Change of man's MORAL nature in the Fall

[JonC]

That may pertain to foundations as a wrong foudation means everything built upon it is no better than the foundation. However, my foundations were solid and so were the inferences drawn from those foundations.

I don't doubt that.

There are many solid foundations that are not biblical ones I granted yours was solid enough to stand on its own....even divorced from Scripture all together .

 

[The Biblicist]

I don't doubt that.

There are many solid foundations that are not biblical ones I granted yours was solid enough to stand on its own....even divorced from Scripture all together .

Why don't you shut this thread down, I don't think it has any more value.

 

[JonC]

Biblicist has correctly offered the texts and teaching on spiritual death when he was posting to Hank D

No, he hasn't.

The issue is his idea of "spiritual death". No passage speaks of Adam as dying spiritually.

In fact, while Scripture deals with people who are "spiritually dead" the notion of a "spiritual death" as presented in this thread is myth.

The "second death" is for the "spiritually dead" (those who do not have life in Christ).

The issue is how much @The Biblicist 's view is foundational to his theory and how much is actual Scripture.

Think of it, @Iconoclast . Who does Scripture present as being alive spiritually and then dying? Adam? No. The lost? No. They will die the second death but they are not made spiritually alive. The believer? No. We are made alive but not to die.

 

[JonC]

Why don't you shut this thread down, I don't think it has any more value.

There may be discussion to be had (you are not the only one here).

It is approaching the number of posts that will warrant closing.

 

[JonC]

A clear indication of that is found in Hebrews2:
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Man was originally made lower than the Angels, but those in Christ are raised above them

1cor6:


1 Corinthians 6 King James Version (KJV)

6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Exactly.

The passage is referring to the Incarnation and man, which is a little lower than the angels. Is resurrected man (in Christ) going to be a little lower than the angels? (You don't have to guess, Scripture tells us....and it negates the thesis of the OP).

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC

No, he hasn't.

The issue is his idea of "spiritual death". No passage speaks of Adam as dying spiritually.

Sure he has.;Gen2:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
In the day thou doest eat, dying thou shalt surely die.

here is YLT;
17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

Spiritual death is a reality, something died that day according to the text. Adam did not physically keel over

In fact, while Scripture deals with people who are "spiritually dead" the notion of a "spiritual death" as presented in this thread is myth.

Sorry, but sometimes your posts speculate to the point of being mythical. Your quest to uncover and try out all manner of views perhaps is getting you off course.

The "second death" is for the "spiritually dead" (those who do not have life in Christ).

Yes, all who sinned in Adam at one point in time,rom3;23

The issue is how much @The Biblicist 's view is foundational to his theory and how much is actual Scripture.

I think Biblicist has presented his case step by step. I have not seen anyone offer scriptural correction, line by line. he is open to any and all who can refute his presentation using scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

Exactly.

The passage is referring to the Incarnation and man, which is a little lower than the angels. Is resurrected man (in Christ) going to be a little lower than the angels? (You don't have to guess, Scripture tells us....and it negates the thesis of the OP).

In Christ, we are above angels reigning with Christ.

 

[percho]

JonC



Sure he has.;Gen2:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
In the day thou doest eat, dying thou shalt surely die.

here is YLT;
17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

Spiritual death is a reality, something died that day according to the text. Adam did not physically keel over



Sorry, but sometimes your posts speculate to the point of being mythical. Your quest to uncover and try out all manner of views perhaps is getting you off course.

Yes, all who sinned in Adam at one point in time,rom3;23


I think Biblicist has presented his case step by step. I have not seen anyone offer scriptural correction, line by line. he is open to any and all who can refute his presentation using scripture.

The day he ate was he at that moment, dead in trespass and sin? I say yes.

Dying he would die. 930 years later that took place. Where is he today? Dead...Spiritually dead or just dead. DEAD.

Why? Because God told him,"thou shalt not eat of it:"

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; Rom 8:20 NKJV

Did Adam, even though he did not know it, die with Hope? Had the Lamb been foredained to die for redemption?

Can/will the death of Christ pay the sin debt of Adam? Can Adam be redeemed from death?


In reality aren't the only two men who really count for anything in the word of God, the first man Adam and the last Adam, Christ?

 

[JonC]

In Christ, we are above angels reigning with Christ.

Is there a time we will not be "in Christ"?

My point is that there are aspects of the OP that is mythology.

Scripture never....not even once....presents one as dying spiritually. Natural man is of the flesh and "spiritually dead", but NEVER experiences a "spiritual death". Instead he needs a "spiritual birth".

The lost will never experience a "spiritual death" as they were never "made alive" in Christ.

But how much of the OP's thesis depends on the myth of a "spiritual death"?

This is what happens when people start building theory on theory. Soon what you have is far removed from Scripture but people accept it as if it were inspired truth. It is like the illustration of the frog boiling with increased heat without noticing.

 

[The Biblicist]

No, he hasn't.

The issue is his idea of "spiritual death". No passage speaks of Adam as dying spiritually.

In fact, while Scripture deals with people who are "spiritually dead" the notion of a "spiritual death" as presented in this thread is myth.

The "second death" is for the "spiritually dead" (those who do not have life in Christ).

The issue is how much @The Biblicist 's view is foundational to his theory and how much is actual Scripture.

Think of it, @Iconoclast . Who does Scripture present as being alive spiritually and then dying? Adam? No. The lost? No. They will die the second death but they are not made spiritually alive. The believer? No. We are made alive but not to die.

There is such a thing as necessary inference in proper biblical exegesis. This is when a statement is made in scripture that leaves no other reasonable conclusion.

Genesis 2:17 explicitly states that Adam would die "in the day" he ate. Romans 5:12 repeatedly says by that one act of disobedience "death" entered the world. Hence, there can be no reasonable question that Adam died in some sense at the very moment he sinned. No conjecture here. No speculation needed to draw that conclusion.

Now, his body did not die "in that day" as Genesis 5 explicitly says that he "lived" for 930 years. Hence, death in the sense of his body being separated from his spirit did not occur "in that day." No speculation here.

Whatever the nature of death that had its entrance into the world in direct connection with his sin event is the same death "passed" on to all men. No speculation here as that is what Romans 5:12 clearly states. The "death" that entered is the "death" that was "passed" unto all mankind.

Hence, this leaves us only with three possible options for defining the nature of "death":

1. Spiritual death - spiritual separation from God due to sin
2. Physical death - material separation from immaterial
3. Second Death - separation of spirit,soul, and body eternally from God in Gehenna

I do not believe it is speculation to conclude that Adam was not cast into Gehenna spirit, soul and body "in the day" he sinned.

I do not believe it is speculation to conclude that Adam was not materially separated from his spirit "in the day" he sinned as Genesis 5 specifically says "he LIVED" and did not die until 930 years later.

Hence, that leaves only one other option and that "in the day" he sinned he suffered "spiritual separation from God due to sin. This must be the first aspect of death because it separates any living being from God who is the source of all life - "being alienated from life of God" which sets all other forms of death in motion. Without this aspect occuring first no other aspect of death is possible.

I don't think this is speculation either because the same "death" which entered the world at the point of his sin is the same "death" which is "passed" down to all mankind. Hence, all we have to do is determine the nature of death which all mankind receive from Adam in order to define the nature of death that occurred "in the day" he sinned because it is that same "death" passed down to all mankind. I don't believe that is speculation unless you can show that in Romans 5:12 "death" in the first phrase is not the same "death" in the second phrase. The normal reading of the text would demand the "death" that entered this world in direction connection with his sin event is the same "death" passed down to all mankind - that is not speculation but simply the obvious normal reading of that text. Not only it is the obvious normal reading of that text but in Romans 5:15-19 it is repeatedly stated that it is that one act of disobedience, that one sin, by which "many be dead" and many be "condemned. So, there is no speculation here at all but a repeated statement that offers DENIES any other alternative but the death directly connected with that one sin event.

So, how does "death" enter our life? It does not enter due to our sin(s) as that is repudiated over and over again in Romans 5:15-19. If it entered our lives by our sins then Paul could not say over and over again "by one man's disobedience many be made sinners" but would have to say "by many men's sins many were made sinners."

So, how does "death" enter our life? Death does not have its entrance by our separation from God spirit soul and body by casting us in Gehenna! No conjecture here, because that is obviously false.

So, how does "death" enter our life? Death does not have entrance by separation of our material body from our immaterial spirit or physical death because we are born into this world and continue to LIVE physically until that occurs at a point in time.

The only other possible alternative is that "death" enters our life as spiritual separation from God as we come into this world "dead" in spirit or in spiritual death and that is why God can justly condemn a baby to death in the mother's womb. This is not speculation either but it is a fact that infants die in their mother's womb. Hence, they must be SINNERS in some sense already or they could not be condemned to death by God. The only possible sense is that they are SINNERS BY NATURE and are born into this world in a STATE OF DEATH = spiritual separation from God. This is not based on conjecture either but is precisely what Paul is proving in Romans 5:13-14.

He states that death occurs between Adam and Moses before the Law was given to Moses and therefore, death during this period of time cannot be attributed to them violating the Mosaic law, but neither can there be death, neither can death be justified where there is no law, so there had to be some kind of law they violated to justify them being brought under the condemnation of death.

What possible laws could have existed during that period of time which they could have violated in order to be justly condemned to death? There is only two possible laws they could have violated.

1. Law of Conscience
2. Law of the Garden - Gen. 2:17

The first law is not possible to justify death because infants, and others who are not capable of discerning right from wrong, thus, not capable of "the similitude (likeness) of Adam's sin = WILLFUL SIN yet suffer death.

The only possible law that they could have violated is the law in Genesis 2:17 and the only possible way they could be held accountable for violating that Law was either the whole human nature acted as one man in Adam violating that Law or they were somehow legally represented by Adam and thus legally held accountable for violating that sin which justified death even of infants in the womb.

The only logical alternative is that the whole human nature existed and acted as one man "in Adam" and the "death" that occurred "in that day" was SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God because that is precisely what is "passed" to the infant in the womb justifying death of that infant. Moreover, this SPIRITUAL STATE of death if not immediately condemned to physical death (in the womb) is the cause of physical and the second death in us because this SPIRITUAL CONDITION OF SEPARATION from God is in and of itself a STATE OF SIN. This is not speculative either, because if a person is spiritually separated from God that IS SIN.

This brings us back to Ephesians 4:18-19 and where Paul decribes the unregenerate state in terms of spiritual separation from God.

1. God is LIGHT - separation from light = "darkened"
2. God is LIFE - separation from life = "alienated from the life of God"
3. God is LOVE - separation from love = "being past feeling....hardend heart"
4. God is HOLY - separation from holiness = "given over unto....all uncleanness"

This is the nature of "death" in the day Adam sinned BECAUSE this is the nature of the fallen condition of man which is "passed" on from Adam.

Finally, death can have no existence or meaning unless something was previously LIVING that at that point in time "In the day" DIED. His body at that point in time did not die. His whole being was not cast into Gehenna at that point in time. The only other possible definition of death is the same death described in Ephesians 2:1 which is "passed" on to all mankind - "dead in tresspasses and sins." We do not sin to become sinners, we sin because we are sinners by nature which is a state of spiritual separation (Eph. 4:18-19). This is not speculation either because Jesus speaking of the "heart" says it is the tree (heart) that produces the fruit (works) if the tree (heart) is good so are the fruits. If the heart is evil so are the fruits. See the cause and consequence relationship? We sin because the heart is sinful and that is the CONDITION of a baby in the woman by nature they are already SINNERS BY NATURE and thus in a STATE OF SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God.

CONCLUSION: Jon is not capable of accepting this so I don't expect him to. I make my appeal to those who are objective readers because I think the evidence and necessary inferences overwhelminngly demand that my position is true. My position above is that "death" comes to man first as spiritual separation from God who is the source of life, this in turn leads to physical death and ultimately second death in that precise order and in no other possible order. Hence, where "death" occurs, it first is spiritual separation in nature as that is the mechanism for removing that being from the source of life found in God - thus "aleinated from the life of God" which in turn starts the processes of death in the body ending in separation of spirit from body which in turn leads to the Second death for all lost mankind.

 

[The Biblicist]

Is there a time we will not be "in Christ"?

My point is that there are aspects of the OP that is mythology.

Scripture never....not even once....presents one as dying spiritually. Natural man is of the flesh and "spiritually dead", but NEVER experiences a "spiritual death". Instead he needs a "spiritual birth".

The lost will never experience a "spiritual death" as they were never "made alive" in Christ.

But how much of the OP's thesis depends on the myth of a "spiritual death"?

This is what happens when people start building theory on theory. Soon what you have is far removed from Scripture but people accept it as if it were inspired truth. It is like the illustration of the frog boiling with increased heat without noticing.

The only "myth" is what you are teaching and it is pure myth. If your body is not "dead" and if you are not in Gehenna (second death) then what is it to be physically alive and yet "dead in tresspasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1)?????

No one needs to guess in order to answer my question as Paul immediately answers it in Ephesians 2:2-3 and in Eph. 2:12-13 and in Eph.4:18-19. It is a spiritual condition due to being "without God" that is characterized by the descriptions found in these verses. It is a spiritual condition due to sin but not our sins as we came into this world "condemned already" (Jn. 3:17) subject to immediate death even in our mothers womb. Hence, from the womb we were SINNERS BY NATURE and possible physial death at any moment demands that is so. If you don't understand this (and you don't) you don't even have a grasp of the fundamentals of salvation.

 

[The Biblicist]

Is there a time we will not be "in Christ"?

My point is that there are aspects of the OP that is mythology.

Scripture never....not even once....presents one as dying spiritually. Natural man is of the flesh and "spiritually dead", but NEVER experiences a "spiritual death". Instead he needs a "spiritual birth".

The lost will never experience a "spiritual death" as they were never "made alive" in Christ.

But how much of the OP's thesis depends on the myth of a "spiritual death"?

This is what happens when people start building theory on theory. Soon what you have is far removed from Scripture but people accept it as if it were inspired truth. It is like the illustration of the frog boiling with increased heat without noticing.

Spiritual death MUST be the first aspect of death as it is this aspect that separates us spiritually from God who is the SOURCE of all life. Only when separated from the SOURCE of life ("being alienated from the life of God" - Eph. 4:18) is it possible for physical death processes to begin and the Second death follows that. There can be no other possible order in death.

Hence, for Adam to die physically he must have been spiritually separated from God at the moment of sin and that is precisely why Paul says that the "death" he is speaking about entered into the world at the precise point of Adam's sin (Rom. 5:12).

The kind of "death" Paul is speaking about is due to condemnation and is a judgement on sin (Rom. 5:15-19). This kind of death had no existence in God's original creation and that is not speculation as Paul explicit gives the precise time this kind of death "entered the world" and that was at the point of Adam's sin and not a moment before (Rom.5:12). Hence, this kind of death included SPIRITUAL DEATH or SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God which is the fountain head and cause behind death in other forms (physical, eternal).

 

[JonC]

Spiritual death MUST be the first aspect of death as it is this aspect that separates us spiritually from God who is the SOURCE of all life. Only when separated from the SOURCE of life ("being alienated from the life of God" - Eph. 4:18) is it possible for physical death processes to begin and the Second death follows that. There can be no other possible order in death.

Hence, for Adam to die physically he must have been spiritually separated from God at the moment of sin and that is precisely why Paul says that the "death" he is speaking about entered into the world at the precise point of Adam's sin (Rom. 5:12).

The kind of "death" Paul is speaking about is due to condemnation and is a judgement on sin (Rom. 5:15-19). This kind of death had no existence in God's original creation and that is not speculation as Paul explicit gives the precise time this kind of death "entered the world" and that was at the point of Adam's sin and not a moment before (Rom.5:12). Hence, this kind of death included SPIRITUAL DEATH or SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God which is the fountain head and cause behind death in other forms (physical, eternal).

My point is this is all speculation built on a philosophical approach to Scripture. It assumes, contrary to the teachings we have of the early Christians, that the consequences of sin is primarily a "spiritual death".

Early teachings was that sin has consequences. It results in a physical death. We also face a judgement which find's its center in Christ. The consequence of sin is death (a physical death) as well as placing man at odds with God. The ultimate state of natural man is condemnation and the "second death" (hades and death cast into the lake of fire). But in Christ there is life for those who believe.

Your theory of "spiritual death" is simply not in the Bible. Theory is a very weak foundation upon which to build doctrine. But theory, granted....a "logical" theory....is the foundation upon which you build.

It simply does not exist in Scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

My point is this is all speculation built on a philosophical approach to Scripture. It assumes, contrary to the teachings we have of the early Christians, that the consequences of sin is primarily a "spiritual death".

Early teachings was that sin has consequences. It results in a physical death. We also face a judgement which find's its center in Christ. The consequence of sin is death (a physical death) as well as placing man at odds with God. The ultimate state of natural man is condemnation and the "second death" (hades and death cast into the lake of fire). But in Christ there is life for those who believe.

Your theory of "spiritual death" is simply not in the Bible. Theory is a very weak foundation upon which to build doctrine. But theory, granted....a "logical" theory....is the foundation upon which you build.

It simply does not exist in Scripture.

One again, your conclusion is pure hot air and nothing more. I carefully demonstrated with clear explicit scritpure each step and completely precluded speculation. YOu simply can't deal with it and the absolute proof that you can't deal with it is that you offer no exegetical based evidence to challenge even one single expository conclusion I draw - not one! Why? Because you know you cannot do it as you would look absolutely foolish. What is absolutely hilarious is that the very thing you are condemning is the very thing you are doing - speculation without a shed of Biblical support. At least I provide scripture, interpretation, and exegetical comments but you only philosophize - pure hot air.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You don't answer with scriptures, you don't deal with scriptures provided. You don't show how scriptures have been misinterpreted. In short, you operate purely in philosophical hot air and frankly what you say is not worth the time or effort to even respond to.

I feel your pain. @JonC has produced no Scripture (up to page 4), has not interacted with any of your copious Scriptural references and yet has the brass neck to claim that you are not being Scriptural.

Unfortunately, this attitude is ruining the board.

 

[MB]

If you remember, as a direct result of their sin, Adam and Eve covered and hid themselves from God's physical presence. God did not ask where they were because He was ignorant and didn't know where they were. He wanted them to realize their sins separated them from him which was manifested by hiding themselves from his physical presence.

Secondly, He did not call them to Himself for fellowship but to judge them and cast them out of the garden.

Third, you are confusing hearing God's AUDIBLE voice which was intended for them to hear by their PHYSICAL ear in contrast with God's internal voice by his spirit which they had no awarness of because of their sins.

Fourth, the attempt to conceal their bodies by leaves and hiding in the Garden demonstrates a change in their moral nature as it appears that this physical fellowship with God had been the norm.

Try again.

It's true Adam and Eve's eyes were opened How ever you didn't mention Cains hearing God and the fact that God is spirit and they would have to have heard God speak spiritually. The same as today other wise we would have to say God changed His way of communication and we both know God does not change. Cain and Able both worshiped God because they both offered sacrifices and God we know for sure spoke to Cain.
It's not a matter of who wins an argument with me. My debating with you is a matter of truth and it will come out, it always does. Total depravity is a false doctrine it's put together with assumption and imagination. It is not soundly based on scripture. Total depravity isn't found in scripture.
MB
PS The scripture you used does not support what you claim it speaks differently than what you claim.

 

[MB]

If you remember, as a direct result of their sin, Adam and Eve covered and hid themselves from God's physical presence. God did not ask where they were because He was ignorant and didn't know where they were. He wanted them to realize their sins separated them from him which was manifested by hiding themselves from his physical presence.

Please tell us where God's presence is described as being physical from scripture with out your opinions. The Bibles I own do not ever say that. We are all in the presence of God always. God is simply every where.at the same time.

Try again.!
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

Is there a time we will not be "in Christ"?

My point is that there are aspects of the OP that is mythology.

Scripture never....not even once....presents one as dying spiritually. Natural man is of the flesh and "spiritually dead", but NEVER experiences a "spiritual death". Instead he needs a "spiritual birth".

The lost will never experience a "spiritual death" as they were never "made alive" in Christ.

But how much of the OP's thesis depends on the myth of a "spiritual death"?

This is what happens when people start building theory on theory. Soon what you have is far removed from Scripture but people accept it as if it were inspired truth. It is like the illustration of the frog boiling with increased heat without noticing.

Hello JonC

I think it happened one time,original sin rom3:23, Gen2:17...the rest are conceived that way psalm 51.
I do not think there is any way around this.
Let me offer this; in Acts 16:14 it speaks of Lydia whose heart the Lord opened....it does not say...she was born again. So does each text have to use the exact wording? Born again is not used outside it's of Jn3,1 Pet 1....so we could say none of the others were born again?
That is what you are indicating.

 

[Iconoclast]

It's true Adam and Eve's eyes were opened How ever you didn't mention Cains hearing God and the fact that God is spirit and they would have to have heard God speak spiritually. The same as today other wise we would have to say God changed His way of communication and we both know God does not change. Cain and Able both worshiped God because they both offered sacrifices and God we know for sure spoke to Cain.
It's not a matter of who wins an argument with me. My debating with you is a matter of truth and it will come out, it always does. Total depravity is a false doctrine it's put together with assumption and imagination. It is not soundly based on scripture. Total depravity isn't found in scripture.
MB
PS The scripture you used does not support what you claim it speaks differently than what you claim.

Mb
You know how isa29:10-24 speaks of people who can physically hear the words but cannot understand them spiritually accurately?
It is like that.
Jn 12:37-40

 

[MB]

Mb
You know how isa29:10-24 speaks of people who can physically hear the words but cannot understand them spiritually accurately?
It is like that.
Jn 12:37-40

Look at it as the wise and you may find that those who are being talked about are the self called wise In other words who think they know it all. Verse 10 says who they are.
[/QUOTE]
Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

It wasn't everyone but only these "know it all" men who make false accusations misleading the people. about books that were sealed up. We call them hypocrites. They pretend they know everything with out anything to back them up.

Isa 29:21 That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.

A thing of nought. is a thing that is made up that means nothing.
MB