Not the motivation for my question or comments.
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Champions of moderation- not abstinence
- Thread starter Luke2427
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Not the motivation for my question or comments.
Alive in Christ
New Member
Even though I have completly seperated my self from the drink, reefer, and drugs I used to embib in...I agree completly with this...(particularly the part about the backword fundamentalists)
convicted1
Guest
If you're a pastor, and one of your flock sees you drinking and they are offended by it, then what? After counciling them and they still would be offended and would leave if they knew you touched another drop of alcohol, would you stop, or keep drinking, with the possibilty of losing one of your sheep? How about 10-15 members come to you, the pastor, and say they are offended about you drinking the occasional glass of wine? Would you, as a pastor, stop for the wellfare of your sheep, or enjoy the occasional drink and risk losing part of your flock? FTR, I am NOT in the "teetotaller" camp anymore, but you should do this at home and NOT in public for the risk of harming other believers, imo.
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Don't bother. Luke knows nothing as he ought to know, and, until he dethrones his belly, won't.
However, if God has anything to do with him, he's headed for an education. He will learn the admonition support the weak, and, at the end of the lesson, when his tuition bill comes due, he'll think back on these conversations.
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Apparently he would call them a gnostic and send them on their way.
Then they need to stay away from it.
I agree. They also should not drive if affected that way.
Anytime there is a debate on moderation, the legalists always claim moderation is a sin because of the opinions of weaker believers. One's doctrine should be based on Scripture alone, not on the preferences of immature believers. That is exactly what Paul calls them. Those who are easily offended at the eating of meat, drinking of alcohol, playing of non-hymnal music, etc are weak(immature) Christians. Fundy-types who think they are more spiritual than those of us who live out our liberty in Christ in moderation are deceiving themselves. Thinking themselves to be wise, mature believers, when their's is really a self-righteous religion.
When the self-righteous read Paul's warning against offending weaker brethren, they should read the entire text & be convicted for their weak (immature) spirituality. We would do well to read where Christ broke the man-made Pharisaic laws of His day when He picked grain & healed the sick on the Sabbath. Paul was not telling us to conform our doctrine & liberty to the traditions of religious men who look for offenses as a means of controlling the brethren.
I know brethren with whom I can drink a beer & discuss theological topics at the same time. I also have witnessed to the unsaved with a drink in my hand. After correcting their false understanding of Christ & Christianity, it was easier to share the truth with them. The unsaved in our culture view God, Christ, & Christians as dogmatic, legalistic, law-imposing, stick in the mud, condemning, judgmental religious fanatics because of modern day Pharisees.
If any church has believers who have been saved for 5, 10, 40 years while still condemning moderate drinking, non-hymnal music, etc; then there is something very wrong with that church. These "pharisees" are not being fed the meat of the Word which would mature them beyond their weak spirituality. Their condition is due to shallow leadership who are constantly "laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment". Such pastors "ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that uses milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil".
Every tree is known by the fruit it produces. Pastors are known by the fruit sitting in the pews. Church pews are full of easily offended, weak brethren which are the fruit of equally spiritually immature preachers.
When the self-righteous read Paul's warning against offending weaker brethren, they should read the entire text & be convicted for their weak (immature) spirituality. We would do well to read where Christ broke the man-made Pharisaic laws of His day when He picked grain & healed the sick on the Sabbath. Paul was not telling us to conform our doctrine & liberty to the traditions of religious men who look for offenses as a means of controlling the brethren.
I know brethren with whom I can drink a beer & discuss theological topics at the same time. I also have witnessed to the unsaved with a drink in my hand. After correcting their false understanding of Christ & Christianity, it was easier to share the truth with them. The unsaved in our culture view God, Christ, & Christians as dogmatic, legalistic, law-imposing, stick in the mud, condemning, judgmental religious fanatics because of modern day Pharisees.
If any church has believers who have been saved for 5, 10, 40 years while still condemning moderate drinking, non-hymnal music, etc; then there is something very wrong with that church. These "pharisees" are not being fed the meat of the Word which would mature them beyond their weak spirituality. Their condition is due to shallow leadership who are constantly "laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment". Such pastors "ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that uses milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongs to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil".
Every tree is known by the fruit it produces. Pastors are known by the fruit sitting in the pews. Church pews are full of easily offended, weak brethren which are the fruit of equally spiritually immature preachers.
Thank you for your inisight brother.
Galatians 5
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
No matter who we conlude are the weaker brother we owe them the debt of agape love.
HankD
Agreed. And in brotherly love, they should be lovingly corrected & taught how to become mature children of God.
Its also legal to murder a baby. The government is not the basis in defining biblical drunkenness. Being tired impairs driving more than drinking studies show, are you going to argue now tiredness is a sin and less than sober minded?
Well go ahead and get "buzzed" (drunk) whenever you like. Its indefensible but hey its only a little bit drunk so why not huh?
Stupid reasoning stemming from a question begging fallacy...no thanks...its fathers day.
You don't do it- period. The weaker brother should not perish because I want to enjoy my liberty.
That's not the point. The point is we ought to be moving our flocks away from Phariseeism (teaching for doctrines the traditions of men- which is precisely what teetotalism is).
We ought to be moving them to maturity which means moving them toward liberty.
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
And suppose your message of moderation causes someone to take that first drink and they get addicted? Do you think God is pleased when the "moderation" message causes someone else to stumble?
Agreed.
2 Timothy 2
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
HankD
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
HankD
:thumbs:
Excellence reference. Thanks!
One that I need to take to heart more often. And, with a hope that brothers and sisters will do the same when debate is used for instruction. Isn't that why we do it? To teach and to learn............
I never thought I would see the DSM-IV TR referenced on the BB. Now I think I have seen everything- LOL!
Inspector Javert
Active Member
A message of "moderation" does not "cause" anybody to do anything, any more than a message on chastity "causes" someone to be chaste. That is an impossible scenario.
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