Candidates of Apostasy; Are you one?

[JonC]

This is the funniest and most ridiculous statement ever. It is akin to saying that physical death proves you were never alive

I don’t understand why the statement that temporary life cannot be eternal life is something you consider ridiculous, and this largely due to your explanation that “it is akin to saying that physical death proves you were never alive.” It seems that physical death proves mortality (that physical life is not eternal), not that life never existed. In fact, it proves the contrary (physical death implies having once lived physically).

Occasionally TCassidy will misinterpret a passage or doctrine (those times when he disagrees with me ), but I agree with him on this point. Eternal life is just that. If one has it and loses it, then it was never eternal. People who have eternal life are not found without eternal life.

If, however, you are arguing that one does not "receive" or enter into eternal life until “the end”, then I can understand your argument. But if this is your argument I think that you need to make it clear.

He made a mistake in wasting Israelites in the wilderness

I'd also be interested in knowing exactly why you think God made a mistake with Israel. I didn't see a follow up on that remark, but what I understand it to mean is that those years in the wilderness were not purposed by God (as revealed throughout the remainder of the Old and New Testament) but was instead of some kind of mistake.

I may be misreading you on both accounts, and if so then you have my apologies. I will add that much too often on the BB people are misread because their statements lack clarity. I would appreciate it if you would clarify for me those two issues.

 

[TCassidy]

As my salvation has been questioned in this thread I would like to reply with the Inspired, Inerrant, Infallible word of God.

1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know (perfect tense) that you have (present tense) eternal (never ending) life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."

For all the "bible experts" who don't know what a perfect tense verb means, it simply means something occurred earlier that resulted in the current state.

In other words, the faith I now have was obtained in the past which resulted in my presently knowing that I have eternal life.

That's bible. Accept it or reject it.

Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit."

Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, that no one would boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them."

 

[vooks]

Be very careful with this line of questioning.

Is that a threat?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Another consideration is are we sharing the same vocabulary. To the best of my knowledge, there is a difference between "perseverance of the saints" and "the eternal security of the believer". As I understand the term with perseverance of the saints, a person does not know his\her eternal destiny until the end. With the eternal security of the believer, a person can know.

 

[vooks]

I don’t understand why the statement that temporary life cannot be eternal life is something you consider ridiculous, and this largely due to your explanation that “it is akin to saying that physical death proves you were never alive.” It seems that physical death proves mortality (that physical life is not eternal), not that life never existed. In fact, it proves the contrary (physical death implies having once lived physically).

Eternal damnation does not prove that one never had eternal life anymore than physical death proves one was never alive

Occasionally TCassidy will misinterpret a passage or doctrine (those times when he disagrees with me ), but I agree with him on this point. Eternal life is just that. If one has it and loses it, then it was never eternal. People who have eternal life are not found without eternal life.

Because eternal life is not defined by possession but by retention

If, however, you are arguing that one does not "receive" or enter into eternal life until “the end”, then I can understand your argument. But if this is your argument I think that you need to make it clear.

Strawman
Eternal life is a conditional gift. It has an 'if'. You have it IF

I'd also be interested in knowing exactly why you think God made a mistake with Israel. I didn't see a follow up on that remark, but what I understand it to mean is that those years in the wilderness were not purposed by God (as revealed throughout the remainder of the Old and New Testament) but was instead of some kind of mistake.

I never said he made a mistake, but rather suggested that Canaan was a promise to all that left Israel yet not all made it. Canaan was conditional as is eternal life. You can't possibly argue that the ones who fell in the wilderness were never promised Canaan

I may be misreading you on both accounts, and if so then you have my apologies. I will add that much too often on the BB people are misread because their statements lack clarity. I would appreciate it if you would clarify for me those two issues.

what issues?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Putting on my Moderator hat in answer to your question. Yes.

Be very careful with this line of questioning.

Is that a threat?

 

[vooks]

Another consideration is are we sharing the same vocabulary. To the best of my knowledge, there is a difference between "perseverance of the saints" and "the eternal security of the believer". As I understand the term with perseverance of the saints, a person does not know his\her eternal destiny until the end. With the eternal security of the believer, a person can know.

You are almost there.
Perseverance of saints means God will keep his till the very end. It also necessarily means those who never hang on to the very end are not kept by God and were never saved.

These two points means that PRESENTLY, nobody can claim to persevere for while they may be in faith today, they may fall off tomorrow and this be proved to have never been saved contrary to their beliefs.

In short, the eternal security/guarantee of believers turns out to be eternal insecurity. The ultimate test of your salvation is simply hanging on to the end. But how do I know you have hanged on to the end unless you get to the very end?

 

[vooks]

Putting on my Moderator hat in answer to your question. Yes.

I don't understand. What is the sin in this case, interrogating the nature of salvation?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

And that is why you need to, to quote Mayor Shinn of River City, Iowa, " watch your phraseology." You need to be cautious about personalizing your inquiry.

I don't understand. What is the sin in this case, interrogating the nature of salvation?

 

[JonC]

Eternal damnation does not prove that one never had eternal life anymore than physical death proves one was never alive

No, it just proves that what you were calling "eternal life" was not so eternal. No one argues that death proves one did not have life, just that the life had was not eternal (hence death).

Because eternal life is not defined by possession but by retention

No, eternal is defined by duration, not retention. Life that does not last forever is simply not life that lasts forever. I don't understand why this alludes your grasp.

Strawman
Eternal life is a conditional gift. It has an 'if'. You have it IF

No, I don't have it "if." I have you at "if" ("if you are arguing..."). Here's another - if you cannot be faithful in dealing with what I, being nothing, posted then what reasonable assurance is there that you will with what God has said?

I never said he made a mistake, but rather suggested that Canaan was a promise to all that left Israel yet not all made it. Canaan was conditional as is eternal life.

Sure you did. In fact, that is exactly what you said:

He made a mistake in wasting Israelites in the wilderness

I agree with you that there is a condition (regardless of who meets that condition....God or man). But your mistake is in assuming that the "gift" itself comes with that condition. My argument is that there is no assurance of eternal life/saved/entering the Kingdom except that which is gained by examining our lives. Scripture speaks of those who are saved/ have eternal life/ are a part of the Kingdom as the exact same people who will be saved/ will be granted eternal life/ will enter the Kingdom. Until you understand that simple fact I really do not see your argument growing into something biblically defensible.

 

[vooks]

And that is why you need to, to quote Mayor Shinn of River City, Iowa, " watch your phraseology." You need to be cautious about personalizing your inquiry.

We can dissect salvation as an abstract impersonal topic, right?

 

[vooks]

No, it just proves that what you were calling "eternal life" was not so eternal. No one argues that death proves one did not have life, just that the life had was not eternal (hence death).

Physical death does not mean one never was physically alive just as spiritual death does not mean one was spiritually alive

No, eternal is defined by duration, not retention. Life that does not last forever is simply not life that lasts forever. I don't understand why this alludes your grasp.

Do infants have eternal life?

No, I don't have it "if." I have you at "if" ("if you are arguing..."). Here's another - if you cannot be faithful in dealing with what I, being nothing, posted then what reasonable assurance is there that you will with what God has said?
I agree with you that there is a condition (regardless of who meets that condition....God or man). But your mistake is in assuming that the "gift" itself comes with that condition.

The gift is conditional. Period.
This means possession the gift is conditional and not absolute. You are alive as long as you are breathing....an oversimplified analogy

My argument is that there is no assurance of eternal life/saved/entering the Kingdom except that which is gained by examining our lives. Scripture speaks of those who are saved/ have eternal life/ are a part of the Kingdom as the exact same people who will be saved/ will be granted eternal life/ will enter the Kingdom. Until you understand that simple fact I really do not see your argument growing into something biblically defensible.

All great points but..do you have eternal life?

 

[JonC]

Physical death does not mean one never was physically alive just as spiritual death does not mean one was spiritually alive

I understand that point, but that spiritual death was not associated with the gift of "eternal life."

Do infants have eternal life?

I don't know.

The gift is conditional. Period.
This means possession the gift is conditional and not absolute. You are alive as long as you are breathing....an oversimplified analogy

The giving is conditional, not the gift.

All great points but..do you have eternal life?

And yes, I am saved.

 

[TCassidy]

All great points but..do you have eternal life?

You were warned about questioning any individual regarding his eternal salvation. Last warning. Either discuss this subject in the abstract or don't discuss it at all.

 

[vooks]

I understand that point, but that spiritual death was not associated with the gift of "eternal life."

ok

I don't know.

Really?

You don't know who has and who has not eternal life?

How does one get eternal life?

The giving is conditional, not the gift.

The giving of the gift is conditional but the gift is not. You are hilarious. What is the condition for giving if I may ask?

And yes, I am saved.

Which makes you immune from eternal damnation even if you worshipped the beast, right?

PS
By 'you' I mean a saved individual and not you @JonC δοῦλος

 

[vooks]

You were warned about questioning any individual regarding his eternal salvation. Last warning. Either discuss this subject in the abstract or don't discuss it at all.

Abstract is cool?
Far enough

 

[JonC]

ok

Really?

You don't know who has and who has not eternal life?

Yes, really. I don't know how God works in the lives of infants.

How does one get eternal life?

This question has been asked and answered several times in Scripture. Here I think it best to teach one to fish rather than simply offering a meal. Try reading John, your answer is there.

The giving of the gift is conditional but the gift is not. You are hilarious. What is the condition for giving if I may ask?

John 17:3 defines eternal life. The way that people are saved is by God, through faith in Jesus Christ. You see, Vooks, God gave His Son that any who would believe in Him would have eternal life. I think that many if not all of these questions you have will be answered in that Gospel.

Which makes you immune from eternal damnation even if you worshipped the beast, right?

Which means that if I were to worship the Beast then it would demonstrate that I never had been saved in the first place. Again, read John (this time his epistles).

Some make the mistake of pointing to a time of belief as our assurance we have been saved. Others make the mistake of denying such assurance and focusing solely on the salvation that is to come. Both of these positions are denied in Scripture (pointing out one error does not justify your own error).

PS
By 'you' I mean a saved individual and not you @JonC δοῦλος

We abide by the rules of the forum. Personally, I don't care one bit if you question my salvation. I have an answer for the faith that is in me. We are repeatedly called in Scripture to test our own salvation to see if we are indeed among the elect (I realize that this may seem hilarious or silly to you, yet it is repeated by John, Peter, and Paul). But I don't mind people questioning my salvation and am never offended when people do so. Just remember it is against the rules here.

 

[revmwc]

Eternal damnation does not prove that one never had eternal life anymore than physical death proves one was never alive


Because eternal life is not defined by possession but by retention


Strawman
Eternal life is a conditional gift. It has an 'if'. You have it IF



I never said he made a mistake, but rather suggested that Canaan was a promise to all that left Israel yet not all made it. Canaan was conditional as is eternal life. You can't possibly argue that the ones who fell in the wilderness were never promised Canaan


what issues?

In instructing the Corinthians on the man who was in gross sin we see Paul stating this:

1 Corinthians 5:4-6
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

A believer in gross sin and continues in it will be turned over to satan for destruction of the flesh, but what of their salvation their eternal spirit, it will be saved in the day of the Lord. They don't lose their salvation.

More examples, 1 Timothy 1:19-20,
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Those who do not hold the faith and a good conscience are still saved yet Paul turned them over to satan, as he advised the Corinthians to do, yet their spirit would be saved. These two put away concerning faith and made the teaching shipwrecked, Paul didn't say they lost their salvation he said so they would learn not to blaspheme.

 

[revmwc]

ok

Really?

You don't know who has and who has not eternal life?

How does one get eternal life?

The giving of the gift is conditional but the gift is not. You are hilarious. What is the condition for giving if I may ask?

Which makes you immune from eternal damnation even if you worshipped the beast, right?

PS
By 'you' I mean a saved individual and not you @JonC δοῦλος

Romans 8:27
And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Christ searches and knows the heart man is not God and cannot tell if the heart is righteous or unrighteous. Paul does say,
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Confession is made by the mouth, many say they have believed they confess but only the Lord can see their heart.

Romans 16:
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Many can be deceived as believers the hearts of the simple can be drawn away, that is an immature believer who is not well grounded can be drawn away by the false teacher.

 

[DHK]

In all likelihood all of us can name an individual off their head who they consider to be a text-book example of apostasy. While of course few would consider themselves apostates and Christians at the same time, very few Christians, in my opinion, ponder their chances of going rogue and turning apostates.

To get back to the OP:
We all hear of men like Charles Templeton.
http://www.cstnews.com/bm/other-hot...athetic-preacher-dies-in-unbelief~print.shtml
--He preached alongside Billy Graham in some of his great crusades. And then suddenly apostatized. How could it be? Apparently Templeton could never come to grips with the inspiration of the Scriptures, and even though had the ability to preach a great sermon was probably never saved in the first place.
The Lord knows them that are his.

Is there any chance of completely renouncing your faith....treading underfoot the Son of God,counting the blood of the covenant that sanctified you as unholy, and despising the Spirit of grace like the subject of this verse?

Hebrews 10:29 (KJV)
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? .

PS
Please include a brief rationale for your answer.

There is a lot of misunderstanding about the Book of Hebrews. I am sure there will be some that disagree with me, nevertheless, I disagree with your assumption that this verse can be used for a believer losing his salvation. Far from it.

First, the overall context of the entire book must be considered. The author was writing to discouraged Hebrew Christians. Like Muslim converts of today they had been cast out of their own families, persecuted by them, as well as the Roman government. They, in many cases, had nothing left to turn to.
The author says:
Hebrews 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
--Their houses had been ransacked, their goods taken, and they had nothing left.

How easy would it be to "turn back" to "Temple Worship," to go back to the priests, their families, their old form of worship, that which they were comfortable with, than face all this persecution. The problem was (just like a Muslim today), once you become a Christian you cannot turn back to false religion like Judaism or Islam. It is impossible. Thus the author shows how much better is true biblical Christianity than what they had before--their worship in Judaism (which they cannot return to). It is impossible. (And it is impossible for a converted Muslim today to turn back to Islam).

Hebrews 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
--Here is the comparison again.
Those that despised Moses law were punished severely. According to Deu.17:2-6, he died without mercy. He was put to death according to the law.

What about those who have trodden under foot the Son of God..? A true Christian who has the Holy Spirit dwelling in Him cannot do such a thing.
They are "sanctified" or set apart by Christ. How can he count the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified unholy? He cannot. But that is what he would be doing if he were to return to the Temple, and start offering Old Testament sacrifices again.
He can't go back. Over and over again the writer admonishes: "Let us go on..." They can't go back; they must go on...go on unto perfection or completion...look unto Jesus, not being discouraged.

This is a sin a believer cannot commit. A believer cannot lose his salvation.