Catholic or Christian

[Rufus_1611]

There are many things that are said on this board that shock me and it sounds like there are those that are shocked by some of the things I say.

However, as Baptists or even Protestants it is shocking to me that folks believe Roman Catholicism to be a Christian faith, particularly when they are adherents to the formerly mentioned faiths.

Central to the Christian faith is what the Protestants have historically expressed as the solas. These solas are what distinguished them from the Roman Catholics and is what made them Protestants. An example of this includes Sola Scriptura (scripture alone)rather than catechisms or papal bulls. Another example would be, Sola Christus (Christ alone) rather than being saved through the Roman pontiff or or church. Finally, and perhaps a most essential difference is in sola gratia and sola fide (grace alone and faith alone). Protestants and Baptists believe in the blood atonement of Jesus Christ as being the key to salvation, for by grace are we saved through faith not of works (Eph 2:8). Roman Catholics believe that works are necessary for salvation.

If you are a Protestant or Baptist what cause would you have to believe that a works based religion is Christian and why is it so shocking when a brother says that a works based religion is not Christian? Perhaps you believe that Catholicism is a grace based religion, then please tell me how the sacraments are not required for salvation according to the church? Finally, if you are Protestant or Baptist and think that Catholicism is Christian, then what is it that keeps you from being Catholic?

 

[Claudia_T]

I personally have noticed on this board that very many Christians confuse a works based religion with religion that says you do good works out of love for God and that if you dont then you prove you have not any genuine faith.

Catholics, on the other hand, do good works to gain merit, I believe.

On the other hand I also believe that Catholics teach that it doesnt really matter what you do... just sprinkle a little "Holy Water" on you and everything is ok... no real regeneration of the heart. A formal Religion. Kind of like the Pharisees who did all their rituals...

and of course the Pharisees did good works to gain merit. But the Catholics at least do believe Jesus to be the Son of God. So in that respect, they arent like the Pharisees.


I also believe that Catholics, many of them will be saved because they are living up to the light that they have and just dont know any better. But would I want to become a Catholic? NO! Because of many different reasons, the number one reason being that I think their entire system is based upon the pagan Religion of ancient Babylon.

 

[JonC]

I don’t think that the Catholic religion is Christian based on its doctrine. However, I do know some Catholics who are Christian. (But most of these probably wouldn’t be viewed as good Catholics).

A friend of mine attended our church. The only exception he took to our belief is that he believes the wine and bread in Communion actually turns to blood and flesh. This was what kept him in the Catholic church.

I can question the Catholic faith, but I’d not question whether its members are Christian or not.

 

[Claudia_T]

I have to add that I view things as that Jesus told the story of the Good Samaritan ... the guy had asked what do I have to do to have eternal life... and Jesus told the Samaritan story..

The Samaritan was the one who actually stopped to help his wounded neighbor but those who had "the correct theology" didnt bother... they just left him there to die.

Jesus said it was the Samaritan who was doing God's will.

and so I feel sorry for the Catholics in a way because I believe many of them may be actually more sincere in their beliefs and in doing what they should ... moreso than some Protestants.

I just hate the idea of judging the person themselves... many of them may be nearer to the kingdom than we are.

 

[DQuixote]

Rufus_1611, I appreciate your posts very much. You are correct in your observations. Indeed, it was Catholics who carried out the Crusades, not Christians. I often see Catholicism described "Judaism in New Robes," and I certainly agree. The Talmud, the "instruction" for Judaism, has been replaced by Catholic tradition. One must look with care at the similarities, however, between Catholicism and the charismatic movement. Charismatics look for signs and wonders, for actual visitations by God (how many report discussing things with Jesus, in person!?!), while Catholics crawl up a mountain on their knees to see a "visitation" by Mary, or her image on a restroom door, or have themselves nailed to a cross. In those areas Catholicism and the charismatic movement are not too far from holding hands! It will only get worse as the cry for an ecumenical, neutral God / church grows stronger. May I suggest that you read items posted in the politics section of the BB? Persons who identify themselves as Christian there endorse secularism on a regular basis! God's blessings as you continue your study in his word.

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

Finally, if you are Protestant or Baptist and think that Catholicism is Christian, then what is it that keeps you from being Catholic?

There are numerous reasons, doctrinal, why I am not a Catholic. But my, or your, interpretation of doctrine is not the same as anyone else on this board, much less in all the Christian churches. The church I belong to comes closest to what I believe, Catholics do not.

That said, only God will truly judge whether or not any person's profession of faith in Jesus Christ as their savior is valid -- and He will do so. Catholics so profess, and I will not judge their salvation any more than I will yours or stay silent when mine is judged.

 

[SouthernBoy]

Claudia_T,

Catholics, on the other hand, do good works to gain merit, I believe.

This is not what the Catholic Church teaches and believes. However, many non-Catholics have a tendancy to believe this and many other myths. So, I feel sorry for you that you reject something which is based on a misunderstanding.

The Catholic Church teaches what the apostles taught and what the Bible teaches. That is the Church teaches that we are saved by GRACE ALONE, but not by faith alone.

To explain further, we do not "earn" our salvation through good works (Eph. 2:8-9 and Romans 9:16), but our faith in Christ put us in a special grace filled relationship with God so that our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life (Romans 2:7 and Gal. 6:8-9).

When in doubt you can always visit the official site to see what they believe.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

Indeed, it was Catholics who carried out the Crusades, not Christians.

What was wrong with the Crusades? What if the USA was invaded by Iran tomorrow would you not feel justified in defending yourself? Do you not know that the Holy Land was once Christian until it was conquered by the Muslims? The Crusades (war is always brutal) were a self defense action. Today you could compare it to the first Gulf War.

I hope this helps!

 

[El_Guero]

The GNT teaches us that we are saved by Grace and not of ourselves. As non-Catholics most of us believe that Grace is imparted by faith. The Catholic Church teaches that Grace is imparted through the sacraments.

I do not like what they believe . . . but, ironically some Catholics seem to have faith . . . I pray that their faith is truly in Jesus Christ.

 

[Dustin]

The Reformation has FIVE Solas.

Sola Gratia (Grace Alone)
Sola Fide (Faith Alone)
Solus Christus (Christ Alone)
Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone)
Soli Deo Gloria (God's Glory Alone)


I think there are some Christians in the Roman Catholic church, but the church overall is actually ANTI-Christian. The great majority of thier doctrine is nowhere in the Bible, or is a twisted version of Scripture. Every mass is a blasphemy of Jesus Christ, since they claim He is STILL atoning for sin. They venerate Mary, and the Apostles, and pray to them like they were gods. The pope, sits upon his throne as God's emmissary on earth, denying Christ's Headship of the Church. This is what the Reformers fought against and some died for it.

It is NOT a Christian church, when the pope kisses a muslim holy book and says "I recieve the word of god." , that should be a CLEAR sign that it isn't. It has no marks of a Christian church, their gospel is a false one. The reason the Protestants broke away was because the Roman Catholic Church was not just in doctrinal error, but because it was totally apostate. Martin Luther, early on, didn't even want to break off from the RCC, until he realized how totally and finally apostate it was.

Dustin

 

[Melanie]

I have always found this discussion incredibly offensive. The Head of the RCC is Jesus Christ, the Bible is part and parcel of the Faith .

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

I have always found this discussion incredibly offensive. The Head of the RCC is Jesus Christ, the Bible is part and parcel of the Faith .

Trust me, right now this is among many offensive discussions on the board. I think another sabbatical from it is in order.

 

[Claudia_T]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Briony-Gloriana
I have always found this discussion incredibly offensive. The Head of the RCC is Jesus Christ, the Bible is part and parcel of the Faith .

Trust me, right now this is among many offensive discussions on the board. I think another sabbatical from it is in order.

Well since this IS the section of the Forum about Christian Debate- Other Christian Denominations, One would have to EXPECT that debating about different Christian Denominations would occur.

It isnt any more fun for me than it is for you when they have a thread going about my Church, which is the Seventh Day Adventist Church ... which they do right now.

So why come here if you arent going to expect this? Do you really expect that the Catholic Church is exempt from discussion?

I and others have to put up with my Church being called a Cult on a regular basis, so why whine about it when they do the same to your Church?

Since this IS the section of the Forum about Christian Debate- Other Christian Denominations, dont you think its more than a little silly to become offended that they would actually **gasp** discuss your denomination? especially since really there are Protestants then there are Roman Catholics... who are at opposite ends of the spectrum (at least they used to be, but then again, thats another topic for discussion). Really, what would you expect a bunch of Protestants to do anyway? They are supposed to be "Protest-ants" who are "Protesting" the errors of the Roman Catholic Church.

Im not trying to be mean, just trying to get you to think reasonably.

I mean, honestly, playing the "martyr" here isnt the way to go, at least I dont think that it is. Do you expect to be given special treatment over everyone else?


Claudia

 

[BobRyan]

There are many things that are said on this board that shock me and it sounds like there are those that are shocked by some of the things I say.

However, as Baptists or even Protestants it is shocking to me that folks believe Roman Catholicism to be a Christian faith, particularly when they are adherents to the formerly mentioned faiths.

I used to think that this kind of statement was a snobbish thing being said by some Christian denomantions against the Catholic denominations.

But then I heard Catholics saying the same thing "Christian or Catholic" and I had to think about it for a while. Some of them actually declare themselves to be in opposition to the Christian denominations.

having said that - I consider Catholics to be Christian - but I find it incredible that some of THEM do not!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Dustin]

I have always found this discussion incredibly offensive. The Head of the RCC is Jesus Christ, the Bible is part and parcel of the Faith .

I thought the pope claimed to be head of Christendom on earth. You are catholic right? Are there some catholics that are not Roman Catholics? I know of the Eastern Orthodox church, they deny Rome's authority but are there any others?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Let's remember that the idea that "Catholics are Christians" is a relatively new idea. For five hundred years since the Reformation, and for more than a thousand before that, the distinction between Catholicism and Christianity was recognized by both sides. Now, there is a move by some on both sides to pretend like the distinctions don't exist.

Whichever is right, Catholicism and Christianity, they are not both right; nor can they be. They teach different, mutually exclusive things.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The Catholic Church teaches what the apostles taught and what the Bible teaches. That is the Church teaches that we are saved by GRACE ALONE, but not by faith alone.

To explain further, we do not "earn" our salvation through good works (Eph. 2:8-9 and Romans 9:16), but our faith in Christ put us in a special grace filled relationship with God so that our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life (Romans 2:7 and Gal. 6:8-9).

Herein lies one of the major differences. Are we saved by Christ's work alone, or by our merit through obedience and the sacraments.

Notice how the poster here not so subtly claims the Bible and apostles on his side, but never actually demonstrates that. The Bible does teach a "grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone" salvation. Even a surface study of the NT will show this to be true.

His statement that we do not "earn" our salvation through good works [but] ... our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life is self contradictory. To reward obedience and love with eternal life is to give salvation earned by works. The fact that it is "combined with faith" is irrelevant.

The Catholic church has historically condemned the "grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone" doctrine. They have never retreated from that. They teach salvation through the sacraments.

I do agree with the poster that in order to determine what the Catholic church believes, you simply need to go to their writings and their doctrine. Read it carefully because things are worded trickily sometimes, but it is right there.

The Head of the RCC is Jesus Christ, the Bible is part and parcel of the Faith

Herein lies another difference. In Christianity, the Bible is not "part and parcel of the Faith;" it is the foundation of it (1 Tim 3:14-16). It is dubious at best to say that the head of the Roman church is Jesus Christ, being as that the roman church has consistently been plagued with false doctrine from her popes, conflicts between popes, contradictions of popes, changes in doctrine and the like. It is hard to read the Bible and imagine that Christ envisioned a church like the Roman church.

Is this discussion offensive? Likely ... The gospel of the cross is offensive, as Paul said. We should not allow our presentation and demeanor to be offensive. But for those who do not accept the gospel as the wisdom of God, the message they hear will offend them.

Are Catholics saved? Some of them are, no doubt. But it is not because of the Roman doctrine; it is in spite of it.

 

[El_Guero]

I do not like Catholicism, but they can be less evil than islam, mormonism or any of the other evils that we really should be concerned with.

Historically, there have been Catholics that were Christian . . . Luther and Calvin come to mind.

So, do we consider Calvin to have been a Christian or a Catholic?

Let's remember that the idea that "Catholics are Christians" is a relatively new idea. For five hundred years since the Reformation, and for more than a thousand before that, the distinction between Catholicism and Christianity was recognized by both sides. Now, there is a move by some on both sides to pretend like the distinctions don't exist.

Whichever is right, Catholicism and Christianity, they are not both right; nor can they be. They teach different, mutually exclusive things.

 

[El_Guero]

Larry

This post I think must better reflect you position. I notice that you are responding to a negative position.

Good post!

God bless

Wayne

Herein lies one of the major differences. Are we saved by Christ's work alone, or by our merit through obedience and the sacraments.

Notice how the poster here not so subtly claims the Bible and apostles on his side, but never actually demonstrates that. The Bible does teach a "grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone" salvation. Even a surface study of the NT will show this to be true.

His statement that we do not "earn" our salvation through good works [but] ... our obedience and love, combined with our faith, will be rewarded with eternal life is self contradictory. To reward obedience and love with eternal life is to give salvation earned by works. The fact that it is "combined with faith" is irrelevant.

The Catholic church has historically condemned the "grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone" doctrine. They have never retreated from that. They teach salvation through the sacraments.

I do agree with the poster that in order to determine what the Catholic church believes, you simply need to go to their writings and their doctrine. Read it carefully because things are worded trickily sometimes, but it is right there.

Herein lies another difference. In Christianity, the Bible is not "part and parcel of the Faith;" it is the foundation of it (1 Tim 3:14-16). It is dubious at best to say that the head of the Roman church is Jesus Christ, being as that the roman church has consistently been plagued with false doctrine from her popes, conflicts between popes, contradictions of popes, changes in doctrine and the like. It is hard to read the Bible and imagine that Christ envisioned a church like the Roman church.

Is this discussion offensive? Likely ... The gospel of the cross is offensive, as Paul said. We should not allow our presentation and demeanor to be offensive. But for those who do not accept the gospel as the wisdom of God, the message they hear will offend them.

Are Catholics saved? Some of them are, no doubt. But it is not because of the Roman doctrine; it is in spite of it.

 

[webdog]

I do not like Catholicism, but they can be less evil than islam, mormonism or any of the other evils that we really should be concerned with.

If you are talking about the system as a whole, I disagree. If anything it can be more evil and dangerous than outright satan worship, as it gives a false hope and comfort. I believe one day the "whore" of Babylon will consist of all of the above that you mentioned.

 

[webdog]

I have always found this discussion incredibly offensive. The Head of the RCC is Jesus Christ, the Bible is part and parcel of the Faith .

If Christ is the head of the RCC, why is the Pope the "vicar of Christ" (substitute of Christ)? It seems Emperor Palpatine is the true head of the RCC.