Cessationism or Continuationism

[The Biblicist]

In the KJV, 1 Cor 12:31 is also a rare instance where we are encouraged to "covet" something, although most other translations say "earnestly desire". .

That can be translated either as "you are earnestly desiring" or "earnestly desire". There is no question they already were earnestly desiring spiritual gifts but Paul had just told them that it is not a matter of their desire but a matter of sovereign bestowal by the Spirit (vv. 7-11). That such gifts were not all equally available for every child of God (vv. 29-30) so why in the world would he command them to do exactly what he told them was pure vainity? No, he told them to earnestly desire something better than spiritual gifts - love? Why? Because love INCLUDED THESE LIMITATIONS and provide the proper motivation and guidelines for their use for those who were so gifted. Remember, he restricted the use of tongues in the assembly to no more than three at most and then NONE if no interpreter. The problem is that the Corinthians made tongues the supreme gift just as do modern day Pentecostals but Paul placed it LAST in his order (12:28).

 

[Lodic]

Both Christ and Paul predicted a latter day apostolic like signs and wonders movement (Mt. 24:24-25; 2 Thes.2:9) where they used the very same Greek terms that characterized apostolic signs and wonders. That is why Jesus said it would be so DECEPTIVE.

I believe the were both speaking of their present day and the times coming up to AD 70. That is not to dismiss the false signs that we see today, though. I just don't believe we are in the "last days". But, I digress. That's another topic for another time.

1. Miracles are bestowed by God to CONFIRM the TRUTH of His servants message - apostate miracle workers teach false doctrine with regard to salvation, the nature of God, the person of Christ and other essential truths.
2. Apostolic miralce workers with signs and wonders will match the Biblical characterization, design and purpose and orderly use of such whereas apostate will not.
3. Their prophets will be able to pass all seven Biblical tests of a true prophet of God but the apostate signs and wonders prophets will always fail one or more these tests.

I couldn't agree more with these points.

4. Apostolic gifts were imparted by apostles and apostles ceased in the first century as Paul said he was the "last" of all the Apostles. He used the word "eschatos" which means last with none to follow as in "last" Adam with no Adam's to follow and "last" trump with no trumps to follow.

I couldn't disagree more. I don't believe the Apostles were the only ones to have the gifts of the Spirit, nor that they ceased with them.

The "first wave" and "second wave" and "early" and "latter rain" Pentecost/charismatic movements fail all three above. Every MAJOR well known prophet that has ever existed among them failed one or more of the Biblical tests of a prophet. The movement and prophetic leadership are characterized by major false doctrines. None of them abide by the characterizations, design, purpose and orderly use of Biblical gifts.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of truth to this statement. However, I won't go so far to say that ALL who teach the modern day use of the gifts of the Spirit are false prophets, as I believe this is a true doctrine.

 

[Lodic]

That can be translated either as "you are earnestly desiring" or "earnestly desire". There is no question they already were earnestly desiring spiritual gifts but Paul had just told them that it is not a matter of their desire but a matter of sovereign bestowal by the Spirit (vv. 7-11). That such gifts were not all equally available for every child of God (vv. 29-30) so why in the world would he command them to do exactly what he told them was pure vainity? No, he told them to earnestly desire something better than spiritual gifts - love? Why? Because love INCLUDED THESE LIMITATIONS and provide the proper motivation and guidelines for their use for those who were so gifted. Remember, he restricted the use of tongues in the assembly to no more than three at most and then NONE if no interpreter. The problem is that the Corinthians made tongues the supreme gift just as do modern day Pentecostals but Paul placed it LAST in his order (12:28).

Paul never said that the gifts were not equally available for every child of God. He pointed out that everyone has different gifts.

You make a good point in the restricted use of tongues in the assembly. The same problem Paul was concerned about is present in many Pentecostal / Charismatic churches. That does not negate the argument that all of the gifts are to be used today.

 

[Lodic]

It's ALL phony....be careful.

Thanks, Dave. I really do appreciate your concern. Not much chance of encountering modern day gifts of the Spirit in the future. Although we do believe in the modern day use of these gifts, we've been attending a very traditional Southern Baptist church for several years. For us, the love and fellowship are more important than witnessing the gifts "in action", especially when we've also seen it faked so often.

 

[The Biblicist]

Paul never said that the gifts were not equally available for every child of God. He pointed out that everyone has different gifts.

"dividing to every man severally as he will." not as you will
"are all apostles....." The implication is no! However, the actual Greek text says "no" (Gr.me)
So, gives are not equally available to everyone just because they would like to seek them.


Do you believe the apostolic office is for today? Do you believe the prophetic office is for today? What new revelation do we need that is lacking in scripture?

 

[Lodic]

"dividing to every man severally as he will." not as you will

I would think that is a given. We don't receive the gifts because we want them, but when the Father gives them.

"are all apostles....." The implication is no! However, the actual Greek text says "no" (Gr.me)

Agreed.

Do you believe the apostolic office is for today? Do you believe the prophetic office is for today? What new revelation do we need that is lacking in scripture?

Although some churches have those offices, I don't think either of those offices are for the church as a whole today. I believe the gifts of the Spirit come to those to whom God desires today. From what I've witnessed, it's always been to edify either an individual, a family, or a local church.

 

[The Biblicist]

I would think that is a given. We don't receive the gifts because we want them, but when the Father gives them.

You are missing the point! He does not make them available equally to all saints whether they want them or not! The WHOLE Pentecostal movent from 1905 to 2000 demands that tongues is for every Christian and it is the singular evidence of the baptism in the Spirit, which without, they demand you cannot be "spiritual."

 

[Lodic]

You are missing the point! He does not make them available equally to all saints whether they want them or not! The WHOLE Pentecostal movent from 1905 to 2000 demands that tongues is for every Christian and it is the singular evidence of the baptism in the Spirit, which without, they demand you cannot be "spiritual."

If we are discussing the modern Pentecostal movement that demands tongues, I completely agree.
On the other hand, if we are discussing whether the gifts of the Spirit are still for today, I disagree with you. I don't believe the Bible explicitly teaches that the gifts ever ended. God never forces anyone to have His good gifts, but He does make these gifts available to all the saints to whom He chooses to impart them.

 

[The Biblicist]

If we are discussing the modern Pentecostal movement that demands tongues, I completely agree.

There is no tongue speaking today that is not rooted in the first wave movement - NONE! The modern Pentecostal movement is the SOURCE and DEFENSE behind all tongue in America speaking since 1905. You are attempting to make a 1900 year gap between the New Testament and today and that itself is proof that tongue speaking ceased in the first century.

What you are attempting to do is justify a Biblical based tongue speaking WHICH HAS NO EXISTENCE HISTORICALLY APART FROM THE MODERN DAY TONGUE MOVEMENT.

 

[Lodic]

There is no tongue speaking today that is not rooted in the first wave movement - NONE! The modern Pentecostal movement is the SOURCE and DEFENSE behind all tongue in America speaking since 1905. You are attempting to make a 1900 year gap between the New Testament and today and that itself is proof that tongue speaking ceased in the first century.

What you are attempting to do is justify a Biblical based tongue speaking WHICH HAS NO EXISTENCE HISTORICALLY APART FROM THE MODERN DAY TONGUE MOVEMENT.

I must respectfully disagree, Brother. No doubt, the modern Pentecostal movement has corrupted the teaching, but the true roots go back to the Bible. I've been in services where it was done wrongly, and in services where they've followed the pattern prescribed in Scripture. I not attempting to bridge any gap. I've never researched the use of the gifts of the Spirit in the Church between the 1st Century and the 20th Century, so I can't give you a definitive answer on that. All I can do is tell you how I interpret the Scriptures and relate what I've personally seen.

 

[37818]

At issue. The Biblical gifts of tongues was God speaking, ". . . speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. . . ." -- Acts of the Apostles 2:4.
When Jesus cited the Law to the Devil, ". . . It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. . . ." That would include what God spoke and was never written down.
Now a doctrine of Christ is, ". . . these signs shall follow them that believe; . . . they shall speak with new tongues; . . ." -- Mark 16:17. (Only 3 current old manuscript copies of some 1700 copies of Mark omit this, BTW.) 2 John 1:9.

Also there is what Jesus said to unbelievers in John 8:47.

And the Apostle Paul wrote, ". . . forbid not to speak with tongues." -- 1 Corinthians 14:39.

Yet I am persuaded they have ceased (1 Corinthians 13:8-10; Revelation 19:10; Revelation 22:18).

 

[Lodic]

At issue. The Biblical gifts of tongues was God speaking, ". . . speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. . . ." -- Acts of the Apostles 2:4.
When Jesus cited the Law to the Devil, ". . . It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. . . ." That would include what God spoke and was never written down.
Now a doctrine of Christ is, ". . . these signs shall follow them that believe; . . . they shall speak with new tongues; . . ." -- Mark 16:17. (Only 3 current old manuscript copies of some 1700 copies of Mark omit this, BTW.) 2 John 1:9.

Also there is what Jesus said to unbelievers in John 8:47.

And the Apostle Paul wrote, ". . . forbid not to speak with tongues." -- 1 Corinthians 14:39.

Yet I am persuaded they have ceased (1 Corinthians 13:8-10; Revelation 19:10; Revelation 22:18).

I've heard the "cessation" argument from 1 Corinthians 13 before. Could you explain how the passages from Revelation support the argument? (Maybe I'm just missing something. As my wife tells me, I'm not the sharpest knife in the kitchen.)

 

[37818]

I've heard the "cessation" argument from 1 Corinthians 13 before. Could you explain how the passages from Revelation support the argument? (Maybe I'm just missing something. As my wife tells me, I'm not the sharpest knife in the kitchen.)

Revelation 22:18, ". . . For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, . . ." The seal on this prophecy of Jesus Christ (Revelation 1:1) is not to add or delete from the hearing of it. And since all prophecy is ultimately about Christ (Luke 24:44; Revelation 19:10) this excludes any kind of revelation spoken or written after it (Revelation 1:1). Effectively what we would call a closed canon for our whole Bible as well as all the speaking gifts, with a known exclution of wisdom as prophecied to be, Luke 21:15, and the the fulfillments as outlined in Revelation such as to two prophets Revelation 11:4. All Holy Scripture is understood to already be perfect James 1:25, and the gifts from God are both good and perfect, James 1:17. The two spaking gifts in 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 were said to be in part, and would be replaced by a perfect. The close of books to the Bible would be making the two gifts in part perfect.

 

[Lodic]

Revelation 22:18, ". . . For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, . . ." The seal on this prophecy of Jesus Christ (Revelation 1:1) is not to add or delete from the hearing of it. And since all prophecy is ultimately about Christ (Luke 24:44; Revelation 19:10) this excludes any kind of revelation spoken or written after it (Revelation 1:1). Effectively what we would call a closed canon for our whole Bible as well as all the speaking gifts, with a known exclution of wisdom as prophecied to be, Luke 21:15, and the the fulfillments as outlined in Revelation such as to two prophets Revelation 11:4. All Holy Scripture is understood to already be perfect James 1:25, and the gifts from God are both good and perfect. The two spaking gifts in 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 were said to be in part, and would be replaced by a perfect. The close of books to the Bible would be making the two gifts in part perfect.

I'd never considered that aspect before. While I still believe the gifts are for today just as they were for the 1st Century believers, you've given me much to ponder. Thank you.

 

[The Biblicist]

I must respectfully disagree, Brother. No doubt, the modern Pentecostal movement has corrupted the teaching, but the true roots go back to the Bible. I've been in services where it was done wrongly, and in services where they've followed the pattern prescribed in Scripture. I not attempting to bridge any gap. I've never researched the use of the gifts of the Spirit in the Church between the 1st Century and the 20th Century, so I can't give you a definitive answer on that. All I can do is tell you how I interpret the Scriptures and relate what I've personally seen.

How do you know that it is not ecstatic utterance instead of Biblical tongues?

 

[Lodic]

How do you know that it is not ecstatic utterance instead of Biblical tongues?

Only by the interpretation given. If no interpretation is given, it was probably not the Holy Spirit.

 

[The Biblicist]

Only by the interpretation given. If no interpretation is given, it was probably not the Holy Spirit.

I know of services where a Hebrew scholar read a short psalm in Hebrew and one of those who claim the gift of interpreting tongues gave an interpretation that had nothing to do with what he read. How do you know the one claiming interpretation really knows what they are claiming?

 

[Lodic]

I know of services where a Hebrew scholar read a short psalm in Hebrew and one of those who claim the gift of interpreting tongues gave an interpretation that had nothing to do with what he read. How do you know the one claiming interpretation really knows what they are claiming?

The only way to be absolutely certain would be if the tongues and interpretation was about something that you happened to be aware of. Otherwise, I'd have to take it on faith. Hopefully the kind of situation you described is rare, but it obviously does happen.

 

[The Biblicist]

Otherwise, I'd have to take it on faith.

No, that kind of faith is called feelings. Biblical faith is not blind but is the response to God's explicit word. The "substance" of Biblical faith is God's revealed word.

 

[Lodic]

No, that kind of faith is called feelings. Biblical faith is not blind but is the response to God's explicit word. The "substance" of Biblical faith is God's revealed word.

Biblical faith is what I would depend on. This may be a poor comparison, but imagine you were visiting friends or relatives in another city. While there, you attend their church, even though it's a different denomination. You would use the same Biblical faith to discern truth from error.