Change of man's MORAL nature in the Fall

[JonC]

JonC



Sure he has.;Gen2:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
In the day thou doest eat, dying thou shalt surely die.

here is YLT;
17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'

Spiritual death is a reality, something died that day according to the text. Adam did not physically keel over



Sorry, but sometimes your posts speculate to the point of being mythical. Your quest to uncover and try out all manner of views perhaps is getting you off course.

Yes, all who sinned in Adam at one point in time,rom3;23


I think Biblicist has presented his case step by step. I have not seen anyone offer scriptural correction, line by line. he is open to any and all who can refute his presentation using scripture.

The verse does not say "you will spiritually die on that day". Study "dying you shall die" before applying anything to that text.

He makes his case line by line, BUT his case does not actually depend on the Scripture he provides. He reads into the text.

 

[The Biblicist]

It's true Adam and Eve's eyes were opened How ever you didn't mention Cains hearing God and the fact that God is spirit and they would have to have heard God speak spiritually. The same as today other wise we would have to say God changed His way of communication and we both know God does not change. Cain and Able both worshiped God because they both offered sacrifices and God we know for sure spoke to Cain.
It's not a matter of who wins an argument with me. My debating with you is a matter of truth and it will come out, it always does. Total depravity is a false doctrine it's put together with assumption and imagination. It is not soundly based on scripture. Total depravity isn't found in scripture.
MB
PS The scripture you used does not support what you claim it speaks differently than what you claim.

No, it was a visible presence of God (Son) in the Garden with an audible voice that even the Serpent could hear.

 

[The Biblicist]

Please tell us where God's presence is described as being physical from scripture with out your opinions. The Bibles I own do not ever say that. We are all in the presence of God always. God is simply every where.at the same time.

Try again.!
MB

It presents God "walking" in the garden - v. 8 but they were hid among the trees. In addition he "made coats" out of skins for them.

 

[The Biblicist]

The verse does not say "you will spiritually die on that day". Study "dying you shall die" before applying anything to that text.

He makes his case line by line, BUT his case does not actually depend on the Scripture he provides. He reads into the text.

It says "IN" that day and correspond precisely with the eating event. Are you going to tell us that they did not eat "on" that day either? It began "in that day" and that is clear and it is demanded by the context.

 

[MB]

It presents God "walking" in the garden - v. 8 but they were hid among the trees. In addition he "made coats" out of skins for them.

Your not saying that God has to be present physically in order to make clothing out of skins. God created the universe and all there in and not once did have to make Him self physical to do it. No where in Genesis was God making Him self physical. The only part of God that is physical is Jesus Christ, and even He wasn't physical until after His birth. We have to remember.
Joh_1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1Jn_4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
At first when I read your post I thought that hear is a man who knows scripture. Then I read what you were referencing as proof text and realized first impressions aren't always so
Your argument is with God, Friend. His word says no man has ever seen God. Jesus has seen God but then Jesus is God. and those who did see Jesus did not see God.
MB

 

[The Biblicist]

Your not saying that God has to be present physically in order to make clothing out of skins. God created the universe and all there in and not once did have to make Him self physical to do it. No where in Genesis was God making Him self physical. The only part of God that is physical is Jesus Christ, and even He wasn't physical until after His birth. We have to remember.
Joh_1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1Jn_4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
At first when I read your post I thought that hear is a man who knows scripture. Then I read what you were referencing as proof text and realized first impressions aren't always so
Your argument is with God, Friend. His word says no man has ever seen God. Jesus has seen God but then Jesus is God. and those who did see Jesus did not see God.
MB

No man has seen God in his pure glory, but men have seen God clothed in flesh and Theophanies of God in the Old Testament. This was a theophany of God. He is "walking" in the Garden. Spirits do not walk. The conversations are vocal and audible as Adam, Eve and the Serpent are all speaking to God just as God is speaking to them in an audible voice that the physical ear is hearing.

Of course, you only going to believe what you want to believe regardless of the evidence.

 

[InTheLight]

It presents God "walking" in the garden - v. 8 but they were hid among the trees.

Speculation is strong with this one...

Bible says they "heard the sound of God walking" or "heard the voice of the Lord walking".

8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: [KJV]

Most likely they heard the voice of the Lord originating from different places in the garden, as if it were a breeze moving and not a literal person walking.

In addition he "made coats" out of skins for them.

So, he was in human form and he sewed together some clothes? Isn't it more likely that he "created" the skins from nothingness?

 

[InTheLight]

Of course, you only going to believe what you want to believe regardless of the evidence.

Mirror, mirror.

Kettle, pot.

etc.

 

[The Biblicist]

Speculation is strong with this one...

Bible says they "heard the sound of God walking" or "heard the voice of the Lord walking".

8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: [KJV]

Most likely they heard the voice of the Lord originating from different places in the garden, as if it were a breeze moving and not a literal person walking.



So, he was in human form and he sewed together some clothes? Isn't it more likely that he "created" the skins from nothingness?

Do voices walk or is it "the Lord God walking" and what they heard was his voice while he was walking. "The Lord God" would be the more direct subject of the verb "walking" (in the English translation) and it would make much more sense than a voice walking. If it was the "sound" of the Lord God walking then he must have been "walking" to make the sound. Either way, God is walking and that indicates a theophany of God - a visible form that is audibly speaking and they are audibly hearing and responding to.

 

[MB]

No man has seen God in his pure glory, but men have seen God clothed in flesh and Theophanies of God in the Old Testament. This was a theophany of God. He is "walking" in the Garden. Spirits do not walk. The conversations are vocal and audible as Adam, Eve and the Serpent are all speaking to God just as God is speaking to them in an audible voice that the physical ear is hearing.

Of course, you only going to believe what you want to believe regardless of the evidence.

Theophanies at least as it is spelled here does not appear in scripture.

 

[The Biblicist]

Theophanies at least as it is spelled here does not appear in scripture.

My spelling is proper but if you mean the term is not found in scripture . That is a theological term to describe visible appearances of spirits (angels, God) in the Bible.

 

[The Biblicist]

Mirror, mirror.

Kettle, pot.

etc.

Ok, prove me wrong and accept the evidence for what it plainly indicates.

 

[JonC]

It says "IN" that day and correspond precisely with the eating event. Are you going to tell us that they did not eat "on" that day either? It began "in that day" and that is clear and it is demanded by the context.

It does not say IN that day you will spiritually die....or even die (I believe given your history you know this). Death is a process. Through Adam's sin death entered the world.

The idea that the verse proves man was spiritually alive and then died (spiritually and later physically) is not only inconsistent but it is reading theory into the text. It also assumes either a spiritual life outside of Christ or a temporary one in Him. It is a corruption of Scripture, period. And unfortunately it is the base you have chosen as a foundation for your thesis here.

 

[InTheLight]

Do voices walk or is it "the Lord God walking" and what they heard was his voice while he was walking. "The Lord God" would be the more direct subject of the verb "walking" (in the English translation) and it would make much more sense than a voice walking. If it was the "sound" of the Lord God walking then he must have been "walking" to make the sound. Either way, God is walking and that indicates a theophany of God - a visible form that is audibly speaking and they are audibly hearing and responding to.

Show us where anything is stated about the Lord being visible in Gen 3.

8 They heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.

9 Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”

 

[JonC]

Notice: the thread will be closed today.

 

[InTheLight]

Ok, prove me wrong and accept the evidence for what it plainly indicates.

You want me to prove a negative? Not happening. God was not a visible theophany in Genesis 3. It's simply not in the text.

Full stop.

(Another example of a Calvinist torturing the text to make it fit their theology.)

 

[MB]

Do voices walk or is it "the Lord God walking" and what they heard was his voice while he was walking. "The Lord God" would be the more direct subject of the verb "walking" (in the English translation) and it would make much more sense than a voice walking. If it was the "sound" of the Lord God walking then he must have been "walking" to make the sound. Either way, God is walking and that indicates a theophany of God - a visible form that is audibly speaking and they are audibly hearing and responding to.

Bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that I do not believe you. You are determined you believe you are right. I disagree and will always disagree with you on this point. You cannot convince me. You can try but you will never succeed.
MB

 

[The Biblicist]

It does not say IN that day you will spiritually die....or even die (I believe given your history you know this). Death is a process. Through Adam's sin death entered the world.

The idea that the verse proves man was spiritually alive and then died (spiritually and later physically) is not only inconsistent but it is reading theory into the text. It also assumes either a spiritual life outside of Christ or a temporary one in Him. It is a corruption of Scripture, period. And unfortunately it is the base you have chosen as a foundation for your thesis here.

The beginning point of "die" is fixed with the point of eating and there is no way you can deny that. Eating did occur "in" that day and therefore "die" did occur in that day as its beginning point. He did not physically died "in that day" did he. So physical dead did not occur. The Second death did not occur "in that day" did it.

Hence, something Paul decribes by the word "death" had its entrance into the world "in that day" Adam sinned (ate). So, at the very minimum that aspect of "death" which leads up to and concludes in physical and second death began "in that day." What aspect of death leads up to and concludes in physical and 2nd death? Answer: - "spiritual" death - bingo!

 

[The Biblicist]

You want me to prove a negative? Not happening. God was not a visible theophany in Genesis 3. It's simply not in the text.

Full stop.

(Another example of a Calvinist torturing the text to make it fit their theology.)

I never gave you a negative but I gave you a positive. In the English grammar the more immediate subject of the verb "walking" is "God" not "voice." Furthermore, voices do not walk. If you translate it "sound" what is it the sound of? Answer: "walking" sound. Common sense tells you that they heard the sound of God walking. spirits do not walk. Hence, it was a theophany as God was walking, speaking in an audible voice that Adam, Eve, and the Serpent heard and responded unto. This is the evidence that God presented himself in visible form (theophany).

 

[The Biblicist]

Bottom line as far as I'm concerned is that I do not believe you. You are determined you believe you are right. I disagree and will always disagree with you on this point. You cannot convince me. You can try but you will never succeed.
MB

Your mistaken. It is not my job to convince you or anyone else on this forum but simply place the evidence before you and prove my position to the point you have no reasonable objections. And this response demonstrates you have no reasonable objections or else you would present it.