Catholicism is not compatible with Christianity

[DHK]

Christianity is not defined by our denominations. If you claim to have been saved then you are wrong. The Bible says that we are all sinners and that is why we must ask God for forgiveness, in our daily prayers. Does the bible talk about the best denominations?

The Bible teaches doctrine. The Bible defines who Christ is. If Christ is not the Christ of the Bible, for example, then He is not Christ at all. If salvation is not what the Bible teaches then it is not salvation at all.
Paul warned:
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
--If one is preaching the wrong gospel, Paul says "let him be accursed." Why? He is directing people to hell and not to heaven.

I know for sure if I were to die tonight that I would go to heaven. I know that beyond any shadow of a doubt. And no, I am not wrong. I know because I don't have a religion; I don't have a denomination, etc. but rather I have a relationship with Christ. He gave me eternal life and forgiveness of sins more than 40 years ago when I trusted him. At that time all my sins were forgiven: past, present and future.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
--I have the Son; ergo I have life and life eternal.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
--I know I have eternal life.
I am truly sorry for those who have not this assurance.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Christianity is not defined by our denominations.

Actually it is defined by our denominations.

Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be Christian and follow heterodox teachings and believe they are assisting salvation by works. They do not believe in the deity of Christ and so He is on a much lower plain than what Scriptures reveal.

I cannot say this is vastly different than Catholicism, and is the same thing in principle, in many ways the same. RC has placed Mary as Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix, yet Jesus need not her assistance in any fashion, yet this is taught and believed in this system.

Traditions (man made precepts, Col. 2:21) are placed above the Word (Representative of Christ; John 1:1ff) so in that Christ is yet again supplanted by her teachings.

There is also the polytheistic adoption into RCC from formerly pagan religions, popularized into the many Saints for many differing situations. These are sought, prayed to, believed in, made into images, worshiped. Christ is supplanted by this as well.

Mormons also claim being Christian. This sect is not Christian at all.

Denominations are known by what they teach and the dividing point is how they treat Christ and where they place Him. Is He Lord above all, the only Redeemer, exalted above all else, or are their helps added, other mediators, erroneous doctrines that mitigate His office? Is He subservient to systems, traditions, Mary or any other? No, frankly He is not worshiped above all in any of these aforementioned three systems.

[qoute]If you claim to have been saved then you are wrong. [/quote]

I'm saved. I'm being saved. Saved is literally 'rescued from impending danger' which Christ alone accomplished and in which Person alone we who are saved rest once and for all time. Note 1 Cor. 15:2, Romans 10:13; Ephesians 2:8-10; Colossians1:21ff, Ephesians 1; Acts 4:12 and there are many more.

The Bible says that we are all sinners and that is why we must ask God for forgiveness, in our daily prayers.

Fellowship not 'maintenance of salvation', it is the Christian walk; 1 John 1:8ff. Jesus finished that, eternal salvation, Himself by one offering for all time; Hebrews 10:14; John 10:27ff. He needs no assistance. To believe we are assisting Him is to not rest fully on His work alone and is another gospel; Galatians in its entirety and especially Gal. 1:8-10.

Does the bible talk about the best denominations?

Sometimes one has to 'read between the lines' in order that the same can determine that which is false, and cling to that which is true; Hebrews 5:11-14; 1 John 4:1; 2 John.

 

[evangelist6589]

Actually it is defined by our denominations.

Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be Christian and follow heterodox teachings and believe they are assisting salvation by works. They do not believe in the deity of Christ and so He is on a much lower plain than what Scriptures reveal.

I cannot say this is vastly different than Catholicism, and is the same thing in principle, in many ways the same. RC has placed Mary as Co-Redemptrix and Co-Mediatrix, yet Jesus need not her assistance in any fashion, yet this is taught and believed in this system.

Traditions (man made precepts, Col. 2:21) are placed above the Word (Representative of Christ; John 1:1ff) so in that Christ is yet again supplanted by her teachings.

There is also the polytheistic adoption into RCC from formerly pagan religions, popularized into the many Saints for many differing situations. These are sought, prayed to, believed in, made into images, worshiped. Christ is supplanted by this as well.

Mormons also claim being Christian. This sect is not Christian at all.

Denominations are known by what they teach and the dividing point is how they treat Christ and where they place Him. Is He Lord above all, the only Redeemer, exalted above all else, or are their helps added, other mediators, erroneous doctrines that mitigate His office? Is He subservient to systems, traditions, Mary or any other? No, frankly He is not worshiped above all in any of these aforementioned three systems.

[qoute]If you claim to have been saved then you are wrong.

I'm saved. I'm being saved. Saved is literally 'rescued from impending danger' which Christ alone accomplished and in which Person alone we who are saved rest once and for all time. Note 1 Cor. 15:2, Romans 10:13; Ephesians 2:8-10; Colossians1:21ff, Ephesians 1; Acts 4:12 and there are many more.



Fellowship not 'maintenance of salvation', it is the Christian walk; 1 John 1:8ff. Jesus finished that, eternal salvation, Himself by one offering for all time; Hebrews 10:14; John 10:27ff. He needs no assistance. To believe we are assisting Him is to not rest fully on His work alone and is another gospel; Galatians in its entirety and especially Gal. 1:8-10.



Sometimes one has to 'read between the lines' in order that the same can determine that which is false, and cling to that which is true; Hebrews 5:11-14; 1 John 4:1; 2 John.[/QUOTE]

Well said. I do not agree about this forum being placed in the "other Christian denominations" board as Catholicism is definitely not a "Christian denomination."

 

[JonC]

Faith + Works but works are a vital part of the equation in their theology.

If any one saith, that thy faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him by anathema" (From the Council of Trent, Canons on Justification, Canon 9).

If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema" (Canon 14).

Do Catholics believe justification a one time event or an ongoing process?

The reason I ask is that I am wondering how exactly you view Catholic doctrine as separating from Christian doctrine. I agree with you that it does, but I am not sure why you chose this doctrine upon which to build your argument.

Their argument would of course be James 2:24 - You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And they would argue that Justification is a process, we are saved, being saved and will be saved. And then the argument would turn to Protestant's who believe that faith produces works, or with other Protestant's who belief that works come alongside faith in justification.

So I agree that Catholic belief departs from Christian belief, but for different reasons. I do believe that Catholics can be saved, but perhaps despite their Catholic doctrine.

 

[Internet Theologian]

I have no idea how this fits into "Baptist Theology and Bible Study."

Perhaps because the author of this thread desired to discuss this with Baptists only?

Since it is a topic on Catholics must it be forced into all other denominations so they can all give input if the desires of the author were to discuss this with those of like faith?

Baptists have all along spoken of these non-Baptist topics in Baptist Forums out of their desire to do so. They also reserved the privilege, if so desired, to place it in 'all other denominations' forums at will.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Well said. I do not agree about this forum being placed in the "other Christian denominations" board as Catholicism is definitely not a "Christian denomination."

Agreed about this being placed here since your desire was to speak of this with fellow Baptists.

 

[evangelist6589]

Do Catholics believe justification a one time event or an ongoing process?

The reason I ask is that I am wondering how exactly you view Catholic doctrine as separating from Christian doctrine. I agree with you that it does, but I am not sure why you chose this doctrine upon which to build your argument.

Their argument would of course be James 2:24 - You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And they would argue that Justification is a process, we are saved, being saved and will be saved. And then the argument would turn to Protestant's who believe that faith produces works, or with other Protestant's who belief that works come alongside faith in justification.

So I agree that Catholic belief departs from Christian belief, but for different reasons. I do believe that Catholics can be saved, but perhaps despite their Catholic doctrine.

There are many condemning components of Catholic doctrine. Their view on Justification in my opinion to be the worst. I have not said that the other components of Catholic theology are not condemning because they are.

 

[evangelist6589]

Do Catholics believe justification a one time event or an ongoing process?

The reason I ask is that I am wondering how exactly you view Catholic doctrine as separating from Christian doctrine. I agree with you that it does, but I am not sure why you chose this doctrine upon which to build your argument.

Their argument would of course be James 2:24 - You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And they would argue that Justification is a process, we are saved, being saved and will be saved. And then the argument would turn to Protestant's who believe that faith produces works, or with other Protestant's who belief that works come alongside faith in justification.

So I agree that Catholic belief departs from Christian belief, but for different reasons. I do believe that Catholics can be saved, but perhaps despite their Catholic doctrine.

Catholics believe that Justification is a ongoing process a like I said they believe in Faith + Works.

 

[JonC]

There are many condemning components of Catholic doctrine. Their view on Justification in my opinion to be the worst. I have not said that the other components of Catholic theology are not condemning because they are.

I understand. That is the same argument that some present against Lordship Salvation and others present against free-will salvation. Justification can be a sensitive topic.

I think that the Roman Catholic Church was born apostate so we may disagree on whether or not this doctrine is the worst. In fact, I am not as distraught about this doctrine as I am their ecclesiology. That said, even within Catholic walls God saved.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Catholics believe that Justification is a ongoing process a like I said they believe in Faith + Works.

Right. Justification is rendered once upon the elect of God and is eternally determined.

Sanctification is an ongoing process.

Believing that a person can add anything to justification, that it is dependent upon self to maintain or make continuation thereof, to depend upon the work of the unbiblical office of priest (via sacerdotalism), or any such other, at any point in time is a damnable doctrine and denies the finished work and sufficiency of Christ.

 

[JonC]

Right. Justification is rendered once upon the elect of God and is eternally determined.

Sanctification is an ongoing process.

Believing that a person can add anything to justification, that it is dependent upon self to maintain or make continuation thereof, to depend upon the work of the unbiblical office of priest (via sacerdotalism), or any such other, at any point in time is a damnable doctrine and denies the finished work and sufficiency of Christ.

Regarding James 2:24, (we are justified by works and not by faith alone), is this the same context or definition of "justification" that you are using?

 

[DHK]

The Catholics have never rescinded the anathemas that were proclaimed at the Council of Trent.
If any here believe in sola fide, that a man is justified by faith alone, he comes under the wrath of the RCC. To them this is a heretical doctrine. Theirs is a false gospel, a gospel of works. This nullifies grace and faith.
The Bible clearly teaches that salvation is by grace through faith. That faith is by faith and faith alone. This the Catholic's deny.
The Bible clearly teaches that we are justified by faith and therefore have peace with God.
That faith is faith alone. This the Catholics deny.

 

[jeremy81]

Not to interrupt your heated and very interesting discussion, but what are your thoughts on this?

My friend A, has this Catholic friend, B. Friend A strongly believes that despite B's affiliation with the Catholic Church, B is actually Christian in the real sense and will be saved.

A observes in B a deep personal relationship with Christ. Curiously, while Mary is indeed a big personality in the Catholic teaching, B just doesn't have the inkling to pray to her and use Mary as a go-between her and Jesus. Also, she doesn't do what fellow Catholics do (such as pray to Catholic Saints). My friend says that she sees in B someone who truly walks in the Spirit. When asked, why she doesn't do what most Catholics do, B just shrugged the question saying that she really doesn't know, but that what's important to her is her devotion to Christ, and Christ alone.

Anyway, my friend went on saying that no matter which denomination one belongs to, when one reads the Bible as her friend does religiously, and follows the teachings of Jesus, God will truly have a way of touching the person's heart. So, regardless of her friend's membership with the RCC, the truth of God's word still led her to the right path. (Except the part on separating from RCC).

Anyway, just sharing and wondering also.

 

[JonC]

I suppose we can remember that those Reformers were Catholics to start. They did, however, eventually leave.

 

[DHK]

Not to interrupt your heated and very interesting discussion, but what are your thoughts on this?

My friend A, has this Catholic friend, B. Friend A strongly believes that despite B's affiliation with the Catholic Church, B is actually Christian in the real sense and will be saved.

A observes in B a deep personal relationship with Christ. Curiously, while Mary is indeed a big personality in the Catholic teaching, B just doesn't have the inkling to pray to her and use Mary as a go-between her and Jesus. Also, she doesn't do what fellow Catholics do (such as pray to Catholic Saints). My friend says that she sees in B someone who truly walks in the Spirit. When asked, why she doesn't do what most Catholics do, B just shrugged the question saying that she really doesn't know, but that what's important to her is her devotion to Christ, and Christ alone.

Anyway, my friend went on saying that no matter which denomination one belongs to, when one reads the Bible as her friend does religiously, and follows the teachings of Jesus, God will truly have a way of touching the person's heart. So, regardless of her friend's membership with the RCC, the truth of God's word still led her to the right path. (Except the part on separating from RCC).

Anyway, just sharing and wondering also.

You said:
"B is actually Christian in the real sense and will be saved".
Either she is saved or not. If not, she is not a "Christian in the real sense."

What does A observe that indicates "a real relationship with Christ." That is personal and between God and the other person. Devotion, sincerity, and religion are all nice to have but they are outward appearances. God judges the heart. Man can only see what is on the outside.
A person can be sincere, but sincerely wrong.

Denomination or for lack of a better word, "affiliation" is important. There is nothing to be gained in the RCC, but false teaching. A true believer will recognize this. After I was saved I stayed in the Catholic Church for a short period of time, but simply by reading the Bible I was convicted that the teachings of the RCC and the Bible did not harmonize. I wasn't going to any church at that time. I wasn't being influenced by the teachings of another. But I knew I had to make a break with the Catholic Church. And I did.

How can two walk together lest they be agreed.

 

[JonC]

Here's the thing....it is not our faith that saves, it is the Object and Author of our that faith. We can have all the faith in the world and perish...Mormons do. Of course we can be saved and still hold to error on some issues (at least half of us do...we are pretty much a divided bunch on most issues). It is, however, clear that Catholic doctrine is heresy. And most RCC members that I know do not look to Christ for salvation....they look to the Catholic Church as, BTW, the RCC teaches them to do. That's why I believe that the greatest heresy of the RCC is not necessarily their view of Justification (essentially free-will baptists hold a similar view of Justification....they just don't know it). Their greatest heresy is replacing Christ with the "Church," and this has been the "birth mark" of the RCC.

 

[DHK]

Here's the thing....it is not our faith that saves, it is the Object and Author of our that faith. We can have all the faith in the world and perish...Mormons do. Of course we can be saved and still hold to error on some issues (at least half of us do...we are pretty much a divided bunch on most issues). It is, however, clear that Catholic doctrine is heresy. And most RCC members that I know do not look to Christ for salvation....they look to the Catholic Church as, BTW, the RCC teaches them to do. That's why I believe that the greatest heresy of the RCC is not necessarily their view of Justification (essentially free-will baptists hold a similar view of Justification....they just don't know it). Their greatest heresy is replacing Christ with the "Church," and this has been the "birth mark" of the RCC.

That is true. We all have faith. It is the object of our faith that is important. I have been teaching that for years. It is good to hear it from someone else. If the object of one's faith is not Christ and his saving work on the cross there is no salvation. I certainly agree with you.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Faith is evidence of conversion, a gift from God and not the cause of our justification whatsoever.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Anyway, my friend went on saying that no matter which denomination one belongs to, when one reads the Bible as her friend does religiously, and follows the teachings of Jesus, God will truly have a way of touching the person's heart. So, regardless of her friend's membership with the RCC, the truth of God's word still led her to the right path. (Except the part on separating from RCC).

Anyway, just sharing and wondering also.

The red above (mine) is salvation by works and is purely subjective.

 

[DHK]

Faith is evidence of conversion, a gift from God and not the cause of our justification whatsoever.

There is no scripture that validates the above. Nowhere does scripture teach that faith is a gift to the unregenerate. This is purely a Calvinistic philosophy with no Scriptural backing whatsoever. If it had any support they would have to provide it, but none can be given.