘You will not let your Holy One see corruption.’ For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep and was laid with his fathers and saw corruption, but he whom God raised up did not see corruption. Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. Beware, therefore, lest what is said in the Prophets should come about: “‘Look, you scoffers, be astounded and perish; for I am doing a work in your days, a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.’” As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath. And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, urged them to continue in the grace of God. The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’” And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region. But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. But they shook off the dust from their feet against them and went to Iconium. And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

*John 17:20-26*
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

Tell me, Sliverhair, what mysterious truth did I add or speak? How did I decode it from what it says?

My friend, I know you don't like it when Jesus declares His total supremacy over you. I cannot help you with your desire to control your situation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

LOL… Cato is well known for his “Delendam Esse Cathaginem” statement!

Actually Delenda est Carthago. 'Carthage must be destroyed.' It's always good to check your quotes before you give them, otherwise you get some fussy know-it-all like me correcting you.

 

[DaveXR650]

Yes, let's read the context Sliverhair. Then tell me if Jesus prayer in John 17 is being answered.

What exactly do you think Jesus prayer in John 17 is all about? I'll give you a hint, it is not about this:

My friend, I know you don't like it when Jesus declares His total supremacy over you. I cannot help you with your desire to control your situation.

The main thing you get out of the prayer in John 17 is "His total supremacy over you"? That's warped. God's sovereignty is there but you make people think that there is an equal selection in God's sovereignty, that there is a good possibility that for some of you out there - you may just be "out", so don't think you can get in just because you want to. Jesus says "the hour is come" in verse 1 and most of his prayer is about his disciples, who he will be leaving. So he prays for them as separate from the world. But then what does he do? He says in verse 18 that " As thou has sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world". And in John 17:20 and in John 17:21 he says that he is not just praying for them as "opposed" or opposite the world, but because he is sending them into the world why? "That the world may believe that thou hast sent me and that they would all be one." And he goes on to say that he desires that the world would know that God has loved him (Jesus) and all of them in the world.
Verse 20 says "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word".
@Silverhair and I go round and round over the meaning of free will. It's an interesting topic for those who read books. It's not necessary, I don't think you have to be right on it, thank goodness, in order to be saved. I like Jonathan Edward's take on it to the extent I can understand it while Silverhair is way more of the opinion that the free will is in some way autonomous. But one theme that keeps coming up when I talk to him or anyone who does not consider themselves a Calvinist is the idea they have gotten somewhere that Calvinism is all about a caricature of a heartless God looking down and equally desiring the destruction and torment of most of the "world". I can see where they get that. I am so thankful that I read (yes read) tons of sermons by well known Calvinists before I listened to the "logical" arguments the modern Calvinists were making.

 

[Silverhair]

Prove this assertion, Sliverhair, or admit you are making it up.


Prove this assertion, Sliverhair, or admit you are making it up.

Prove this assertion, Sliverhair, or admit you are making it up.

Read your posts Austin it is a constant thing with you. You act as if you are the source of all truth and all must bow to your view or they are humanists, pelagians, or whatever other pejorative you can think to use.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Actually Delenda est Carthago. 'Carthage must be destroyed.' It's always good to check your quotes before you give them, otherwise you get some fussy know-it-all like me correcting you.

Greek or Roman. Which Cato said it? Anyway, that’s Will Durant’s spelling on the quote…in the Civilization book series, “Caesar and Christ”

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, let's read the context Sliverhair. Then tell me if Jesus prayer in John 17 is being answered.

*Acts 13:26-52*
“Brothers, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to us has been sent the message of this salvation. For those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers, because they did not recognize him nor understand the utterances of the prophets, which are read every Sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him. And though they found in him no guilt worthy of death, they asked Pilate to have him executed. And when they had carried out all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead, and for many days he appeared to those who had come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people. And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, “‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you.’ And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way, “‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’ Therefore he says also in another psalm, “‘You will not let your Holy One see corruption.’ For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep and was laid with his fathers and saw corruption, but he whom God raised up did not see corruption. Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. Beware, therefore, lest what is said in the Prophets should come about: “‘Look, you scoffers, be astounded and perish; for I am doing a work in your days, a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.’” As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath. And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, urged them to continue in the grace of God. The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’” And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region. But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. But they shook off the dust from their feet against them and went to Iconium. And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

*John 17:20-26*
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

Tell me, Sliverhair, what mysterious truth did I add or speak? How did I decode it from what it says?

My friend, I know you don't like it when Jesus declares His total supremacy over you. I cannot help you with your desire to control your situation.

What you continue to ignore is the parts of the bible that you do not seem to like that much. You know those ones that show us that God has given man the real ability to make real choices.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 1:12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

You do not like the idea that God actually does not pull all the strings. You have continued to ignore the fact that God is sovereign and I mean actually sovereign and not the version of sovereignty that you put forward. In His sovereignty since He has chosen to give man a free will who are you oh man to deny this.

What can free will mean if not free will?
Free will is the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action (aka choosing “otherwise”). This does not require the person to be able to choose anything, nor does it require the absence of other influencing factors. It only requires the ability for a person confronted with a decision to be able to choose from among one or more possible options.
Free will is closely linked to the concepts of moral responsibility, praise, guilt, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen.

Do you, Austin, agree or disagree with the above comment re: free will

 

[AustinC]

What you continue to ignore is the parts of the bible that you do not seem to like that much. You know those ones that show us that God has given man the real ability to make real choices.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—

Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 1:12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

You do not like the idea that God actually does not pull all the strings. You have continued to ignore the fact that God is sovereign and I mean actually sovereign and not the version of sovereignty that you put forward. In His sovereignty since He has chosen to give man a free will who are you oh man to deny this.

What can free will mean if not free will?
Free will is the capacity for agents to choose between different possible courses of action (aka choosing “otherwise”). This does not require the person to be able to choose anything, nor does it require the absence of other influencing factors. It only requires the ability for a person confronted with a decision to be able to choose from among one or more possible options.
Free will is closely linked to the concepts of moral responsibility, praise, guilt, sin, and other judgements which apply only to actions that are freely chosen.

Do you, Austin, agree or disagree with the above comment re: free will

I love those passages you share. I just don't see where God is declaring "free-will" in those passages. Are you sure it's not you who is inserting something "mysterious" into the passage as a "new knowledge?" I read both passages and there is not any mention of "free-will" in either passage. So...how is it that your will is free from slavery to either Sin (Satan) or God? Tell us where to find that new knowledge that isn't stated in these passages.

The will is always controlled by that which is master over the will.
Is God not your master, Sliverhair?
Can you defeat God's will for you?

 

[Silverhair]

What exactly do you think Jesus prayer in John 17 is all about? I'll give you a hint, it is not about this:

The main thing you get out of the prayer in John 17 is "His total supremacy over you"? That's warped. God's sovereignty is there but you make people think that there is an equal selection in God's sovereignty, that there is a good possibility that for some of you out there - you may just be "out", so don't think you can get in just because you want to. Jesus says "the hour is come" in verse 1 and most of his prayer is about his disciples, who he will be leaving. So he prays for them as separate from the world. But then what does he do? He says in verse 18 that " As thou has sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world". And in John 17:20 and in John 17:21 he says that he is not just praying for them as "opposed" or opposite the world, but because he is sending them into the world why? "That the world may believe that thou hast sent me and that they would all be one." And he goes on to say that he desires that the world would know that God has loved him (Jesus) and all of them in the world.
Verse 20 says "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word".
@Silverhair and I go round and round over the meaning of free will. It's an interesting topic for those who read books. It's not necessary, I don't think you have to be right on it, thank goodness, in order to be saved. I like Jonathan Edward's take on it to the extent I can understand it while Silverhair is way more of the opinion that the free will is in some way autonomous. But one theme that keeps coming up when I talk to him or anyone who does not consider themselves a Calvinist is the idea they have gotten somewhere that Calvinism is all about a caricature of a heartless God looking down and equally desiring the destruction and torment of most of the "world". I can see where they get that. I am so thankful that I read (yes read) tons of sermons by well known Calvinists before I listened to the "logical" arguments the modern Calvinists were making.

@DaveXR650 just a point of clarification in regard to how I understand free will.

Either God has given man the ability to comprehend His creation, the gospel message re the sacrifice of His son, the offer of salvation when it is presented or they are have not been given that ability. If we have not then God has to make arbitrary choices as to who would be saved and who lost but if we do indeed have this God given ability then man is now responsible for their final destiny.

As I said in another post, this does not require the person to be able to choose anything, nor does it require the absence of other influencing factors. It only requires the ability for a person confronted with a decision to be able to choose from among one or more possible options.
The option to accept or reject trusting in Christ Jesus is real or it is just an illusion and if it is an illusion then to what purpose that would be I am not sure.