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Catholic Bashing Threads/Posts

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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
In Vatican II they were walking a fine line.

1. They could not repudiate all their previous "salvation only inside the Catholic church" nor lessen it to the point that people would feel free to reject the essential principle of being a member of the RCC.

2. But they needed to open a way for non-Catholics to be "saved" or risk isolating themsevles -

Catholic Digest. May 1994. Fr. Ken Ryan … page 124

I ask the lead question for the month of May---

“Your June 1993 issue had a most interesting question regarding the New Covenant. Your answer said that people come under the New Covenant by joining the Catholic Church and taking part in the Catholic Mass, but said nothing about there being any other ways of entering the New Covenant or about limiting salvation to those under the New Covenant. Are there (in Catholic thought) any other ways of salvation, and if there are, doesn’t that fact make the Catholic New Covenant (joining the Catholic church and attending Mass) unnecessary?” Bob.

The Answer – By Fr. Ken Ryan

“Not in Catholic theology. God is fair to everyone so He offers His salvation to everyone. THE invitation is issued through the New Covenant[/b], and human acceptance of the invitation is properly expressed by membership in the Catholic Church And participation in Christ’s sacrifice of Himself in the Mass. The New Covenant, in its Catholic meaning, is the ordinary way of salvation (getting to heaven).

God’s expressed command is that everyone belong to the Catholic Church[/b] He founded. “He who hears Me” was spoken to the 70 disciples whom He had organized to speak for Him in places He did not personally visit.

The invitation to membership in the New Covenant is for all people in general, but the acceptance has to be by the individual. One certainly can’t decline an invitation he or she has never heard of. Accordingly, the Catholic Church does not deny the possibility of salvation except to those who have heard the invitation, understood its meaning, and nevertheless rejected it. Those who have never heard it, never understood it, or never made any deliberate rejection of the invitation can still be saved in some extraordinary way., some way other than joining the Catholic Church and participating in the Mass. All these possible ways can be summarized by saying that all persons who sincerely try to have a properly informed conscience and then follow that conscience in their moral actions can be saved by this extraordinary way God offers to all.

New Covenant as a term is much more prevalent in non-Catholic popular literature than it is in Catholic writings, and has various meanings. But it was Christ Himself who identified it with the Mass which non-Catholics have rejected.

“This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood” was spoken at the Last Supper (the first Mass).
So, according to Catholic thought the New Covenant is the ordinary way to heaven, commanded for our use by Christ, which nevertheless allows salvation by the extraordinary action of God.
 

Gold Dragon

Well-Known Member
Eliyahu said:
- No Salvation outside Roman Catholic Church

The reference folks are looking for regarding the RCC position on the salvation of those outside the RCC

Catechism of the Catholic Church


819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."
 

D28guy

New Member
Darron,

"Hatred, on the other hand, is an emotion. If you are speaking the truth motivated by hatred, it does not remove the emotion"

And now you are attempting to judge our hearts???

I have not posted one single post on this website or any other website with any "hatred" in my heart for anyone.

And regarding a previous charge of yours, in a post to me...

"It is the "in love" part that seems to be ignored by you, and by others.

Some of you seem to revel in making unneeded personal remarks about Catholics that are above and beyond criticizing their religious tenets."

Could you please post a quote from a post of mine where I made an un-needed *personal* attack directed at another poster *personally*?

My modus operendi has always been to adress the doctrines, beliefs, and practices, comparing them with the truth found in the scriptures...and not attack the poster.

Mike
 

Darron Steele

New Member
D28guy said:
Darron,



And now you are attempting to judge our hearts???

I have not posted one single post on this website or any other website with any "hatred" in my heart for anyone.
Well, if you do not hate Catholics, I sure cannot tell.

By what you put in your posts against Catholics and the tone you use does not leave me any impression. Your defending the actions of people who go even farther than you do cannot leave me any other impression.

And regarding a previous charge of yours, in a post to me...



Could you please post a quote from a post of mine where I made an un-needed *personal* attack directed at another poster *personally*?

My modus operendi has always been to adress the doctrines, beliefs, and practices, comparing them with the truth found in the scriptures...and not attack the poster.

Mike
Actually, I never said you made an unneeded personal attack on another poster. You folks wear me out trying to divert the thread off the issue.

You do make these against Catholic persons routinely -- or defend the actions of those who do.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1154200&postcount=109
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1152521#post1152521

You see, Catholics do not worship Mary as a goddess. They worship her like a goddess. It is a subtle difference, but still a difference.

Also, the murders by Catholic authorities in centuries past and in other parts of the world do not mean that all Catholics are murderous. That is clearly implied by the rhetoric of one of those posts.
 
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GodlyWoman

New Member
GodlyWoman said:
When someone dies, we, as Christians believe, that they're born again and now living in the presence of God. They are, in every sense of the word, "alive"

standingfirminChrist said:
Not all "Christians" believe this.

SaggyWoman said:
It is Catholics and Greek Orthodox that believe this.

No. It's NOT just Catholics and Orthodox who believe in this—i.e. THE RESURRECTION.

Christ says that when a person dies they're resurrected into a new life with God in Heaven.

When some pray to Mary, the saints, and dead loved ones and ask them to pray with them to God, they're praying to people who were resurrected into a new life with God in Heaven and are very much alive.

Do you believe in resurrection?

What do you believe happens to people who die if they're not born again and now living in the presence of God and are very much "alive"?
 
They are not born again in the resurrection. If they were not born again before death, they won't be born again after death.

And if they are praying to other than God, they are not born again anyway. A born again person is obedient to Christ and prays to God, not Mary, Grandma, Grandpa, Uncle, Aunt, Cousin or any other dead person.
 

GodlyWoman

New Member
Darron Steele said:
You see, Catholics do not worship Mary as a goddess. They worship her like a goddess. It is a subtle difference, but still a difference.

Quite honestly, many Protestants seem to worship the Bible as sole authority than Catholics worship Mary. And let me tell you, Bible worship is even more scarier than Mary worship!...
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: "We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation." Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation. He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them. Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

618 The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the "one mediator between God and men".452 But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, "the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery" is offered to all men.453 He calls his disciples to "take up [their] cross and follow [him]",454 for "Christ also suffered for [us], leaving [us] an example so that [we] should follow in his steps."455 In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries.456 This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.457 (blasphemy)


1359 The Eucharist, the sacrament of our salvation accomplished by Christ on the cross, is also a sacrifice of praise in thanksgiving for the work of creation. In the Eucharistic sacrifice the whole of creation loved by God is presented to the Father through the death and the Resurrection of Christ. Through Christ the Church can offer the sacrifice of praise in thanksgiving for all that God has made good, beautiful, and just in creation and in humanity.
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
The Second Edition English Translation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church includes the corrections promulgated by Pope John Paul II on 8 September 1997. These corrections to the English text of the Catechism of the Catholic Church were made to harmonize it with the official Latin text promulgated by Pope John Paul II on the same date. For details of the corrections, see the editio typica modifications to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
All of the above quotes taken from the current catechism of the RCC reflect a different way of salvation than salvation by grace through faith. In fact here is what they represent:
1. That salvation is only through the RCC.
2. That salvation is only through the rites of the RCC.
3. That salvation is definitely a works based salvation.

Considering the above unbiblical statements, we must conclude that the RCC is not a Christian religion, and never has been.
 

D28guy

New Member
Darron,

You said...

"You do make these against Catholic persons routinely -- or defend the actions of those who do."

And then posted 2 links to two of my posts.


Darron, in your 1st post of mine that you quoted, anyone can see that when I said THIS...

"When did the evangelical/protestant church ever murder Catholics by the millions because they would not become protestants...as the Catholic Church is guilty of regarding protestants? Torturing them. Burning them at stakes."

...I was clearly...CLEARLY...speaking concerning the facts that actually happened during the middle ages. I was not attacking Godly Woman or being hateful towards her personally. But THOSE THINGS HAPPENED. The inquisitions happened. The torturings and burnings at the stake happened. The murdering happened. She said Catholics are more loving and tolerant, and I simply showed from the facts of history what the Catholic Church is capable of if they are in power and know that they can get away with it.

In your 2nd post of mine you linked to, when I said this...

"That is nonsense, GW. Thats a ridiculous claim that Catholic apologists and others try to dupe people with, in order to continue to justify the Goddess worship directed towards Mary in these groups."

...I was not trying to be inflammatory in the least. I was using the most accurate and descriptive term I could think of. The claim the Catholic Church makes...that if we do not give Mary the title "Mother of God" it will diminish Christs divinity....is...nonsense. Its not just something we disagree with, it is in fact nonsense. No matter what anyone believes about Mary, they will know Jesus is God because Gods scriptures declare that to be so. That claim of the Catholic Church is nonsense.

I simply called it what it is. That is not inflammatory, demeaning, or insulting, or an "attack". It is being accurate in conversation.

Mike
 

GodlyWoman

New Member
standingfirminChrist said:
They are not born again in the resurrection. If they were not born again before death, they won't be born again after death.

Being born again here on Earth is different than being resurrected at death and being born into a new life with God.

This is what is preached by Christians and Christian pastors:

Saved Believers will be resurrected from their graves, in His Time, and given Eternal Life through His Grace of Salvation.

standingfirminChrist said:
And if they are praying to other than God, they are not born again anyway. A born again person is obedient to Christ and prays to God, not Mary, Grandma, Grandpa, Uncle, Aunt, Cousin or any other dead person.

Some do not pray directly to Mary, the saints, and dead loved ones. They ask for intercession so that Mary, the saints, and dead loved ones will pray WITH THEM to God. It's no different when people at a Church ask their pastor, their congregation, their family, and their friends to pray with them.
 
GodlyWoman said:
Being born again here on Earth is different than being resurrected at death and being born into a new life with God.

This is what is preached by Christians and Christian pastors:

Saved Believers will be resurrected from their graves, in His Time, and given Eternal Life through His Grace of Salvation.



Some do not pray directly to Mary, the saints, and dead loved ones. They ask for intercession so that Mary, the saints, and dead loved ones will pray WITH THEM to God. It's no different when people at a Church ask their pastor, their congregation, their family, and their friends to pray with them.

If pastors are teaching we are given eternal life after we die, they are preaching another Gospel than that which Paul preached and therefore anathema. We receive eternal life from the moment we place our trust in Christ, not after we die.

Praying to Mary, Saints, or anyone else is in direct oppostion to the Lord Jesus Christ who said we are to pray to the Father.

The lies spewed by the Catholic faith are leading thousands upon thousands down the road to hell.

To those on that road of praying to Mary or anyone other than God, I plead...

Turn or Burn.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
GodlyWoman said:
Is prayer synonymous to worship with you people?
It most definitely is. The Bible defines it that way, and so do dictionaries. But the RCC would prefer to give it its own definition and bifurcate the definition into two separate definitions that the Bible knows nothing of. That way they can avoid saying that they are not praying (worshiping) graven images, when in fact they do.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
GodlyWoman said:
Do you believe in resurrection?

What do you believe happens to people who die if they're not born again and now living in the presence of God and are very much "alive"?
The resurrection has not happened yet. It is still future.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Have these events happened yet?
No. Then the resurrection has not yet taken place.
BTW, there are two resurrections: one for the just and one for the unjust. The one for the unjust will take place one thousand years after the one described in the verses above.
 
From the American Tract Society Dictionary
PRAYER
Is the offering of the emotions and desires of the soul to God, in the name and through the mediation of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. It is the communion of the heart with God through the aid of the Holy Spirit, and is to the Christian the very life of the soul. Without this filial spirit, no one can be a Christian, Job 21:15; Ps 10:4.
In all ages God has delighted in the prayers of his saints. From the promulgation of the law, the Hebrews did not intermit public worship daily in the tabernacle or the temple. It consisted in offering the evening and morning sacrifices, every day, accompanied with prayers by the priests and Levites in that holy edifice. Every day also the priests offered sacrifices, incense, offerings, and first fruits for individuals; they performed ceremonies for the redemption of the firstborn, or for purification from pollution; in a word, the people came thither from all parts to discharge their vows and to perform their devotions, not only on great and solemn days, but also on ordinary days; but nothing of this was performed without prayer, 1Ch 23:30; Ne 11:17; Lu 1:10. Compare also 1Ki 8:22, and the Psalms of David for temple worship.

Pious men were accustomed to pray thrice in the day, at fixed hours, Ps 55:7; Da 6:10. See HOURS. Social, family, and secret prayer were all habitual with Bible saints; as well as brief ejaculations in the midst of their ordinary business, Ne 2:4. No uniform posture in prayer is enjoined in the Bible; standing with the hands outspread, 1Ki 8.22, bowing the head, Ge 24:26, kneeling, Lu 22:41, and prostration on the ground, Mt 26:39, were all practiced. Prayer should be offered with submission to God's will, fervently, perseveringly, and with a confiding reliance on God in Christ; it should be accompanied by humble confession and hearty thanksgiving, and with supplications for all living men, as well as for our friends and those nearest to us. Habitual prayer to God is duty enjoined upon us by sound reason and by right affections; and he who lives without it thereby reveals the atheism of his heart. God requires all men thus to worship him, Eze 36:37; Mt 7:1-11; Php 4:6; 1Ti 2:1-3; Jas 1:5; and for neglecting this duty there can be no sufficient excuse. It is often said that prayer cannot alter the unchangeable purposes of God; but the great scheme of his providence embraces every prayer that shall be offered, as well as the answer it shall receive. It is objected that prayer cannot increase his knowledge of our wants, nor his readiness to supply them; and that in any case he will do what is for the best. But he deems it best to grant many blessings in answer to prayer, which otherwise he would withhold; "He will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear it, he will answer thee." The words of David will be those of every truly praying man: "This poor man cried, and the Lord heard him, and delivered him out of all his troubles," Ps 34:6.

False and formed religion makes a merit of its prayers, as though "much speaking" and "vain repetitions" could atone for heartlessness. Hypocrites also are wont to pray chiefly that they may have praise of men. These sins Christ reproves in Mt 6:5-15, and gives to his disciples the form of the Lord's prayer as a beautiful model. In Eph 6:18; 1Th 5:17; 1Ti 2:8, Paul directs that believers should pray in all places and at all times, lifting up pure hands towards heaven, and blessing God for all things, whether in eating, drinking, or what ever they do; and that every thing be done to the glory of God, 1Co 10:31. In a word, our Savior has recommended to us to pray without ceasing, Lu 18:1; 21:36.
 

D28guy

New Member
Godly Woman,

Following is a prayer given by Pope John Paul II in Vatican City in 1984. It is directed to Mary.

Do you consider this to be "just asking Mary to pray for us"?....

A Marian prayer of Pope John Paul II....


"O Mother of all men and women, and of all peoples, you who know all their sufferings and their hopes, you who have a mother's awareness of all the struggles between good and evil, between light and darkness, which afflict the modern world, accept the cry which we, moved by the Holy Spirit, address directly to your heart.

Embrace with the love of the Mother and Handmaid of the Lord, this human world of ours, which we entrust and consecrate to you, for we are full of concern for the earthly and eternal destiny of individuals and peoples.
In a special way we entrust and consecrate to you those individuals and nations which particularly need to be thus entrusted and consecrated.

"We have recourse to your protection, holy Mother of God! Despise not our petitions in our necessities."

Behold, as we stand before you, Mother of Christ, before your Immaculate Heart, we desire, together with the whole Church, to unite ourselves with the consecration which, for love of us, your Son made of himself to the Father: "For their sake," he said, "I consecrate myself that they also may be consecrated in the truth" (Jn 17:19).

We wish to unite ourselves with our Redeemer in this his consecration for the world and for the human race, which, in his divine heart, has the power to obtain pardon and to secure reparation.

The power of this consecration lasts for all time and embraces all individuals, peoples and nations. It overcomes every evil that the spirit of darkness is able to awaken, and has in fact awakened in our times, in the heart of man and in his history.
How deeply we feel the need for the consecration of humanity and the world--our modern world--in union with Christ himself! For the redeeming work of Christ must be shared in by the world through the Church. ...

Above all creatures, may you be blessed, you, the Handmaid of the Lord, who in the fullest way obeyed the divine call!

Hail to you, who are wholly united to the redeeming consecration of your Son!

Mother of the Church! Enlighten the People of God along the paths of faith, hope, and love! Enlighten especially the peoples whose consecration and entrustment by us you are awaiting. Help us to live in the truth of the consecration of Christ for the entire human family of the modern world.

In entrusting to you, O Mother, the world, all individuals and peoples, we also entrust to you this very consecration of the world, placing it in your motherly heart.

Immaculate Heart! Help us to conquer the menace of evil, which so easily takes root in the hearts of the people of today, and whose immeasurable effects already weigh down upon our modern world and seem to block the paths towards the future!

From famine and war, deliver us.

From nuclear war, from incalculable self-destruction, from every kind of war, deliver us.

From sins against the life of man from its very beginning, deliver us.

From hatred and from the demeaning of the dignity of the children of God, deliver us.

From every kind of injustice in the life of society, both national and international, deliver us.

From readiness to trample on the commandments of God, deliver us.

From attempts to stifle in human hearts the very truth of God, deliver us.

From the loss of awareness of good and evil, deliver us.

From sins against the Holy Spirit, deliver us, deliver us.

Accept, O Mother of Christ, this cry laden with the sufferings of all individual human beings, laden with the sufferings of whole societies.

Help us with the power of the Holy Spirit to conquer all sin: individual sin and the "sin of the world," sin in all its manifestations.

Let there be revealed, once more, in the history of the world the infinite saving power of the Redemption: the power of merciful Love! May it put a stop to evil! May it transform consciences! May your Immaculate Heart reveal for all the light of Hope!

Do you deny that this is idolatry?

Do you deny that attributes and abilities that only God posseses are here being given to Mary?

Mike

http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/prayers/jppray01.html#7
 
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Darron Steele

New Member
After quoting me:
GodlyWoman said:
Quite honestly, many Protestants seem to worship the Bible as sole authority than Catholics worship Mary. And let me tell you, Bible worship is even more scarier than Mary worship!...
Godly Woman: are you trying to alienate even courteous acquaintances? It looks like you are trying antagonize someone trying to help you stand up against sub-Christian treatment of Catholics.

Please do not mistake a desire to be fair to people as sympathy for their religious views. I have no use for Roman Catholic distinctive tenets.

I am not going to buy into what you said here. Just because I oppose venomous treatment of Catholics does not mean I am going to `rubber stamp' everything you say.

Sometimes, we need to refrain from airing opinions that do not need to be aired.

DHK said:
...
Considering the above unbiblical statements, we must conclude that the RCC is not a Christian religion, and never has been.
This is an accurate statement.

Catholics become Christians if they take the tangential Catholic teaching that we ought to serve Christ.

The Catholic system, however, is not Christian.

Catholics who get deep in the system before coming to Christ may not ever become Christians.

Catholics who become Catholic Christians become Christians in spite of it.

However, does that mean we treat Catholic Christians with less courtesy than most non-Christians? Do we treat Catholic non-Christians with less courtesy than we treat other non-Christians?

That is not what I am seeing out of DHK, but that it is what I am seeing in a handful of others here.
 
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