Challenging traditional Translation choices.

[Van]

One of the most controversial verses in scripture is 1 Corinthians 11:3. Here is a traditional translation by the NASB95:
1 Corinthians 11:3 " But I want you to understand that [fn]Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of [fn]Christ."

The footnotes indicate "Christ" refers to "the Messiah" (thus God incarnate).

I am certainly not suggesting that the above choice, which is reflected in every translation I looked at, is wrong. But, in considering alternate possibilities, I wanted others to tell me why the alternate is not viable.

Here is a possible (based on just substitution without regard for the nuances of Greek grammar) translation of the verse:

Yet - I am willing - you - be aware -
that - the - head - of every - person -
is - the - Christ -
so the - head - of woman,
the - man - Christ - the - God,
also - [is] - head.

This choice says the opposite of every other translation by very well qualified scholars. Is there something in the Greek that indicates the traditional choices?

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

No. Christ is in the Genitive Case which indicates that there exists possession of the head belonging to Christ.

in other words you could Christ’s Head is God.

 

[Van]

No. Christ is in the Genitive Case which indicates that there exists possession of the head belonging to Christ.

in other words you could Christ’s Head is God.

Thanks, but is not "the man" indicated as in possession of Christ the God, i.e. God incarnate? The "man" is single male as is Christ the God.

 

[Jordan Kurecki]

Thanks, but is not "the man" indicated as in possession of Christ the God, i.e. God incarnate? The "man" is single male as is Christ the God.

No because then man would have to also be in the genitive case and its not, its in the nominative case and it has to go with “the head of the woman” otherwise that phrase would grammatically make no sense and be incomplete

 

[Van]

No because then man would have to also be in the genitive case and its not, its in the nominative case and it has to go with “the head of the woman” otherwise that phrase would grammatically make no sense and be incomplete

Thanks, I think I understand.

Thus, this version is consistent with Greek grammar:

Yes, I am willing you be aware that the head of every person is the Christ, even so the head of a wife is the husband, as God is the head of Christ.

 

[Van]

Thus while each person's head is Christ, the wife models our relationship with God by acting under the authority of her loving husband, as we operate under the authority of our loving God. This helps to imbue our families with an understanding of doing for others based on love. For example, if you love God, you will keep His commandments.

Not exactly the mainstream view, but apparently consistent with Greek grammar.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Thanks, I think I understand.

Thus, this version is consistent with Greek grammar:

Yes, I am willing you be aware that the head of every person is the Christ, even so the head of a wife is the husband, as God is the head of Christ.

No. The Greek word that you have mistranslated 'person' is andros. the genitive of aner, which means 'man' in the sense of being male, not anthropos, which can sometimes be translated as 'person.'

You should change the title of this thread to 'Challenging correct translation choices.'

 

[Van]

No. The Greek word that you have mistranslated 'person' is andros. the genitive of aner, which means 'man' in the sense of being male, not anthropos, which can sometimes be translated as 'person.'

You should change the title of this thread to 'Challenging correct translation choices.'

Why do you post such obvious falsehoods? You do know that word is translated as person in many versions!! You should learn to accept truth, such as just because a translation fits with the grammar does not mean it is the best understanding. I made no claim my version was correct, only allowed by the grammar. In James 1:20 for example the CSB, LEB, and NET go with human. Others go with person such as CEB, CJB, and GW.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Why do you post such obvious falsehoods? You do know that word is translated as person in many versions!! You should learn to accept truth, such as just because a translation fits with the grammar does not mean it is the best understanding. I made no claim my version was correct, only allowed by the grammar. In James 1:20 for example the CSB, LEB, and NET go with human. Others go with person such as CEB, CJB, and GW.

Does not alter the fact that aner means 'male' (or sometimes 'husband').

 

[Van]

Does not alter the fact that aner means 'male' (or sometimes 'husband').

Complete nonsense, the Lexicons say the word is sometimes used to refer to a group including both sexes, i.e. people!!!

If you would take the time to study our word, then look at Luke 11:31, where our word is also sometimes translated as people, rather than just men.

The truth is older translations may have reflected the culture of paternalism, but the actual inspired message appears to teach equality in Christ.

 

[Van]

Thus, this version is consistent with Greek grammar:

Yet I am willing you be aware that the head of every person is the Christ, even so the head of a wife is the husband, as God is the head of Christ

While each born anew person's head is Christ, the wife models our relationship with God by acting under the authority of her loving husband, as we operate under the authority of our loving God. This helps to imbue our families with an understanding of doing for others based on love. For example, if you love God, you will keep His commandments.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Complete nonsense, the Lexicons say the word is sometimes used to refer to a group including both sexes, i.e. people!!!

If you would take the time to study our word, then look at Luke 11:31, where our word is also sometimes translated as people, rather than just men.

The truth is older translations may have reflected the culture of paternalism, but the actual inspired message appears to teach equality in Christ.

OK, Dr Van; tell us all what your qualifications are for making these pronouncements. Tell us at what college or university you studied Greek so deeply that you have the confidence to pontificate on these matters.

 

[Van]

OK, Dr Van; tell us all what your qualifications are for making these pronouncements. Tell us at what college or university you studied Greek so deeply that you have the confidence to pontificate on these matters.

Rule 70!!

Note Martin did not even admit the word can indeed be translated as person. Nope, he just continues to push falsehoods. Next he might even deny that Christ is the head of born anew females. You never know with naysayers. They take no positions, but everyone else is wrong, and unqualified. He claims a person cannot read a lexicon presented in the English language without a special degree. Hogwash

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Forty times in the N.T. aner is translated as 'husband.' In fact it is the only Greek word translated as 'husband.' Does @Van believe that the Scripture allows for husbands of either gender? It would make far more sense to translate 1 Corinthians 11:3 as " But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every husband, and the husband is the head of a wife, and God is the head of Christ," since a man is not the head of a woman who is not his wife or unmarried daughter.

There is a word, anthropos, which may often be translated as 'person.' One has to be tremendously careful in translating aner as 'person.' It usually means 'man' as opposed to 'woman' as it does in 1 Cor. 11:3 where the man is being contrasted with a woman. Consider 1 Timothy 2:8-9. The men or husbands (andres) are to do one thing; the women or wives (yunaikas) are to do another. It is worth noting that the 'men' are to eschew 'wrath' (Gk. orge) which in the N.T. is basically a male emotion and never ascribed directly to women. Hence James 1:20 uses aner rather than anthropos, and beyond a doubt it should be translated 'men' rather than 'people.'

In Luke 11:31, our Lord could easily have used anthropoi rather than andres. His anger was usually reserved to the exclusively male Jewish religious leaders (e.g. Matthew 23 passim) rather than the common people who 'heard Him gladly' (Mark 12:37). Therefore I suggest that here too, 'men' is a more sound translation than 'people.'

Aner has the meaning of man in the sense of 'male person' in the same way that no one would consider translating gune as anything else but 'woman' or 'wife.' The English word 'androgen' which is derived from it is the specific male sex hormone. There may be the odd place where it is legitimate to translate it as 'people' - the context will always take priority - but I can't think of one off-hand, and great care would need to be exercised, because aner means 'a male' or 'a husband.'.

Translating any language accurately is a difficult matter, and it is not to be undertaken by anybody who has not studied the language at some length. For someone who has no knowledge whatsoever of Greek to pass himself off as some sort of expert and deceive people that he knows what he's talking about when all he has is a dictionary or lexicon is at best the blind leading the blind

 

[RipponRedeaux]

Yet I am willing you be aware that the head of every person is the Christ, even so the head of a wife is the husband, as God is the head of Christ

Here I take issue with your poor grammar.
"Yet I am willing you be aware." Why can't you plainly say one of the following?
"I want you to be aware"
"I want you to know."
"I want you to understand."

Paul is making intentional distinctions in this passage. It's not "every person" but "every man." Verses 3 through 15 of this chapter set off men and women, or husbands and wives. To remove that differentiation disrupts the theme of what Paul is discussing, and hence, distorts the Word of God. Don't wrest the Scriptures Van.

 

[Van]

SNIP ' Does @Van believe that the Scripture allows for husbands of either gender? It would make far more sense to translate 1 Corinthians 11:3 as " But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every husband, and the husband is the head of a wife, and God is the head of Christ," since a man is not the head of a woman who is not his wife or unmarried daughter. SNIP

It is worth noting that the 'men' are to eschew 'wrath' (Gk. orge) which in the N.T. is basically a male emotion and never ascribed directly to women. Hence James 1:20 uses aner rather than anthropos, and beyond a doubt it should be translated 'men' rather than 'people.'

In Luke 11:31, our Lord could easily have used anthropoi rather than andres. His anger was usually reserved to the exclusively male Jewish religious leaders (e.g. Matthew 23 passim) rather than the common people who 'heard Him gladly' (Mark 12:37). Therefore I suggest that here too, 'men' is a more sound translation than 'people.' SNIP

For someone who has no knowledge whatsoever of Greek to pass himself off as some sort of expert and deceive people that he knows what he's talking about when all he has is a dictionary or lexicon is at best the blind leading the blind

1) Only a deceiver would suggest I believe husbands can be of any gender. Thus an effort to disparage without regard for truth.

2) Does Martin claim that Christ is not the head of every born anew female? He did not say. Thus deflection.

3) Does Martin claim females are unable to be wrathful?

Proverbs 21:9 It is better to live in a corner of a roof Than in a house shared with a contentious woman.
Proverbs 21:19 It is better to live in a desert land Than with a contentious and vexing woman.
Proverbs 25:24 It is better to live in a corner of the roof Than in a house shared with a contentious woman.
Proverbs 27:15 A constant dripping on a day of steady rain And a contentious woman are alike;​

4) Martin tells us the inspired words could be better if another word was chosen. Then claims I pass myself off as an expert.

Basically a disinformation post, devoid of enlightenment.

 

[Van]

1 Peter 3:1-6 seems on point, that external adornment (braided hair, hats, jewelry) are mere reflections of the inner person, respecting the existing culture, so as to not stir up strife, but presenting a gentle and quiet spirit, precious to God, and fostering godly behavior.

 

[RipponRedeaux]

1 Peter 3:1-6 seems on point, that external adornment (braided hair, hats, jewelry) are mere reflections of the inner person, respecting the existing culture, so as to not stir up strife, but presenting a gentle and quiet spirit, precious to God, and fostering godly behavior.

"Respecting the existing culture." Huh? You have to elaborate on that unbiblical concept Van.

 

[Van]

"Respecting the existing culture." Huh? You have to elaborate on that unbiblical concept Van.

Why? All you post are "taint so" posts, devoid of truth. And if you are unaware of that fact we are not to stir up strife, God help you.

 

[Van]

Here is an alternate translation of 1 Corinthians 11:3 that is apparently consistent with the Greek grammar of the text:
Yet I am willing you be aware that the head of every person is the Christ, even so the head of a wife is the husband, as God is the head of Christ.

The Greek word translated person is often translated as "man or husband" but can also be translated as "human" or "person" when the group in view contains both male and female, as in this case.

While each born anew person's head is Christ, the wife models our relationship with God by acting under the authority of her loving husband, as we operate under the authority of our loving God. This helps to imbue our families with an understanding of doing for others based on love. For example, if you love God, you will keep His commandments.