Challenging Common Translation Choices

[Martin Marprelate]

Do not love human society nor the things of human society. If anyone loves human society, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in human society, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from humanity. Fallen human society is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever. (Interpretive translation of 1 John 2:15-17)

'Do not love human society....' You'd better live alone in a cave then, Van. My church is full of human beings and I love their society.
Are you still not praying for humanity, Van?

 

[Van]

'Do not love human society....' You'd better live alone in a cave then, Van. My church is full of human beings and I love their society.
Are you still not praying for humanity, Van?

Yet another "attack the poster, ignore the position post" from the Calvinist gang. Here the poster ignores the corruptions of human society which we are to eschew, and the fallen humans we are to love and nurture by the grace of God.

Words should be translated according to their contextual meaning, not a one size fits all ambiguity.

When the context indicates human society with its flaws is in view, then that meaning should be chosen by translators.

Do not love human society nor the things of human society. If anyone loves human society, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in human society, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from humanity. Fallen human society is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever. (Interpretive translation of 1 John 2:15-17)​

 

[37818]

Kosmos is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts of the Apostles 17:24

Acts of the Apostles 17:24, ". . . God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; . . ."

". . . God that made mankind
and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven
and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; . . . "

1 John 2:15-17. If you translate kosmos as 'humanity' there, it might just contradict Matthew 5:43-44

Might?
1 John 2:15-17, ". . . Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. . . ."

". . . Love not mankind, neither the things that are in mankind. If any man love mankind, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in mankind, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of mankind. And mankind passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. . . ."

Matthew 5:43-44, ". . .
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; . . ."

John 17:9, ". . . I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. . . ."
". . . I pray for them: I pray not for mankind, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. . . "

Kosmos is used of Planet Earth: John 13:1; Ephesians 1:4, etc.

John 13:1, ". . . Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. . . ."
". . . Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of mankind unto the Father, having loved his own which were in mankind, he loved them unto the end. . . ."

Ephesians 1:4, ". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: . . ."
". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of mankind, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: . . ."

I can go on. But you never intended an answer to any of these.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Fallen human society is passing away,

You certainly don't have a way with words Van. You need to brush up on the English language before you even begin to attempt your interpretive skills of the original.

 

[Van]

You certainly don't have a way with words Van. You need to brush up on the English language before you even begin to attempt your interpretive skills of the original.

One way to wave the white flag is to address how something is said, to avoid addressing what was said...

When the context indicates human society with its flaws is in view, then that meaning should be chosen by translators.

Do not love human society nor the things of human society. If anyone loves human society, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in human society, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from humanity. Fallen human society is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever. (Interpretive translation of 1 John 2:15-17)

 

[RipponRedeaux]

One way to wave the white flag is to address how something is said, to avoid addressing what was said...

How something is said is, in fact, dealing with what was said. That's elementary for the rest of us Van.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Do not love human society nor the things of human society. If anyone loves human society, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in human society, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from humanity. Fallen human society is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever. (Interpretive translation of 1 John 2:15-17)

Rather than the above monstrosity, the NET states the following:
"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him, because all that is in the world (the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the arrogance produced by material possessions) is not from the Father, but is from the world. And the world is passing away with all its desires, but the person who does the will of God remains forever."

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Van, how would you "'interpret' 1 Cor. 7:31/ The NLT reads :
"Those who use the things of the world should not become attached to them. For this world as we know it will soon pass away."

 

[RipponRedeaux]

How would you 'interpret' the following passages Van?

2 Cor. 7:10
"For sadness as intended by God produces a repentance that leads to salvation, leaving no regret, but worldly sadness brings about death" (NET)
Titus 2:12
"It trains us to reject godless ways and worldly desires and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age." (NET)
2 Peter 1:4
"Through these things he has bestowed on us his precious promises, so that by means of what was promised you may become partakers of the divine nature, after escaping the worldly corruption that is produced by evil desire." (NET)
Jude 19
"These people create divisions. Since they don't have the Spirit, they are worldly." (CEB)

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Acts of the Apostles 17:24, ". . . God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; . . ."

". . . God that made mankind
and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven
and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; . . . "

Might?
1 John 2:15-17, ". . . Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. . . ."

". . . Love not mankind, neither the things that are in mankind. If any man love mankind, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in mankind, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of mankind. And mankind passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. . . ."

Matthew 5:43-44, ". . .
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; . . ."

John 17:9, ". . . I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. . . ."
". . . I pray for them: I pray not for mankind, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. . . "



John 13:1, ". . . Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. . . ."
". . . Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of mankind unto the Father, having loved his own which were in mankind, he loved them unto the end. . . ."

Ephesians 1:4, ". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: . . ."
". . . According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of mankind, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: . . ."

I can go on. But you never intended an answer to any of these.

If I carry on with this discussion I fear that I shall descend into either sarcasm or anger. If you really believe that God instructs us not to love mankind there is nothing more I can say.
Thank you for your time.

 

[37818]

If I carry on with this discussion I fear that I shall descend into either sarcasm or anger. If you really believe that God instructs us not to love mankind there is nothing more I can say.
Thank you for your time.

God in the Law said, Leviticus 19:18, ". . . thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: . . ." In the same letter 1 John 2:2 and 1 John 2:15-17 wrote in 1 John 5:19, ". . . we know that we are of God, and all mankind lieth in wickedness . . ." You choose to reject a usable translation by forcing irrational application.

 

[Van]

A few examples...
John 1:10, He was in human society, and humanity came into being through Him, and humanity did not acknowledge Him.
John 1:29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him, and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of humanity.
John 3:16 God loved humanity in this way, He gave His uniquely divine Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have everlasting life.
John 6:33 For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven and gives life to humankind.
John 6:51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I will give for the life of humankind also is My flesh.”
John 8:26 “I have many things to say and to judge regarding you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I say to humanity.
John 12:47 “If anyone hears My teachings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge humanity, but to save humanity.
John 13:1 Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus, knowing that His hour had come that He would depart from this human society to the Father, having loved His own who were in human society, He loved them to the end.
John14:31 but so that humanity may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me. Get up, let’s go from here.
John 16:28 “I came forth from the Father and have come into human society: again, I am leaving human society and going to the Father.”
John 17:6 “I have revealed Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of humanity; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have followed Your word.
John 17:21 that they may all be united; just as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that humanity may believe that You sent Me.
1 John 2:15-17 Do not love human society nor the things of human society. If anyone loves human society, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in human society, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from humanity. Fallen human society is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Van, answer my posts, numbers 68 and 68.

 

[Van]

Accordingly, the faith is based on heeding, moreover by heeding the declarations about Christ. (Interpretive translation of Romans 10:17)

Accordingly means "in light of the above" this is the response, according to context.
The faith refers to what we believe.
What we believe is based on our response to the declarations about Christ.
Heeding refers to comprehending and responding to information received.
Moreover is used in this construction to be emphatic.
By is a rendering of the preposition "dia" (by) indicating the means by which the gospel is comprehended and accepted.
The declarations refers to what was reported about Christ.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

"Van --how many posts will you spew the same stuff over and over and over again? You said your piece; wisdom would be to walk away before your posts become so trite and irrelevant that no one listens to anything you say. To me that would be a wise move." (Dr. Bob to Van 7-2-2015)

 

[Van]

Context guides the interpreter of scripture as to the probable meaning of source language words, from within the range of their historical/grammatical meanings.

Through faith appears about 19 times in the New Testament. If interpreters use context, the meaning is that God uses the faith of the individual, if credited by God as righteousness, to bestow whatever blessing is in view. We become children of God through faith. We are saved by grace through faith.

And it would take a rather large about of "hutspah" to claim "through faith" actually means "not through faith."

 

[jbible]

At any point in time, the active body of Christ is using the common translations (English in our case) of the day. We are familiar with the renderings, and if a translation differs we do not "like" it. For example, if you memorized verses in the KJV, you might not want to go with a version that differs.

Another problem is that a dismissive mantra might arise such as the HCSB is "quirky."

But, if you take courses, formal or informal, that teach Bible Study methods, you will find yourself as why this choice rather than that choice? Sometimes the answer is the versions are based on differing texts, CT, MT or TR. But even when looking at the verse same underlying text, translations present very different ideas.

For example, let us look at Romans 10:17, certainly an important text.

ESV
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

CEV
No one can have faith without hearing the message about Christ.

NKJV
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

If we consider these renderings, is faith traveling to us (comes) or is the idea faith is based on or arises from something.

Or does "the word of Christ" refer to the words spoken by Christ rather than declarations made by others about Christ?

And how do we decide what to believe concerning this verse. Some posting on this Board say go with the ones you like or the ones using the most used rendering. Of course that is advocating fallacy.

I enjoy comparing the KJV to any other translar=tion in regards to 1 Cor 1:18... and Rev 4:11...... 1 Cor 1:18... KJV..."which are saved"... all the rest?... "who are BEING saved".... I believe salvation is a once and forever done with act..... we are NOT in a process of "being saved"... just as Jesus.. nailed our sins to the cross... Jesus does Not have to re "die".. over and over again to pay for our sins... and Rev 4:11... why were we created...?...for God's pleasure... !.. we were created to please God... te other translations.. tell us.. how we were created... not why.. we were created...

 

[jbible]

Yet another Calvinist of the gang posting off topic gratuitous insults to derail discussion of bible study.

I am finding a lot of anti Calvinist beliefs on here... are there a lot of anti conservative.. or anti reformed as well?.. what about anti dispensationalists..?... I never knew that Baptists could disagree.. about.. so many things... I thought that is why we are Baptists... is it not?...why is there such a schism in what our views are..?..

 

[jbible]

Returning to topic:

Back to Romans 10:17, should we go with "so then" (NKJV) or "so faith" ESV or "no one" (CEV)? The Greek word means consequently or accordingly, or therefore. I like "accordingly" which forces the reader to look back and ask "according to what?"

the KJV states..."so then".. .....the ASV.."so belief".. the RSV.."so faith... the NASB "so faith".... does this make a difference?... the key word is the word.."so"... which is the connecting word... (conjunction).. letting us know that verse 17 is refering to what has previously been stated....I don't think we should be getting tied up worrying about the words after the word "so".. if we do not first understand the reason why...the word "so",.. is there...

 

[jbible]

Accordingly, the faith is based on heeding - moreover heeding the declarations about Christ.

hmmm I do not see where Faith comes by Heeding the word of God... here it states "hearing ".. the word of God.. we have to remember Faith is of God.. it does Not come to us or stay with us because we heed God... either God gives us faith or he does not....hearing and heeding are Not synonymous to each other...we can hear God's word and Not heed it.. and Still have Faith...only God can determine whether He will...strengthen... restore... or remove ....our faith....