Can You Come to Christ on Your Own

[George Antonios]

Meh, not really, I've not fully stated my thoughts yet.

Well at least from the tenor of your words it seems you are at least open to hear another angle, which is all anyone could ever ask of his interlocutor.

 

[kyredneck]

Well at least from the tenor of your words it seems you are at least open to hear another angle, which is all anyone could ever ask of his interlocutor.

Is faith a work? | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)

 

[AustinC]

Why would I want to do that? I have not made that point. If you are asking if the unsaved have to believe before they are saved then I would point you to the verses where Paul describes his former life as a good Pharisee who now counts all that as dung and gladly gives it up for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ. That is describing faith and repentance.

Notice how you set up a false conflict that I am saying does not really exist. All you get out of any of my posts is some fantasy that you are protecting true Christianity because people might get some order wrong. Paul doesn't worry about it, does he. He explains both. Since we have a direct insight to Paul's actual conversion, we can see that it is probably the best example of God's sovereignty in action than you find anywhere else. But what does Paul do? He works out his salvation all the while giving God all credit and saying he is doing it by faith. "But I follow after if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended". You show me one verse anywhere in scripture where there is this preoccupation with the order that you are so stuck on.

There are places in Calvin's institutes where Calvin himself says faith comes before regeneration. John Owen said he would not argue the point but thought regeneration and faith occurred at the same time. In another place he said he thought there were people walking around born again but not yet come to faith. In other words, they were all over the place. But wait, isn't that just what you have been on here complaining about me?

"The rest of your post is irrelevant" works for you because that's all you can contribute. Some of you guys have been "converted" to Calvinism because you listened to some internet arguments by a few of the YRR guys. And your technique is simple. You have a few key verses that may or may not be in context, and if anyone doesn't bow to you when you present them you start screaming "heretic". I just happen to notice that there is more to this than you extreme Calvinists have been asserting. The arguments you use confounded your Baptist pastor 20 years ago because all he knew about Calvin was that "he was wrong on Baptism, and wrong on the Lord's Supper so what does he know". But they have been reading and they are noticing some cracks and have some questions.

A couple of you guys on here would do well to, whenever you have time, get on his site and listen to some Martyn Lloyd-Jones sermons. They are available in audio if you aren't wanting to read all the time. I promise you, if you do, you will still be a Calvinist when you are finished but you will not be these obnoxious "cage-stage" YRR guys like you see on the internet and you will learn to appreciate some of the other takes on soteriology and practical theology.

I notice not one appeal to God's word in your post. Just a passing reference as you run to your secondary sources.
What you share here is irrelevant and pointless.
Since you will not base your theology on God's word, we have nothing to talk about.

 

[DaveXR650]

I notice not one appeal to God's word in your post. Just a passing reference as you run to your secondary sources.
What you share here is irrelevant and pointless.
Since you will not base your theology on God's word, we have nothing to talk about.

Austin you're right. If you come up with a response like this when the post you quote talks about Paul and quotes from Philippians chapter 3 then we don't have anything to talk about. Why don't you give some silly reply and I promise to let that be the last word.

 

[AustinC]

Austin you're right. If you come up with a response like this when the post you quote talks about Paul and quotes from Philippians chapter 3 then we don't have anything to talk about. Why don't you give some silly reply and I promise to let that be the last word.

Where do you quote Phillipians 3 in your post? Where do you take the time to explain it?
The answer is...you don't. You toss it out as an afterthought as you run back to your secondary sources. It's you M. O. Clearly you've been spending all your time reading secondary sources to the point you merely toss to primary source out as an aside. It's just what you do.
You have shown us your real theology. That was what I was hoping to finally get from you. I know exactly where you stand. Thank you.

 

[DaveXR650]

"But I follow after if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended".

Where do you quote Phillipians 3 in your post? Where do you take the time to explain it?

I think I explained it quite well. I'm still waiting for you to back up this meticulous obsession you have with the order of salvation with scripture and maybe also show how it is a heresy to post a truth like salvation is by faith because it doesn't include some specific aspect you have demanded. I don't know if this is a post modern thing or what but where did this idea get going on this board that an opinion is better than using a source? At your level of expertise, and mine too, we don't have an opinion.

 

[AustinC]

I think I explained it quite well. I'm still waiting for you to back up this meticulous obsession you have with the order of salvation with scripture and maybe also show how it is a heresy to post a truth like salvation is by faith because it doesn't include some specific aspect you have demanded. I don't know if this is a post modern thing or what but where did this idea get going on this board that an opinion is better than using a source? At your level of expertise, and mine too, we don't have an opinion.

Here's Philippians 3. Tell us what you think it says.
*Philippians 3:1-21*
Finally, my brothers,rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you. Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained. Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.

Did Paul have faith before he was saved? Does this chapter tell us anything about Paul exercising faith to get saved?

 

[DaveXR650]

Here's Philippians 3. Tell us what you think it says.

I've already done that. And your question indicates you really don't want to know but to challenge. (What you think it says).

Did Paul have faith before he was saved? Does this chapter tell us anything about Paul exercising faith to get saved?

This is the whole point isn't it, with your obsession with the order of things. This passage teaches the uselessness of works, religious zeal, and racial privilege. It discusses unity with Christ, which we tend to overlook. It talks about righteousness that comes by faith which you do nothing to get but yet it cost him everything but he didn't care. Why, it doesn't say but we know that it's because he had a new life and a new heart. He is not afraid to strive in the new life and press ahead. He puts forth effort to make Christ his own and yet - admits that it is because Christ has already made him His own. He warns others to avoid those whose God is their belly - without worrying about the precise theology of whether a true saint could lose their salvation. He moves back and forth between self effort and praising God constantly. He doesn't seem to care when his faith occurred in relationship to the other things, it's just stuck in the middle of the narrative - without any regard to the order. Yet you would throw everything out because of some idea in your mind that knowing the order of salvation is the most important thing. You are just like the pharisees who when Jesus healed someone only could think about the fact that it was on the Sabbath.

 

[AustinC]

I've already done that. And your question indicates you really don't want to know but to challenge. (What you think it says).

This is the whole point isn't it, with your obsession with the order of things. This passage teaches the uselessness of works, religious zeal, and racial privilege. It discusses unity with Christ, which we tend to overlook. It talks about righteousness that comes by faith which you do nothing to get but yet it cost him everything but he didn't care. Why, it doesn't say but we know that it's because he had a new life and a new heart. He is not afraid to strive in the new life and press ahead. He puts forth effort to make Christ his own and yet - admits that it is because Christ has already made him His own. He warns others to avoid those whose God is their belly - without worrying about the precise theology of whether a true saint could lose their salvation. He moves back and forth between self effort and praising God constantly. He doesn't seem to care when his faith occurred in relationship to the other things, it's just stuck in the middle of the narrative - without any regard to the order. Yet you would throw everything out because of some idea in your mind that knowing the order of salvation is the most important thing. You are just like the pharisees who when Jesus healed someone only could think about the fact that it was on the Sabbath.

All you do is avoid scripture. You just ranted and never once showed us anything from Philippians 3.

 

[Alan Gross]

When it says above, "to the extent that", do you think that means that it is in the level of intensity of the understanding of conviction

The Person and Work of the Holy Spirit By Ron Crisp

Chapter 10 - The Preparatory Work of the Holy Spirit in Salvation

INTRODUCTION

Commonly there is a work preparatory to regeneration that takes place in the sinner’s heart. Because salvation is a moral as well as a legal work this is to be expected. Those who are to eternally enjoy the benefits of faith in Christ are first made to see their need of Him. The self-righteous spirit of man must be broken up that the Saviour may receive all the glory in salvation.

Before beginning this topic let us be cautioned to remember that the Holy Spirit is a sovereign agent in salvation. He works as He pleases, and one person's experience must not be made a pattern for others. Some spend months under conviction, while others are soon brought to full assurance (Acts 8:26-39; 16:25-34). Some, like Paul, find the Lord who were not seeking Him (Romans 10:20). Some seem to be allowed to view the depths of their depravity before they find peace; while others are led more fully into a knowledge of their sinfulness after salvation. Let us rejoice that as God alone knows our heart, so He alone knows how best to deal with each of His people.

Being careful to keep the aforementioned facts in mind, let us study some of the preparatory works of the Spirit in salvation.

I. AWAKENING.

No one can overestimate the danger that unsaved men are in (John 3:1.8, Hebrews 10: 31), yet the Bible portrays them as asleep, blind, dead and unconscious. Death, sin, judgment and eternity are not realities to the unregenerate (Isaiah 28: 15). Men slumber on the brink of Hell.
In awakening the sinner, God's Spirit impresses upon the mind the reality of eternity and judgment. The sinner becomes aware that he is in danger of God's wrath. Spiritual matters become important. Not everyone who is awakened is then saved. Some are lulled back to sleep by an empty profession of religion or the pull of the world. (Acts 24: 25).

enlightenment of the Holy Spirit

II. ILLUMINATION.

While only the regenerate are "renewed in knowledge" (Colossians 3:10) yet the unsaved can receive a degree of enlightenment. When a sinner is under conviction he may be ignorant of the nature of faith, but he sees clearly the danger of sin and the seriousness of eternity. For the first time his soul becomes important. Does not all this require a degree of illumination?

Even the natural man can be made to fear Hell and be concerned for his eternal welfare. This is of course different from the light of regeneration that enables a man to love God. This illumination then is simply a stirring up of man's natural mind to see the danger of sin and judgment.

III. CONVICTION.

While "awakening" deals primarily with danger, yet "conviction" is the work of God whereby the cause of our danger is revealed. In conviction a man is convinced and reproved concerning his sinful condition. This alone can give the sinner a desire to know Christ.

"A form of words, though e'er so sound, Can never save a soul; The Holy Ghost must give the wound, And make the wounded whole."

A. The areas of conviction - In John 16:8-11, we find three areas wherein men are convicted.
1. Of sin - God convicts men of great sins they have committed (Acts 2:36-37), of original sin, of failure in duties and of the sin of unbelief.
2. Of righteousness - Men are convicted of the righteousness of Christ, and of their need of His righteousness (Matthew 5:6).
3. Of judgment to come - Judgment often has reference to rule. Men are convinced that just as Satan will be vanquished, so Christ is the coming king, and that resistance is folly. The powers of evil have no chance for victory, but all will ultimately stand before God.

B. The need of conviction.
1. Without conviction men would not be ready to admit their total defilement, nor to come to Christ as helpless beggars. "Christ is all" (Colossians 3:11) in salvation, and God would have the redeemed to understand this. Conviction therefore prepares the soul for faith in Christ.
2. Conviction is preparatory to repentance. Godly sorrow (II Corinthians 7:10) precedes repentance which is a permanent change of heart and mind about sin.

C. The means of conviction. While conviction is a work of God's Spirit, yet He is pleased to use certain truths in this work. Just as He often uses the truth of God’s wrath to awaken sinners so in conviction He uses:
1. The law (Romans 3:19-20; 7:7-13). Men commonly judge themselves by their neighbors' actions, but in conviction they see that it is God’s glory they fall short of (Romans 3:23).
2. The goodness of God (Romans 2:4). Many have testified that it was a view of God's goodness that convinced them of their sin.

D. The earmarks of true conviction.
1. Real conviction causes a man to accept his guilt (Psalms 51:4, Luke 18:9-14).
2. Real conviction destroys self-righteousness (Luke 18:9-14, Isaiah 64:6).
3. Real conviction sees sin as being against God (Psalms 51:4, Luke l5:18.
4. Real conviction leads one to Christ, rather than to worldly despair (II Corinthians 7: 10).

Conviction may not be pleasant work, but it is a necessary one. To see ourselves as we are is a prerequisite to seeing Christ. In the first four beatitudes (Matthew 5:3-6) our Lord explains that only those who have experienced such conviction are truly blessed.

IV. A DESIRE FOR THE MEANS OF GRACE.

Before a soul is saved the Holy Spirit will often produce within him or her a desire to pray and to hear God's Word.

CONCLUSION

We hope that each student of God's Word can now clearly see that the purpose of the Spirit's preparatory work in salvation is to prepare the sinner to appreciate the Lord Jesus Christ. Every work of the Spirit leads the sinner closer to the realization that faith in Christ alone can save the soul.

"Whatever prompts the soul to pride, Or gives us room to boast, Except in Jesus crucified, Is not the Holy Ghost.
That blessed Spirit omits to speak Of what Himself has done, And bids the enlightened sinner seek Salvation in the Son. He never moves a man to say, "Thank God, I'm made so good. But turns his eye another way, To Jesus and His blood.
Great are the graces He confers, But all in Jesus' name; He gladly dictates, gladly hears, "Salvation to the Lamb."
Joseph Hart

 

[Alan Gross]

enlightenment of the Holy Spirit

We saw in the last post that enlightenment of the Holy Spirit is called:

II. ILLUMINATION.

"While only the regenerate are "renewed in knowledge" (Colossians 3:10) yet the unsaved can receive a degree of enlightenment.

"When a sinner is under conviction he may be ignorant of the nature of faith, but he sees clearly the danger of sin and the seriousness of eternity.

For the first time his soul becomes important.

Does not all this require a degree of illumination?"

they never come out and say that the quickening

the Holy Spirit is equivalent to being born again.

Quickening by the Holy Spirit is equivalent to being born again.

they are born again at that point.

"You hath He Quickened who was dead..."

...

The Person and Work of the Holy Spirit By Ron Crisp

Chapter 11 - The Work of the Holy Spirit in Regeneration

INTRODUCTION

"The words "born again" have today come into common use in religious circles. Knowing that Satan is a master of the redefining of Bible terms it, therefore, behooves us to continually assert the Scriptural meaning of these words.

I. THE NECESSITY OF THE NEW BIRTH.

A. In John 3:3 and 5, our Lord makes it clear that regeneration is necessary to salvation. Man not only needs forgiveness before he can fellowship with God, but his whole nature must be renewed. Fallen man is natural (I Corinthians 2:14), sensual (Jude 19), and carnal (Romans 8:5-7), as opposed to spiritual (I Corinthians 2:15). Christ reveals that there is an unchangeable distinction between that which is born of flesh and that which is born of the Spirit. The flesh may be religious, refined, educated and outwardly moral, but it is still flesh (John 3:6).

B. Every part of the natural man is defiled by sin. His mind is darkened to the things of God (I Corinthians 1:18, 2:14, Ephesians 4:18). His heart is in a state of enmity toward God (Romans 8:7, Jeremiah 17:9). His will is only free to carry out the desires of his depraved nature (John 1:13, Romans 9:16, Philippians 2:13). The flesh has become totally unprofitable in the things of God (John 6:63).

II. THE NATURE OF THE NEW BIRTH.

A. Regeneration defined.
The change required in man's soul to enable him to enter God's kingdom is called "regeneration" (Titus 3:5), being "born again" (John 3:3), or being "born of the Spirit" (John 3:6). Regeneration is an instantaneous work of God's Spirit whereby a holy disposition is given to the soul. The affections are renewed in love to God, and the mind is enlightened and made capable of understanding in the spiritual realm. Just as the change that takes place in the millennial earth is called regeneration (Matthew 19:28), so the new birth is a renewal of man's soul.

B. Regeneration illustrated.
The wonderful change that takes place in regeneration is illustrated in many ways. Let us examine some of the terminology applied to the New Birth to better illustrate its nature.
1. "Regeneration" or "Born Again" -- Are not these words merely human comparisons to what takes place in the miracle of grace upon the soul of man? In physical generation new life is imparted and family likeness produced. Are not these truths that which make birth a wonderful picture of the work of God's grace in man?
2. A resurrection -- Ephesians 2: 1, 5.
3. A renewal -- Colossians 3: 10.
4. A translation -- Colossians 1:13.
5. A new heart -- Ezekiel 36:26.
6. The writing of the Law in One's Heart -- Hebrews 8:10.
7. A new creature -- II Corinthians 5: 17.
8. The giving of light -- II Corinthians 4:6.
9. A good tree -- Matthew 7: 17.
10. A creation -- Ephesians 2:10.

C. Regeneration experienced. Regeneration is not experimental (something which may be experienced), but takes place on a level above the human consciousness. This is not to say that the new birth in never accompanied by strong emotions, but rather that the work of regeneration itself is not something felt, but is recognized by its fruit in one's life. Conversion is a result of the new birth and this we do experience. Regeneration is an act of God, but conversion is an act of man produced by the new birth.

III. THE AGENT IN REGENERATION.

A. Regeneration is not produced by baptism, the human will (John 1:13), or any work of man, but is a direct work of God upon the soul. Like the wind (powerful, uncontrollable and invisible) this work is in no way brought about, controlled or understood by man (John 3:8). This work which is often attributed to the Holy Spirit is an instantaneous and complete act of God upon the soul. While God uses means is the salvation of the elect, yet it must be understood that regeneration itself is not a co-operative effort. The Bible presents the new birth as an imperative and not as a command (John 3:3).

B. This brings us to the important question of the place of the gospel in regeneration. God's 'Word is often mentioned in connection with the new birth (I Corinthians 4:15, James 1:18, I Peter 1:23, Psalms 119:93). Just what part does the gospel play in this work? Some go so far as to teach that many are regenerated who have never heard the gospel. Let us consider this matter. (5)

C. We should first understand that while regeneration is a direct work of God upon man's soul, yet by its nature it is wrought in conjunction with the gospel. Regeneration produces faith, and faith is impossible without the gospel (Romans 10: 17). How can one believe upon a Saviour of whom he has never heard (Romans 10:14)? Regeneration also gives us a heart to know and love God (Jeremiah 24:7). This also implies a knowledge from the Scriptures of whom God is. If regeneration does not take place in conjunction with the Word of God then it can produce neither faith, love, holiness nor spiritual understanding.

D. In I Thessalonians 1:4-5, we find Paul telling the Thessalonian Christians that he knew of their election by the fact that the gospel had come to them in power. In regeneration God empowers the gospel by opening the heart to receive it (Acts 16:14). Many who have spent their lives in church have testified that when God saved them they felt as though they were hearing the gospel for the first time.

E. Those who teach that regeneration can occur apart from the gospel seem to fear that those who differ from them will give the gospel preacher part of the credit for God's work. They speak of our view as "gospel regeneration" and seem to believe that we have reduced regeneration to a mere work of moral persuasion.

These fears, however, are groundless. We view regeneration as a sovereign and direct work of God on the soul, but do not twist the Scriptures by teaching that people may experience it apart from the gospel. This would be like God giving man the power of sight yet failing to create light so that man might have something to see. It is an insult to the wisdom of God."

 

[DaveXR650]

@Alan Gross Thanks for coming up with all that. So you would agree that there is a lot of work that occurs on a person while they are still in a natural state and this is supernatural work, by the Holy Spirit, yet is not the same as outright being born again? I think it is also true that there is a level of natural ability when it comes to knowing right from wrong and wanting to avoid judgement. So with all that, there is a lot that can happen with anyone - without any direct action from the Holy Spirit.

What you put together seems to say a lot of things and what I think is still not clear is where exactly the line is between a man's natural ability to see all this and the work of the Holy Spirit. And what makes this truly confusing is that if you have a Calvinist view of things then there must be a point where there is a decisive, irresistible action from the Holy Spirit.
The question any non Calvinist will ask is what is the point of the various acts of the Holy Spirit that are short of the stroke of being born again if in the case of many of these people it was the intention of the Holy Spirit all along to finally in the end - leave them short of regeneration and saving faith.

If you have a very high view of God's sovereignty the answer is easy. Any action is the result of first being regenerated. The difficulty here is those people who seem to be described in scripture as going a long for a time but not persevering. There is ample evidence of the Holy Spirit working in someone's life short of regeneration as you showed above.

Another answer would be that the work of the Holy Spirit is resistible, and people are responsible in some way to cooperate with this conviction or else the Holy Spirit may withdraw this work of conviction and leave the person unsaved. This is what the Arminians and free will Baptists believe in some form or another, at least I think. It's also the way a lot of Puritan's actually preached - which is what has been bothering me.

 

[DaveXR650]

All you do is avoid scripture. You just ranted and never once showed us anything from Philippians 3.

That was my view of Philippians 3. I don't know why you would take that as a "rant". There is nothing there outside of an ordinary reading of the passage. The point is, the emphasis you put on the precise order of salvation is not there either.

 

[AustinC]

That was my view of Philippians 3. I don't know why you would take that as a "rant". There is nothing there outside of an ordinary reading of the passage. The point is, the emphasis you put on the precise order of salvation is not there either.

What was your view of Philippians 3?
I don't see any interpretation by you.
All I read is a passing comment about Philippians 3 with a quick pivot to your secondary source readings where you attempt to go while telling me I am obsessed with scripture.
Alan simply bombards you with secondary sources and you don't like that. It seems you just want to speak generally and drop names like Puritan, Calvin, Martin Lloyd Jones, etc., while not actually saying anything. That's fine. I know where you're coming from now.

 

[Alan Gross]

The question any non Calvinist will ask is what is the point of the various acts of the Holy Spirit that are short of the stroke of being born again if in the case of many of these people it was the intention of the Holy Spirit all along to finally in the end - leave them short of regeneration and saving faith.

The difficulty here is those people who seem to be described in scripture as going a long for a time but not persevering. There is ample evidence of the Holy Spirit working in someone's life short of regeneration as you showed above.

This is the Teaching of Hebrews 6:

Commentary by John Gill: Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? - Google Search

"by giving the characters of apostates, showing how far they may go in the knowledge of divine things, and yet fall away; by asserting the impossibility of their repentance and recovery, with the reason of it, taken from the blackness of their crimes, Hebrews 6:4 and the difference between them, and true believers, he illustrates by two sorts of earth, the one takes in the rain that comes down from heaven, and brings forth herbs for the use of its dresser, and is blessed of God: such are true believers in Christ, Hebrews 6:7 the other bears thorns and briers, and is rejected and cursed, and in the issue burned; and to such earth the above apostates may be compared,"

7 "For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;

8 "but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned."

Each of these three things are still talking of a lost soul experiencing them and yet remaining lost:

4: ” those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,"


4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,"

"such are meant, who are so enlightened as to see the evil effects of sin, but not the evil that is in sin; to see the good things which come by Christ, but not the goodness that is in Christ; so as to reform externally, but not to be sanctified internally; to have knowledge of the Gospel doctrinally, but not experimentally; yea, to have such light into it, as to be able to preach it to others, and yet be destitute of the grace of God"

"and have tasted of the heavenly gift,"

"but there are others who taste, but dislike what they taste; have no true love to Christ, and faith in him; or have only a carnal taste of him, know him only after the flesh, or externally, not inwardly and experimentally; or they have only a superficial taste, such as is opposed to eating the flesh, and drinking the blood of Christ, by faith, which is proper to true believers; the gust they have is but temporary, and arises from selfish principles."

"and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,"

"by the Holy Ghost is sometimes meant the gifts of the Spirit, ordinary or extraordinary, 1 Corinthians 12:4 and so here; and men may be said to be partakers of the Holy Ghost, to whom he gives wisdom and prudence in things natural and civil; the knowledge of things divine and evangelical, in an external way; the power of working miracles, of prophesying, of speaking with tongues, and of the interpretation of tongues; for the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost seem chiefly designed, which some, in the first times of the Gospel, were partakers of, who had no share in special grace, Matthew 7:22."

These, who remained lost, even had an "assurance", from their works "of false/ unregenerated faith".

These had a non-Spiritual/ fleshly "work of faith", per the OP:

Matthew 7:22

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?

and in thy name have cast out devils?

and in thy name done many wonderful works?

 

[DaveXR650]

What was your view of Philippians 3?
I don't see any interpretation by you.

Exactly. Philippians 3 does not need an "interpretation". At any rate, if there was something difficult about that passage, something that could be taken more than one way, or something that seemed to be different than what is said somewhere else, you know what I would do? I would consult a commentary or some book by someone I trusted to see what they said before I got on here and starting giving my private interpretation.

Alan simply bombards you with secondary sources and you don't like that.

What makes you say that I don't like that? That is false and I don't know why you would even say that. And why would you use the word "bombards" with Alan's post? It is one of the best summaries of what we have been talking about on here that I have seen. He's not taking me on. But his post illustrates what I've been talking about. He references outside works, not just scripture. And all those phrases you see - the degree of enlightenment, the seeing the danger of sin yet not understanding the nature of saving faith, where exactly regeneration occurs - these phases are familiar to me because I read commentaries and I know what he is talking about and where he is coming from.

And most important, whether I agree with his post on everything, I know for sure that everything he is saying is backed up by serious orthodox theologians and pastors because I can recognize these things from other sources I have read.

You, on the other hand, still think you are sitting in some seat of authority and whosoever does not answer your questions the way you want is worthy of rebuke. Get off it. If you want to disagree with a position I take fine. Making up a position you have decided I take and then rebuking it with authority you don't have is not going to work.

 

[Alan Gross]

Another answer would be that the work of the Holy Spirit is resistible, and people are responsible in some way to cooperate with this conviction or else the Holy Spirit may withdraw this work of conviction and leave the person unsaved.

The key to understanding this is that the lost soul is dead, having no ability and none given, to "resist".

"both election and reprobation, as being not of the works of men, but of the will of God; the former of these he proves, Romans 9:15, from Exodus 33:19, by which it appears, that the choice of men to salvation is not according to the will of man, but according to the grace and love of God, Romans 9:16, the latter he proves by the case of Pharaoh, Romans 9:17, and the Scripture relating to that, Exodus 9:16, and from both testimonies concludes, Romans 9:18, that God's having mercy on one, and hardening another, are according to his sovereign will and pleasure; then another objection rises, up, if so, God has no reason to find fault with men that are hardened in sin, since they are according to his will, and in sinning do but fulfil it, and which no man resists; and this objection is formed in a very pert and sneering manner, and insinuates that God is cruel and acts unreasonably, Romans 9:19, to which he answers, by putting the objector in mind that he was a man, a mere creature that started it, and that it was God against whom it was made; and by observing the folly and madness of replying against God, and the absurdity of such a procedure, taken from the consideration of the one being a creature, and the other the Creator, Romans 9:20, and by instancing in the case of the potter, who has power over his clay, to form it in what shape, and for what use he pleases, Romans 9:21, and accommodates this, both to the affair of election and reprobation, and to the business of the latter first, Romans 9:22, where he observes the end of God in it to show forth his power and wrath, and describes the subjects of it, which clears him from injustice, and points at the patience of God towards them, which frees him from the charge of cruelty, Romans 9:22, and then proceeds to apply the metaphor before used, to the objects of election styled vessels of mercy, and the end of the Lord to manifest the riches of his glory in them, and the method he takes to bring them to eternal happiness, by preparing them for it by grace, Romans 9:23, which is done in the effectual calling, the objects of which are both Jews and Gentiles, Romans 9:24, That it is the will of God that the Gentiles should be called, he proves, Romans 9:25, from some passages in Hosea, Hosea 2:23, and that God had chosen, and so would call some among the Jews, he clearly makes appear, Romans 9:27, from some prophecies of Isaiah, Isaiah 10:22, and then he concludes the chapter by observing the free and distinguishing grace of God, in the calling of the Gentiles, and the justification of them by the righteousness of Christ; that such who were far off from it, and sought not after it, should enjoy it, Romans 9:30, when the Israelites, who were diligent and zealous in seeking after a righteousness to justify them before God, yet did not arrive to one, Romans 9:31, the reasons of which are given, Romans 9:32, because it was not the righteousness of faith, or the righteousness of Christ received by faith they sought; but a legal one, and by works which can never be attained by sinful men: they sought after a wrong righteousness, and in a wrong way, because they stumbled at Christ, and rejected him and his righteousness"

Romans 9 Gill's Exposition

 

[DaveXR650]

"by giving the characters of apostates, showing how far they may go in the knowledge of divine things, and yet fall away; by asserting the impossibility of their repentance and recovery, with the reason of it, taken from the blackness of their crimes, Hebrews 6:4 and the difference between them, and true believers, he illustrates by two sorts of earth, the one takes in the rain that comes down from heaven, and brings forth herbs for the use of its dresser, and is blessed of God: such are true believers in Christ, Hebrews 6:7 the other bears thorns and briers, and is rejected and cursed, and in the issue burned; and to such earth the above apostates may be compared,"

You posted since I started this but it still looks to me like you have different "earth" or as in the parable different soils which has some reference to a judgement of the persons character, or at least a judgement of the person's response to the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit. Now I have argued on other threads free grace people that even if the Holy Spirit gives "help" rather than actual regeneration first, if the help is decisive to where the person could not have come to faith without it then there is a sense where the grace is "irresistible". And I know the WCF, with it's discussion of the general call, covers this in some way. I am just having trouble knowing how best to reconcile that it looks to me like the Holy Spirit, if he truly begins working in an individual, and then stops, that the work would be genuine, and that the reason the work does not result in salvation cannot be just the sovereign decision of the Holy Spirit to withdraw but has to be because of resistance on the part of the person.

I know I'm saying that in a clumsy manner but I guess it comes down to this. If a person can go quite far in actually appearing to become saved and begin to live the Christian life; and then that person goes back - it is easy to understand if they did this on their own, without the Holy Spirit.

But if the above person went as far as he did, and went back and fell away, and this was truly the work of the Holy Spirit, and the idea that this is all due to the Holy Spirit is true, then it seems that the explanation can be 2 possibilities:
a. The person resisted the Spirit or did something that caused the Spirit to withdraw.
b. This is still part of the process of election and the Holy Spirit helps people along the way, and brings them along
so far, and then drops them because of nothing but sovereign choice.

What is your opinion on this because to me, you have have the idea that grace is truly resistible, or you have what might be a problematic view of the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Alan Gross]

It's also the way a lot of Puritan's actually preached - which is what has been bothering me.

They preached to come, chose, decide, believe, have faith, etc., because the sinner is responsible to, while knowing that, of they do, it is the result of God's work of quickening.

See: Calvinism As An Evangelizing Force | Monergism

"We may, however, premise, on the ground of the doctrines included in this system, that it is certainly most favorable to the spread of Christianity.

"Its doctrines are all taken directly from the Scriptures. The word of God is its only infallible rule of faith and practice.

"Even its doctrine of predestination, or election, which most men dislike, but which all Christians practically believe and teach, is granted by some of its bitterest opponents to be a transcript of the teachings of the New Testament.

"The historian Froude says: "If Arminianism most commends itself to our feelings, Calvinism is nearer to the facts, however harsh and forbidding those facts may seem."

(1). And Archbishop Whately says the objections against it "are objections against the facts of the case." So Spinoza and John Stuart Mill and Buckle, and all the materialistic and metaphysical philosophers, can find," says an eminent authority, "no better account of the situation of man than in the illustrations of St. Paul;

'Hath not the potter power over the clay, to make one vessel to honor and another to dishonor?'"

"There never has been, and it is doubtful if there ever can be, an Arminian philosophy. The facts of life are against it; and no man would attempt to found a philosophy on feeling against fact.

"Arminian theologians thought they had discovered the starting-point for a systematic philosophy and theology in the doctrine of "free-will;" but even that was swept away from them by the logic of Jonathan Edwards, and it has continued to be swept farther and farther away by Buckle and Mill and all the great philosophers.

Hence it comes that to this day, there is not a logical and systematic body of Arminian divinity."



VI. FREE AGENCY AND CONVERSION

Man is unable to turn from sin until he is quickened by the Spirit of God. For proof of this see the passages given in proof of the fact that man cannot do otherwise than continue in sin so long as he is in his natural state...


"Man cannot do otherwise than continue in sin so long as he is in his natural state (Jer. 17:9; Prov. 4:23; Job 14-4; Jer. 13:23; John 6:65; Rom. 8:7,8; 1 Cor. 2:14). But his continuance in sin is not due to outside compulsion or restraint, but to his own character which causes him to choose darkness rather than light (John 3:19). He continues in sin for the same reason that a hog wallows in the mire."


The new nature, therefore, must be implanted logically (but not chronologically) prior to the exercise of repentance and faith.* This is the meaning of the New Hampshire Declaration of Faith when it says that repentance and faith are "inseparable graces wrought in our souls by the regenerating Spirit of God." This is also the teaching of Eph. 1:19,20.

"19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

(Alan note: this teaches that it takes the same power to bring a lost soul from death to life, "according to the working of his mighty power," as it did to Raise Jesus from the dead. "Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead".)

But when a man turns to God in repentance and faith he acts voluntarily and is thus a free agent. He is not compelled to turn by a power outside of his own nature. For, in implanting the new nature, the Holy Spirit operates "in the region of the soul below consciousness" (Strong).

Then that new nature, when implanted, becomes as much a part of the man as the old nature was; and it moves the will in strict conformity to the nature, laws, and normal action of the will.

Thus man is a free agent in conversion; and, of course, remains a free agent, although God continues to work in him "both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).

But this work, like the work of quickening, does not coerce the will."

__________



*For fuller discussion of this see chapter on "Conversion."

__________

 

[Alan Gross]

a. The person resisted the Spirit or did something that caused the Spirit to withdraw.
b. This is still part of the process of election and the Holy Spirit helps people along the way, and brings them along
so far, and then drops them because of nothing but sovereign choice.

What is your opinion on this because to me, you have have the idea that grace is truly resistible, or you have what might be a problematic view of the work of the Holy Spirit.

The lost soul is dead and remains dead until Quickened to ETERNAL LIFE and Raised from the dead, by the Power of God.

That spiritually dead soul is in no more position to resist God than Lazereth was in, dead in the grave, to resist Jesus' Command to, "come forth".