Cannot believe?

[Winman]

Before the natural man is regenerated, he has no desire to know spiritual things, in fact, he cannot know spiritual things according to 1 Cor 2:14.

Your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14 cannot be correct, for in the very same book Paul says if unbelievers come in and hear the church prophesy in words easy to be understood he will be convinced by all, and judged by all, and falling down on his face will worship God. (1 Cor 14:24-25). 1 Cor 2:14 is not discussing the gospel, but the "deep" things of God (vs. 10).

Yes, there are many scriptures that if we believe we can be saved.

Yes, and Jesus says that when we believe we have "everlasting" life.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Believing can save (deliver) us from many things of this world as we live here, but believing is not the cause of our eternal salvation.

And I just showed you that Jesus said those that hear his word and believe have everlasting life.

Salvation is a deliverance. Do you believe that when we pray to God to deliver us from a sickness that we have, and he does, thats a deliverance (salvation) we receive here in this world. If you apply all salvation sctiptures to eternal you will never understand the doctrine of Christ.

I understand the difference between being saved out of a sickness or particular situation where we are in danger, but Jesus said those that believe on him have everlasting life and will not come into condemnation.

You know these verses as well as I, but you try to change the meaning. Jesus is not speaking of illness or being in a situation of danger here, he is speaking of being forgiven all our sins and given everlasting life, never to come into condemnation. These scriptures are very straightforward and easy to understand, but you change the meaning.

 

[saturneptune]

Your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14 cannot be correct, for in the very same book Paul says if unbelievers come in and hear the church prophesy in words easy to be understood he will be convinced by all, and judged by all, and falling down on his face will worship God. (1 Cor 14:24-25). 1 Cor 2:14 is not discussing the gospel, but the "deep" things of God (vs. 10).


Yes, and Jesus says that when we believe we have "everlasting" life.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.And I just showed you that Jesus said those that hear his word and believe have everlasting life.

I understand the difference between being saved out of a sickness or particular situation where we are in danger, but Jesus said those that believe on him have everlasting life and will not come into condemnation.

You know these verses as well as I, but you try to change the meaning. Jesus is not speaking of illness or being in a situation of danger here, he is speaking of being forgiven all our sins and given everlasting life, never to come into condemnation. These scriptures are very straightforward and easy to understand, but you change the meaning.

Winman,
I believe you had better points in the post, since I am of neither camp. I would describe your post as "cannot see the trees for the Forest." (terrible play on words)

All sarcasm aside, there seems to me to be lots of differences caused by Romans 1 being mixed up with being able to hear the Gospel.

Romans 1 without a doubt says we have it within us, put there when God created us, to know there is a God. If one has any deductive reasoning, that can be exteneded to know there is a God that cares for us, because we are here, alive, and our needs are being met.

Hearing the Gospel of salvation is another matter, subject, arena, whatever one wants to call it. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God to learn the Gospel. That is a completely different delivery system than being able to preceive there is a God built into us. That will not save us in itself.

The only connection the two have is that we must believe there is a God before we believe there is a Savior. John states that.

I looked back over my posts from yesterday to you, and need to apologize. Some of my attempts at humor and sarcasm probably went over the line in name calling. I really did not mean to do that. Your posts are well done, researched, and I enjoy reading them.

 

[Winman]

Winman,
I believe you had better points in the post, since I am of neither camp. I would describe your post as "cannot see the trees for the Forest." (terrible play on words)

All sarcasm aside, there seems to me to be lots of differences caused by Romans 1 being mixed up with being able to hear the Gospel.

Romans 1 without a doubt says we have it within us, put there when God created us, to know there is a God. If one has any deductive reasoning, that can be exteneded to know there is a God that cares for us, because we are here, alive, and our needs are being met.

Hearing the Gospel of salvation is another matter, subject, arena, whatever one wants to call it. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God to learn the Gospel. That is a completely different delivery system than being able to preceive there is a God built into us. That will not save us in itself.

The only connection the two have is that we must believe there is a God before we believe there is a Savior. John states that.

I looked back over my posts from yesterday to you, and need to apologize. Some of my attempts at humor and sarcasm probably went over the line in name calling. I really did not mean to do that. Your posts are well done, researched, and I enjoy reading them.

Thank you, and I apologize for my sarcasm as well. :love2:

You know, you are not quite in the Reformed/Calvinist camp. You recognize from Romans 1 that men can "know" about God, because God has shown them.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Notice that verse 19 speaks of "that which may be known of God". So, I believe this implies men have a limited knowledge of God. They cannot possibly know the gospel of Jesus Christ and believe on him by simple observation of the creation around them, but I believe they can know and understand enough to seek for God. They surely know enough to know there is a God and are therefore responsible to seek for him. Would you agree?

Men also by nature know some acts are contrary to nature.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

These verses argue that man by nature understands that some actions are wrong and sin, in this case it is speaking of h*m*sexuality. I believe this is OBVIOUS to all if you know what I mean. You cannot plug a male electrical plug into another male electrical plug, it must be plugged into a female socket. So, it is pretty easy to understand the male and female were designed for each other, and that men with men, and women with women is unnatural.

So, men are not nearly so depraved as Calvinism teaches. They are not utterly oblivious to what is right and wrong. Not only this, but Paul further shows men are able to do what is right.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

The scriptures do not show unregenerate man unable to understand and do that which is lawful and right, they show exactly the opposite, that all men have the law written on their hearts and also have a conscience.

Calvinists skip over all these verses and go straight to Romans 3 to proof-text Total Depravity. They choose to overlook the first two chapters which show men not only can conceive of God and know what is right and wrong, but are able to perform it also.

I am glad to see that you see this in Romans 1.

 

[saturneptune]

Well, you understand me better. I am in neither camp, and attribute it to the differences between Romans 1 and faith cometh by hearing. Look forward to exchanging posts in the future.

 

[Skandelon]

You will need to provide the quote where I call people names, such as heretic, otherwise this is a baseless and false accusation.

Still waiting... :sleep:

 

[Winman]

Well, you understand me better. I am in neither camp, and attribute it to the differences between Romans 1 and faith cometh by hearing. Look forward to exchanging posts in the future.

Well, who has to do the hearing?

You know, it is God who makes crops grow, but the farmer still has to go out and plow his field and plant the seed. If the farmer does not do this, no crops will grow. However, it is still true that only God has the power to make the crops grow.

1 Cor 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Notice that we are to take no credit for planting and watering (listening and learning) but to God who gives the increase. If God had not provided his Word, it would be impossible for us to listen, learn from, and believe it. You cannot believe what you do not know.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Likewise, we have to hear, we have to be willing to listen and learn. Even so, we should not glory or boast, for unless God had revealed his truth to us, we would all remain in total darkness and have no hope of being saved.

 

[jbh28]

Still waiting... :sleep:

Well, I have where you admitted to doing it.

...I call people names, such as heretic...

ellipses work really well!

 

[jbh28]

The foundation of Calvinist/Reformed theology is the doctrine of Total Depravity or Total Inability that states the unregenerated man cannot receive or understand spiritual matters and therefore cannot believe on Christ. The text proof for this is 1 Cor 2:14. But is this what the scriptures really teach? Consider 1 Cor 14;

1 Cor 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

In this chapter, Paul is rebuking these Corinthians for their abuse of the spiritual gift of tongues, and showing the advantage of speaking in words easily to be understood.

Note that Paul says if an unbeliever comes in and hears all the church speaking in unknown (to him) tongues, he will think all the members of the church are insane.

But if he hears words that are easy to be understood, he will be CONVINCED by all, and convicted (secrets of his heart made manifest) and he will fall on his face and WORSHIP GOD.

So, we see here that an unbeliever can be taught, convinced, and convicted to believe in Christ. There is no mention of a supernatural regeneration here, it says the man will be CONVINCED.

This agrees with Christ's statement in John 6:45 where he says those who have heard, been taught, and learned from the Father shall come to him.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

No man can come unto Jesus unless he has been taught by the Father. This is the very point Paul is making in 1 Corinthians 14, that the church should teach in words and language that are easy to be understood. Paul also shows that unbelievers can be convinced and convicted by this simple preaching resulting in that they will fall down and worship God.

So, the scriptures do not teach that unbelievers cannot understand the preaching of the gospel.

So what role would the Spirit take in this unbeliever being convicted?

 

[Winman]

So what role would the Spirit take in this unbeliever being convicted?

God's word is Spirit.

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

God's Word is not ordinary words, they are spirit, and they are life. Do not ask me to explain this, I cannot, but that is what Jesus himself said.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Again, the word of God is not ordinary words, they are quick and powerful, they can pierce the heart and convict the hardest sinner. They are a truth which all men inwardly know is true. They teach, they give knowledge...

But man must do the hearing. God came down to speak to us in a way we could understand, through hearing, and through the understanding of the mind. It is not that we reach up to God, it is that he came down and met us on our level.

 

[Skandelon]

Well, I have where you admitted to doing it.



ellipses work really well!

:laugh: That is about the best he'll be able to find I suppose.

You'd think if someone had the audacity to infer someone is a hypocrite they'd at least have an instance in mind while doing it.

 

[convicted1]

someone is a hypocrite

Now you're at it again! Who's the hypocrite this time? Shame on you Brother, shame..... :laugh: :wavey: :love2:

 

[Skandelon]

You two would be great in politics.

 

[Skandelon]

Now you're... the hypocrite...Shame on you

Wha Chew talkin 'bout Willis?!?

 

[convicted1]

Wha Chew talkin 'bout Willis?!?

I really need to find out who the writer was for "Different Strokes", and send them a little hatemail.....:laugh: they have ruined my name!!! :laugh:

 

[Forest]

Your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14 cannot be correct, for in the very same book Paul says if unbelievers come in and hear the church prophesy in words easy to be understood he will be convinced by all, and judged by all, and falling down on his face will worship God. (1 Cor 14:24-25). 1 Cor 2:14 is not discussing the gospel, but the "deep" things of God (vs. 10).


Yes, and Jesus says that when we believe we have "everlasting" life.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.




And I just showed you that Jesus said those that hear his word and believe have everlasting life.



I understand the difference between being saved out of a sickness or particular situation where we are in danger, but Jesus said those that believe on him have everlasting life and will not come into condemnation.

You know these verses as well as I, but you try to change the meaning. Jesus is not speaking of illness or being in a situation of danger here, he is speaking of being forgiven all our sins and given everlasting life, never to come into condemnation. These scriptures are very straightforward and easy to understand, but you change the meaning.

John 5:24, the natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14 cannot hear Christ's word, only his sheep hear his voice. The natural man cannot descern spiritual things, small, deep, shallow or anything that is of a spiritual nature. If you are interpreting that verse to mean the natural man can understand the simple things and not the deep things, you are missinterpreting the verse.

 

[Forest]

God's word is Spirit.

Jhn 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

God's Word is not ordinary words, they are spirit, and they are life. Do not ask me to explain this, I cannot, but that is what Jesus himself said.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Again, the word of God is not ordinary words, they are quick and powerful, they can pierce the heart and convict the hardest sinner. They are a truth which all men inwardly know is true. They teach, they give knowledge...

But man must do the hearing. God came down to speak to us in a way we could understand, through hearing, and through the understanding of the mind. It is not that we reach up to God, it is that he came down and met us on our level.

Those who have ears to hear, let them hear. All men do not have ears to hear. Only his sheep know his voice.

 

[Forest]

The foundation of Calvinist/Reformed theology is the doctrine of Total Depravity or Total Inability that states the unregenerated man cannot receive or understand spiritual matters and therefore cannot believe on Christ. The text proof for this is 1 Cor 2:14. But is this what the scriptures really teach? Consider 1 Cor 14;

1 Cor 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

In this chapter, Paul is rebuking these Corinthians for their abuse of the spiritual gift of tongues, and showing the advantage of speaking in words easily to be understood.

Note that Paul says if an unbeliever comes in and hears all the church speaking in unknown (to him) tongues, he will think all the members of the church are insane.

But if he hears words that are easy to be understood, he will be CONVINCED by all, and convicted (secrets of his heart made manifest) and he will fall on his face and WORSHIP GOD.

So, we see here that an unbeliever can be taught, convinced, and convicted to believe in Christ. There is no mention of a supernatural regeneration here, it says the man will be CONVINCED.

This agrees with Christ's statement in John 6:45 where he says those who have heard, been taught, and learned from the Father shall come to him.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

No man can come unto Jesus unless he has been taught by the Father. This is the very point Paul is making in 1 Corinthians 14, that the church should teach in words and language that are easy to be understood. Paul also shows that unbelievers can be convinced and convicted by this simple preaching resulting in that they will fall down and worship God.

So, the scriptures do not teach that unbelievers cannot understand the preaching of the gospel.

1 Cor 14 does not prove your point that the natural man can believe and descern spiritual things. 1 Cor 2:14. There are many more of God's elect that do not believe Christ's doctrine than there are that believe his doctrine. Just because someone does not believe and understand the doctrine of Christ does not make them unsaved eternally. 2 Tit 2:13. When we are quickened together with Christ, Eph 2:5, we are in Christ whether we understand his doctrine or not.

 

[Forest]

Both sides believe that no one can come to Jesus without the Father, as is evidenced with Peter's confession, and the Lord said it was revealed to him from heaven. Also, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

You know what, maybe a radical concept to those who start thread after thread with either a free will or Calvin agenda, but maybe we would all learn more if we went into threads and discussed common ground instead of starting off with a chip on our shoulder.

Romans 1 makes it clear that we all have an internal ability to know there is a God. From that point, faith, comes by hearing.......... Now, it is the free willers who accuse Calvinists of making the contention that your thread is named after. That is not what Calvinists believe. You picture their theology as God up in heaven with a magic want zapping the elect with a regneration lightning bolt. That is not true. It merely puts a false divide between the two camps. Faith comes by hearing regardless of your theological opinion. If you talk to someone about the Lord, he or she will either respond then or later depending on the Lord.

This is where both sides are brain dead. You and Calvinists have no idea how the Holy Spirit is working along with the individual after hearing the Word of God. Welcome to the new third position.

Faith cometh by hearing, but only God's sheep can hear his voice,John 10:27-28, and if they are his sheep they are born of the Spirit. Those that have not the Spirit are none of his,Rom 8:9.

 

[Forest]

Both sides believe that no one can come to Jesus without the Father, as is evidenced with Peter's confession, and the Lord said it was revealed to him from heaven. Also, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

You know what, maybe a radical concept to those who start thread after thread with either a free will or Calvin agenda, but maybe we would all learn more if we went into threads and discussed common ground instead of starting off with a chip on our shoulder.

Romans 1 makes it clear that we all have an internal ability to know there is a God. From that point, faith, comes by hearing.......... Now, it is the free willers who accuse Calvinists of making the contention that your thread is named after. That is not what Calvinists believe. You picture their theology as God up in heaven with a magic want zapping the elect with a regneration lightning bolt. That is not true. It merely puts a false divide between the two camps. Faith comes by hearing regardless of your theological opinion. If you talk to someone about the Lord, he or she will either respond then or later depending on the Lord.

This is where both sides are brain dead. You and Calvinists have no idea how the Holy Spirit is working along with the individual after hearing the Word of God. Welcome to the new third position.

Faith cometh by hearing, but only his sheep can hear his voice,John 10:27-28, and if they are his sheep they are already born of the Spirit.Rom 8:9.

 

[Forest]

I find it very revealing that you, and Forest, on opposite ends of the spectrum, are both hammering my posts. There seems to be Romans 1 being mixed up with hearing the Gospel. Romans 1 addresses man's ability to know there is a Creator. Hearing the Gospel leads to faith in Jesus Christ. I have said in post after post, that man's free will and God's sovereignty work in perfect harmony, and exactly how is a mystery.

In fact, in one of John's letters, does he not state that before salvation, one must believe there is a God. Knowing there is a God is only the first step to knowing Jesus Christ. God created man, and gave him the inward ability to recognize his existence. Extending that to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ is quite a different matter. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. If one hears, he may or may not respond. The inner workings of how this comes about, the response, is a working of the Lord, and neither you, nor the other side, have any special knowledge on the matter.

As far as your last statement, I will tell you anything I choose. As you said in an earlier post, this is a debate thread.

Faith comes by hearing, but who can hear? Those who have ears to hear, let them hear, Matt 11:15, Matt 13:9, Matt 13:43, Mark 4:9, Mark 4:23, Luke 8:8, Luke 14:35. Only God's sheep can hear and know his voice,John 10:3. If they are his sheep, they are already saved eternally.