Champions of moderation- not abstinence

[Winman]

My drinking?

What do you mean by "my drinking"?

I am asking you how your wife feels about your drinking? Is she fine with it? Does it ever bother her? If so, why does it bother her?

I personally don't drink, so I can't answer a question like this.

 

[Inspector Javert]

You beg the question, who says it doesn't glorify God? Did it glorify God when a neighbor offered a beer and we were able to discuss salvation?

Personally......I was able to do this about 3 days ago. My neighbor was laboring in the hot summer sun mowing his lawn with his $200 Craftsman push-mower.

I jumped on my $2,500 40" zero-turn Ariens commercial mower with a cold Yuengling and polished off his lawn in about 5 mins.......and then rode up to the sweat-soaked young man with an ice-cold refreshing brew.

I'm white and he is black....and his reaction was such that, after jawing about the "Gators" and the "Jaguars" a bit...he opened-up, and I could share Christ with him and hand him a gospel tract. (A KJV one of course :laugh. Anyone who thinks that it "hurts your witness" to give a sweat-soaked young man a refreshing cold beer...............has never tried to witness to such an individual after handing him one. It works! :thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Obviously.....he means to imply that "drinking" is the same as "drunkenness" and that "YOU"...since you don't preach against the consumption of alcohol in toto.....that you are personally one who "drinks"....which is synonymous with being a "drunkard".

IGNORE the obvious fact that there are two separate words in our language to delineate the difference. He is speaking as though there is no difference whatsoever.

That's what he means of course, only......he won't tell you that. He is using a semantic ambiguity to impugn you, since.............the Scriptures themselves don't do it for him.

I wasn't implying anything, simply curious. We all have to stand before God and give account for ourselves someday, but we have to stand before our wives NOW. :laugh:

 

[Inspector Javert]

I wasn't implying anything, simply curious. We all have to stand before God and give account for ourselves someday, but we have to stand before our wives NOW. :laugh:

O.K........"teetotaler-speak" grates on my nerves to no end sometimes. I usually avoid these kinds of threads (I usually simply refuse to read them)....because most teetotalers speak nothing but nonsense. I got my dander up and got defensive

Sorry if I jumped to conclusions about your intent

 

[Winman]

O.K........"teetotaler-speak" grates on my nerves to no end sometimes. I usually avoid these kinds of threads (I usually simply refuse to read them)....because most teetotalers speak nothing but nonsense. I got my dander up and got defensive

Sorry if I jumped to conclusions about your intent

That's ok. It was a very cruel question, I freely admit that. :thumbs:

I would still be interested in how Luke and others would answer this.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Personally......I was able to do this about 3 days ago. My neighbor was laboring in the hot summer sun mowing his lawn with his $200 Craftsman push-mower.

I jumped on my $2,500 40" zero-turn Ariens commercial mower with a cold Yuengling and polished off his lawn in about 5 mins.......and then rode up to the sweat-soaked young man with an ice-cold refreshing brew.

I'm white and he is black....and his reaction was such that, after jawing about the "Gators" and the "Jaguars" a bit...he opened-up, and I could share Christ with him and hand him a gospel tract. (A KJV one of course). Anyone who thinks that it "hurts your witness" to give a sweat-soaked young man a refreshing cold beer...............has never tried to witness to such an individual after handing him one. It works!

:thumbsup::thumbsup::applause::thumbsup:

 

[Herald]

The most important thing in this whole discussion is not to call your brother's liberty evil. Likewise your brother is not to call your voluntary limit on liberty (commonly referred to as a scruple) evil. Both sides need to consider how their view of Christian liberty can effect others and take strides to eliminate or lessen any negative perceptions. After all we are our brother's keeper.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Baptists don't need alcohol to have bad health - our fried chicken does it.

Maybe we need to start preaching against gluttony.

Fried chicken..southern thing not Baptist thing. Up in Yankee land its baked ziti.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Personally......I was able to do this about 3 days ago. My neighbor was laboring in the hot summer sun mowing his lawn with his $200 Craftsman push-mower.

I jumped on my $2,500 40" zero-turn Ariens commercial mower with a cold Yuengling and polished off his lawn in about 5 mins.......and then rode up to the sweat-soaked young man with an ice-cold refreshing brew.

I'm white and he is black....and his reaction was such that, after jawing about the "Gators" and the "Jaguars" a bit...he opened-up, and I could share Christ with him and hand him a gospel tract. (A KJV one of course :laugh. Anyone who thinks that it "hurts your witness" to give a sweat-soaked young man a refreshing cold beer...............has never tried to witness to such an individual after handing him one. It works! :thumbs:

Yingling...An American made lager! :thumbs:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That's ok. It was a very cruel question, I freely admit that. :thumbs:

I would still be interested in how Luke and others would answer this.

My wife, being a recovering alcoholic, knows full well the difference between a drunk and a non drunk. She is fine with my drinking cause I'm not an abuser.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

Christ made fermented wine for those who were already intoxicated. If you don't think the wine was fermented, or that the drinkers were already intoxicated, you could be a (1) a fundamentalist, (2) don't have access to a concordance, or (3) have no desire to look up the original meanings of the words of Scripture; just to continue believing what you have been taught.

"And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it. When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk(to drink to intoxication), then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him" (John 2:1-11)

 

[Luke2427]

Personally......I was able to do this about 3 days ago. My neighbor was laboring in the hot summer sun mowing his lawn with his $200 Craftsman push-mower.

I jumped on my $2,500 40" zero-turn Ariens commercial mower with a cold Yuengling and polished off his lawn in about 5 mins.......and then rode up to the sweat-soaked young man with an ice-cold refreshing brew.

I'm white and he is black....and his reaction was such that, after jawing about the "Gators" and the "Jaguars" a bit...he opened-up, and I could share Christ with him and hand him a gospel tract. (A KJV one of course :laugh. Anyone who thinks that it "hurts your witness" to give a sweat-soaked young man a refreshing cold beer...............has never tried to witness to such an individual after handing him one. It works! :thumbs:

Amen!

Christians the world over win souls to Christ over a beer.

It is just in this country where we still have so many very backwoods, hayseed IFB type Christians that it is taboo. But numbers of such people are are rapidly diminishing... And I can't wait to see the last one go.

I honestly believe revival will come to this country when we finally shake off the vestiges of fundy thought.

 

[saturneptune]

Baptists don't need alcohol to have bad health - our fried chicken does it.

Maybe we need to start preaching against gluttony.

Here is one that preached against it just last Sunday.

 

[saturneptune]

Amen!

Christians the world over win souls to Christ over a beer.

It is just in this country where we still have so many very backwoods, hayseed IFB type Christians that it is taboo. But numbers of such people are are rapidly diminishing... And I can't wait to see the last one go.

I honestly believe revival will come to this country when we finally shake off the vestiges of fundy thought.

I hear you can spot them a mile away. They just got a certain look about them.

 

[HisWitness]

Here is one that preached against it just last Sunday.

and that nasty PIG that YAH said NOT to consume--:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Luke2427]

I hear you can spot them a mile away. They just got a certain look about them.

I don't understand.

 

[evangelist6589]

Luke,

This is a well thought out post. Perhaps reading Desiring God by John Piper has helped you, as Piper does not argue we cannot enjoy life, but that we can! Christian Heidionism means we can enjoy life and be glad, but be glad in God for He brings us delight!

One of the things that hurts our witness in this world is our gnostic tendency to demand abstinence of so many things.

For the most part, modern Christian fundamentalists are little more Gnostics- believing that matter is evil and spirit is good and therefore we should abstain from most physical pleasures like drinking alcohol and just be super-spiritual meditating upon spiritual things like monks all day.

But Christianity, in its real form uncorrupted by backwards fundamentalism, is the champion of moderation- not abstinence.

Ours is not a religion of "taste not, touch not." It is one of "Enjoy the goodness of God in all things- but enjoy it in moderation so that you don't corrupt the experience."

Drunkards do not enjoy drinking like moderate drinkers do. Addiction, hangovers, and a thousand other things that come with the ABUSE of alcohol RUINS the experience.

So, simple-minded Christians come along, always needing things to be simple, avoiding the real complexity of many issues like the plague because they are intimidated by it, and they just BAN it.

How much better to model moderation than abstinence!

I love what C. S. Lewis says about this matter in Mere Christianity:

Temperance is, unfortunately, one of those words that has changed its meaning. It now usually means teetotalism. But in the days when the second Cardinal virtue was christened 'Temperance,' it meant nothing of the sort. Temperance referred not specially to drink, but to all pleasures; and it meant not abstaining, but going the right length and no further. It is a mistake to think that Christians ought all to be teetotallers; Mohammedanism, not Christianity, is the teetotal religion. Of course it may be the duty of a particular Christian, or of any Christian, at a particular time, to abstain from strong drink, either because he is the sort of man who cannot drink at all without drinking too much, or because he is with people who are inclined to drunkenness and must not encourage them by drinking himself. But the whole point is that he is abstaining, for a good reason, from something which he does not condemn and which he likes to see other people enjoying. One of the marks of a certain type of bad man is that he cannot give up a thing himself without wanting every one else to give it up. That is not the Christian way. An individual Christian may see fit to give up all sorts of things for special reasons�Cmarriage, or meat, or beer, or the cinema; but the moment he starts saying the things are bad in themselves, or looking down his nose at other people who do use them, he has taken the wrong turning.

 

[evangelist6589]

Oh boy, anutter drunkard thread....go buy a keg and enjoy.........

No one wants to get drunk. There is nothing wrong with having a Mikes Lemonade while I eat my chicken while I watch TV, or read. This is not sin, so stop trying to turn it into a sin.

 

[evangelist6589]

A couple of reasons:

1. Stupidity is never contained within a vacuum. Teetotalism is stupidity. It affects others. The reason there ARE so many weaker brethren who people with good biblical sense CANNOT enjoy liberty around is because of the plague of ignorant teetotalism thought dominant within churches of our culture. People with good sense can't enjoy liberty anywhere in this culture because there are so many weaker brethren around here made weaker by ignorant, backwater, fundamentalist thinking. We ought to beat back ignorance for that reason.

If I can show you how stupid it is, then maybe you will not spread that ignorance to others who would rob many other Christians with good sense from enjoying their liberty.

2. This is a debate site. That's what we are supposed to do here. Hello?

I would not take it that far Luke. People have the right to choose not to drink or to drink. Its not wise to condemn those that choose to abstain from alcoholic beverages. Have you read the Meat and vegetables chapter in Romans? Luke we need to not do anything that would cause another brother to stumble and that includes drinking if it does. However if it does not we have the freedom to drink if we do mot get drunk and sin.

 

[Luke2427]

I would not take it that far Luke. People have the right to choose not to drink or to drink. Its not wise to condemn those that choose to abstain from alcoholic beverages. Have you read the Meat and vegetables chapter in Romans? Luke we need to not do anything that would cause another brother to stumble and that includes drinking if it does. However if it does not we have the freedom to drink if we do mot get drunk and sin.

Who said they don't have a right to abstain?

What I am saying is that they should not preach against moderation.

In the Kingdom, they do NOT have the right to impugne Christian liberty.
They do not have the right to condemn what God commends.
They do not have the right to spread ignorance.

I don't think we ought to play patty-cake with such people.
They are a hindrance to Kingdom work.