Charismatic Errors Listed

[DHK]

So they were all saved before the cross? So people were saved before Jesus died and resurrected? So would you say they were saved by Faith?

Salvation is the same for all.
We are saved by faith.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--Abraham was saved by faith.

But the topic here is Charismatic Errors. What is your point?

 

[awaken]

Salvation is the same for all.
We are saved by faith.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--Abraham was saved by faith.

But the topic here is Charismatic Errors. What is your point?

I tried a different approach with you...and we agree on something!

 

[awaken]

Have you ever read Genesis? Faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.

Is that in Genesis or Hebrews?

 

[saturneptune]

Is that in Genesis or Hebrews?

Genesis 15:6, now return to your signs and wonders

 

[awaken]

Genesis 15:6, now return to your signs and wonders

Such a sweet spirit...I asked because I was not for sure!:smilewinkgrin:

 

[DHK]

I tried a different approach with you...and we agree on something!

Abraham believed without signs and wonders.
Abraham never spoke in tongues.
Abraham never had the "gifts of the Spirit."
Abraham, like us, was saved by faith in God. For him, as for us, there were no gifts of the Spirit.

 

[awaken]

Abraham believed without signs and wonders.
Abraham never spoke in tongues.
Abraham never had the "gifts of the Spirit."
Abraham, like us, was saved by faith in God. For him, as for us, there were no gifts of the Spirit.

Boy..even when we agree you have to come back with this!

Abraham was Old Covenant..we are New Covenant.
No one ever claimed Abraham spoke in tongues..that was for the church and was not poured out until the Day of Pentecost. Tongues and the interpretation are the only two manifestations that are not in the OT...they are just for the church!

So the OT saints did not have the indwelling Spirit, right? Can you be born again without the indwelling HS?

 

[DHK]

Boy..even when we agree you have to come back with this!

Abraham was Old Covenant..we are New Covenant.
No one ever claimed Abraham spoke in tongues..that was for the church and was not poured out until the Day of Pentecost. Tongues and the interpretation are the only two manifestations that are not in the OT...they are just for the church!

So the OT saints did not have the indwelling Spirit, right? Can you be born again without the indwelling HS?

You have accused me of going off topic.
I ask you again, what does the justification of OT saints have to do with this topic Charismatic Errors?

One of the biggest errors of this century is the Charismatic movement, a totally ecumenical movement working among almost every denomination in an effort to unite all denominations together regardless of what doctrine they hold--a key piece in the hand of the antichrist to build the One World Church that will come into play during the Tribulation Period. We are certainly in the end times.

But I want to make sure that I am on the right side, and have nothing to do with the enemy.

 

[awaken]

You have accused me of going off topic.
I ask you again, what does the justification of OT saints have to do with this topic Charismatic Errors?

One of the biggest errors of this century is the Charismatic movement, a totally ecumenical movement working among almost every denomination in an effort to unite all denominations together regardless of what doctrine they hold--a key piece in the hand of the antichrist to build the One World Church that will come into play during the Tribulation Period. We are certainly in the end times.

But I want to make sure that I am on the right side, and have nothing to do with the enemy.

One of the biggest schemes of satan is to divide and confuse the church! Division is his game! No church has complete truth!

THe Baptist church I attend does not promote such as you claim! But we also are not ignoring sciptures!
I believe God is calling out his true church and they will walk in power through the spirit and they will stand on the truth in His Word.
The church should be a place where Jesus is welcome...Where the great commission is taken seriously...worship is real and powerful...spiritual gifts abound...Spiritual battles are won...the hurting are sheltered..healing occurs..families are safe..The Bible is realeased in the Lives of the people.

I continue to cherish the great doctrinal heritage that is mine, through the Baptist...but I also joyfully and fully embrace the move of God's Spirit.

It is not just the charismatics that are in error! We have failed to teach and walk in the truths of the Bible!

 

[DHK]

One of the biggest schemes of satan is to divide and confuse the church! Division is his game! No church has complete truth!

I believe I have the complete truth. It is called the Word of God. It is right here in what we call the Bible. Everything God wants me to know about Him and salvation is contained in this book. There is no other revelation that God has given, other than what God has given in this book. It is His completed revelation. Yes, I have the complete truth.

If I didn't I wouldn't be in the ministry that I am in today. In fact I would quit.
I wouldn't be able to stand in front of my pulpit one Sunday, preach "the truth," and then come back the next Sunday and apologize, telling them that the truth changed during the week. For I didn't have the complete truth last week.
That is heretical, but the "so-called truth" of the Charismatics is always changing.

THe Baptist church I attend does not promote such as you claim! But we also are not ignoring sciptures!

Charismatics build doctrine upon experience; Baptists allow their experiences to come out of their doctrine or Scripture. The Scripture is always foundational. That is why one cannot be a Baptist and a Charismatic at the same time. (at least one of the reasons.)

I believe God is calling out his true church and they will walk in power through the spirit and they will stand on the truth in His Word.

There is no such thing as a "true church." The word "church" is ekklesia, which means assembly. It has the meaning of local church. There is no such thing as a universal church in the Bible. Every time the word church (ekklesia) is used it is assembly which can only be local assembly. It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly.

The church should be a place where Jesus is welcome...Where the great commission is taken seriously...worship is real and powerful...spiritual gifts abound...Spiritual battles are won...the hurting are sheltered..healing occurs..families are safe..The Bible is realeased in the Lives of the people.

First, spiritual gifts have ceased.
Second, do you actually carry out the Great Commission. You have to convince me on that one.
Third, spiritual battles are won when reality is embraced. Reality is not embraced when one does not realize that it is God who allows sickness and poverty and many other afflictions to come into this world. The Bible isn't released. It is studied, read, memorized, meditated on, and used to witness.

I continue to cherish the great doctrinal heritage that is mine, through the Baptist...but I also joyfully and fully embrace the move of God's Spirit.

Hopefully the Holy Spirit moves in and through the lives of the people that make up your local church. There is no such thing as some metaphysical invisible universal church. Where does it meet? What purpose does it have?

It is not just the charismatics that are in error! We have failed to teach and walk in the truths of the Bible!

Then stay in your local church and learn. Revival first begins on one's own heart, and then in one's own church.

 

[awaken]

I believe I have the complete truth. It is called the Word of God. It is right here in what we call the Bible. Everything God wants me to know about Him and salvation is contained in this book. There is no other revelation that God has given, other than what God has given in this book. It is His completed revelation. Yes, I have the complete truth.

I have never said His Word was not complete truth...but our understanding of his word is not completly accurate!

If I didn't I wouldn't be in the ministry that I am in today. In fact I would quit.
I wouldn't be able to stand in front of my pulpit one Sunday, preach "the truth," and then come back the next Sunday and apologize, telling them that the truth changed during the week. For I didn't have the complete truth last week.
That is heretical, but the "so-called truth" of the Charismatics is always changing.

Really? You have never changed one view since you began in His Word? I have come across MANY Baptist preachers that have changed several views!

Charismatics build doctrine upon experience; Baptists allow their experiences to come out of their doctrine or Scripture. The Scripture is always foundational. That is why one cannot be a Baptist and a Charismatic at the same time. (at least one of the reasons.)

I believed the Word first! The experience came after!

Jesus always talked of a balance life, a need to operate in Spirit and Truth! Too often I have seen tradition and theories often lifted higher than sciptures.
*One of those traditions is cessatonism! The Holy Spirit was given until we reach the end of the earth. Thre still remains parts of the world that do not know the gospel, so how could this promise be completed?
*Another contradiction is the gifts ceased when the last apostle died..this can not be because Mark 16 promises that signs and wonders would follow "those who believe."
*Another is that it ceased when the canon of Scripture was completed. But no one can give an exact date for this occurrence, since thre is much debate about when the canon was actually closed...some still can not agree if the Apocrypha should be included in our Bible.
*Another is when we try to divide up the Bible into ages that the Bible does not divide.
All of these theories and ideas are often elevated to the same plane as the Holy Sciptures.
My experiences are documented with scriptures!

There is no such thing as a "true church." The word "church" is ekklesia, which means assembly. It has the meaning of local church. There is no such thing as a universal church in the Bible. Every time the word church (ekklesia) is used it is assembly which can only be local assembly. It is impossible to have an unassembled assembly.

Jesus will come for a bride!! One body! So which local assembly will it be?

First, spiritual gifts have ceased.
Second, do you actually carry out the Great Commission. You have to convince me on that one.
Third, spiritual battles are won when reality is embraced. Reality is not embraced when one does not realize that it is God who allows sickness and poverty and many other afflictions to come into this world. The Bible isn't released. It is studied, read, memorized, meditated on, and used to witness.

THe Word is living! Pauls life was changed by not by knowledge and memorized scipture..he was knocked down by the Holy Spirit! He had an experience/an encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ!

Hopefully the Holy Spirit moves in and through the lives of the people that make up your local church. There is no such thing as some metaphysical invisible universal church. Where does it meet? What purpose does it have?

Then stay in your local church and learn. Revival first begins on one's own heart, and then in one's own church.

I will agree with you last statement!
Again, when we are called to be with our Groom...what local church will it be?

 

[Yeshua1]

I have never said His Word was not complete truth...but our understanding of his word is not completly accurate!

Really? You have never changed one view since you began in His Word? I have come across MANY Baptist preachers that have changed several views!

I believed the Word first! The experience came after!

Jesus always talked of a balance life, a need to operate in Spirit and Truth! Too often I have seen tradition and theories often lifted higher than sciptures.
*One of those traditions is cessatonism! The Holy Spirit was given until we reach the end of the earth. Thre still remains parts of the world that do not know the gospel, so how could this promise be completed?
*Another contradiction is the gifts ceased when the last apostle died..this can not be because Mark 16 promises that signs and wonders would follow "those who believe."
*Another is that it ceased when the canon of Scripture was completed. But no one can give an exact date for this occurrence, since thre is much debate about when the canon was actually closed...some still can not agree if the Apocrypha should be included in our Bible.
*Another is when we try to divide up the Bible into ages that the Bible does not divide.
All of these theories and ideas are often elevated to the same plane as the Holy Sciptures.
My experiences are documented with scriptures!

Jesus will come for a bride!! One body! So which local assembly will it be?

THe Word is living! Pauls life was changed by not by knowledge and memorized scipture..he was knocked down by the Holy Spirit! He had an experience/an encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ!

I will agree with you last statement!
Again, when we are called to be with our Groom...what local church will it be?

DHK and I would affirm that the spiritual gifts sucha steaching/giving/serving/administarting etc still given by the Spirit today to the saints, to equip and build up each local body, but the re are NO revelatory sign gifts still given, as not needed today!

 

[DHK]

I have never said His Word was not complete truth...but our understanding of his word is not completly accurate!

But you associate with those who do, and also infer that His Word is not complete. Phrases such as "The Lord said unto me...," "I have a word from the Lord...." Here is "a word of knowledge....." "In a dream God told me...," and in so many other expressions where the intent is made that God spoke to the individual in an inspired way. That is heresy. God does not speak to individuals like that any longer. He have his inspired Word. There are not two kinds of inspiration. There is only one, one inspired book, and it does not reside with the Charismatics.

"The Lord said to me..." is heresy. The Lord does not speak outside of His Word. Unless the person is speaking or quoting the Word of God, God is not speaking to him. God spoke, and it was done. God's revelation is complete. The canon of Scripture is complete. It was completed ca. 98 A.D. when John wrote the last book of the Bible, The Book of Revelation, and then all of the Bible was finished. There is a curse put on those who should add to those who would add to that prophecy, or since it is the last book, it is applicable to all the Bible. Revelation is closed. It is not open. The RCC and the Charismatics both believe we have open-ended revelation. The Catholic demonstrate that when ever a Pope speaks "ex cathedra". It is an announcement as if it were taken from God--inspired.
We have the Bible. That is all we need. All revelatory gifts (prophecy, tongues, revelatory knowledge) have ceased. They are no longer needed.

Really? You have never changed one view since you began in His Word? I have come across MANY Baptist preachers that have changed several views!

Yes, except for a few relatively minor things, like the overall outline of the Book of Revelation, my doctrine had not changed. It has deepened. I have come to a greater understanding, but it has not changed. Take justification for example. From that very basic understanding that I held shortly after I was saved and still hold--that justification is that point in salvation when God looks down upon you "just as if you never sinned." That is at antipodes with Michael Wrenn who bases his definition on history rather than the Bible. It is not in accordance with the RCC either. It is according to what the Bible teaches. My understanding of this doctrine has deepened. I have a fuller understanding of it. But it has not changed.

I believed the Word first! The experience came after!

So you say, or want to believe. You came to your experience after you had decades of solid Bible teaching. You wanted or perhaps even were looking for something new, a new experience, an experience not based on the Word of God, and you found it. You are too headstrong to believe that it is not of God, even though many on this board have pointed out to you its Scriptural fallacies.

Yes, your background says you believed the Bible first, and so you can claim that. But now you associate with a people who believe that experience comes first. Do your own search on the internet. Tongues is so important to the Charismatic that they teach you how to do it. Yet it was so unimportant to Paul that:
1. He puts it last in a list of gifts that he lists in order of importance (1Cor.12:28).
2. He says that he would rather speak five words with understanding then 10,000 words in tongues.
3. He compares it to prophecy, and in every case he values prophecy as better.
4. He puts such stringent restrictions on speaking in tongues/languages, that today, if those restrictions were followed, it would be impossible for any person to speak in tongues.

Jesus always talked of a balance life, a need to operate in Spirit and Truth! Too often I have seen tradition and theories often lifted higher than sciptures.
*One of those traditions is cessatonism! The Holy Spirit was given until we reach the end of the earth. Thre still remains parts of the world that do not know the gospel, so how could this promise be completed?

Cessationism is not a tradition; it is a doctrine. I have given you a list of Biblical reasons, many of which you are unable to refute, of why tongues are not for today. They have ceased. In this one reason alone, 1Cor.14:21,22, the prophecy is given to unbelieving Jews of the era of the apostles that if they did not believe the gospel during that time that judgment would come upon then! At that time! They did not believe. Judgment came. And in 70 A.D. Titus came and destroyed the city of Jerusalem, along with the Temple, and the nation of Israel was dispersed. They remained dispersed as a nation until 1948 when the U.N. allowed them to be a nation once again. But they still don't have a temple yet.
In this one prophecy alone, it makes tongues invalid. You don't have first century Jews among your churches or even society awaiting a first century judgement. It is past history. Tongues was a historical event that lasted only for a short season--the first century, and then it ended. It was a sign. When the purpose for the sign is fulfilled, the sign is taken away.

*Another contradiction is the gifts ceased when the last apostle died..this can not be because Mark 16 promises that signs and wonders would follow "those who believe."

Those who believed the apostles. The signs and wonders were given to the apostles to verify them as apostles. (Heb.2:3,4; 2Cor.12:12). Everything has context. Do you drink poison and not die? Do you pick up snakes?

*Another is that it ceased when the canon of Scripture was completed. But no one can give an exact date for this occurrence, since thre is much debate about when the canon was actually closed.

It was closed when the last book was written, the Book of Revelation, ca. 98 A.D., or near the end of the first century when all the other evidence is taken into account.

..some still can not agree if the Apocrypha should be included in our Bible.

Only Catholics assert that the Apocrypha are valid books. Jews, Protestants, pre-protestant groups, Baptists, and almost everyone else agree that these spurious books are not to be included in the canon of Scripture.

*Another is when we try to divide up the Bible into ages that the Bible does not divide.

That is a moot point, since you do the same thing. Why should one accept your view as better than others?

All of these theories and ideas are often elevated to the same plane as the Holy Sciptures.
My experiences are documented with scriptures!

Your theories are documented with your twist of Scriptures, and an avoidance of many Scriptures. You fail to take in the totality of Scriptures and your interpretation of Scriptures is very questionable.

Jesus will come for a bride!! One body! So which local assembly will it be?

He will come for his bride; his family.
Study 1Cor.12. "The body" often refers to a local church where each member makes up a member of that body of Christ where the Pastor is accountable to Christ and the members accountable to the Pastor, and each member has a particular gift or talent that he can use in the church.
When you consider the verse: "When one member suffers all the members suffer with it," you realize that it can only be talking about a local church. The suffering of a believer in Africa, South America, or Asia, has no bearing on your suffering or anyone else's outside of that particular local church. Chances are pretty good that you are totally ignorant of all the members of all the local churches of the world. It applies to that body, that local church or assembly, as it did in Corinth.
But often a family can be scattered all over the world. It will come together at the rapture. The bride (symbolically) will be the same way.

 

[DHK]

THe Word is living! Pauls life was changed by not by knowledge and memorized scipture..he was knocked down by the Holy Spirit! He had an experience/an encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ!

Do you not believe Romans chapter 5 where he shows how his life was changed? You challenge his testimony for the words of some Charismatic.

Paul, comparing himself to false teachers, gives his credentials, credentials that had changed his life and drawn him closer to Christ. Have you had any similar experiences?

2 Corinthians 11:23 Are they servants of Christ? (I speak as one beside himself) I am more so; in labors more abundantly, in prisons more abundantly, in stripes above measure, in deaths often.
24 Five times from the Jews I received forty stripes minus one.
25 Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I suffered shipwreck. I have been a night and a day in the deep.
26 I have been in travels often, perils of rivers, perils of robbers, perils from my countrymen, perils from the Gentiles, perils in the city, perils in the wilderness, perils in the sea, perils among false brothers;
27 in labor and travail, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, and in cold and nakedness.
28 Besides those things that are outside, there is that which presses on me daily, anxiety for all the assemblies.
29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is caused to stumble, and I don't burn with indignation?
30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that concern my weakness.
31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, he who is blessed forevermore, knows that I don't lie.

Those are the things that brought Paul closer to the Lord. He makes a point of telling the Corinthians that he is not lying.

I will agree with you last statement!
Again, when we are called to be with our Groom...what local church will it be?[/QUOTE]
Every Bible-base local church that has Christ as its head and the Bible as its foundation.

There is only one Christ. If he dwells in me, how does he dwell in you?
Is Christ divided? No.
Is there only one local church? No. There are many. But there is only one kind that Christ died for. They are not denominational such as the RCC in the Bible. Paul went on three missionaries and established about 100 local churches. He did not establish denominations. I hope that gives some understanding to your question.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have never said His Word was not complete truth...but our understanding of his word is not completly accurate!

Really? You have never changed one view since you began in His Word? I have come across MANY Baptist preachers that have changed several views!

I believed the Word first! The experience came after!

Jesus always talked of a balance life, a need to operate in Spirit and Truth! Too often I have seen tradition and theories often lifted higher than sciptures.
*One of those traditions is cessatonism! The Holy Spirit was given until we reach the end of the earth. Thre still remains parts of the world that do not know the gospel, so how could this promise be completed?
*Another contradiction is the gifts ceased when the last apostle died..this can not be because Mark 16 promises that signs and wonders would follow "those who believe."
*Another is that it ceased when the canon of Scripture was completed. But no one can give an exact date for this occurrence, since thre is much debate about when the canon was actually closed...some still can not agree if the Apocrypha should be included in our Bible.
*Another is when we try to divide up the Bible into ages that the Bible does not divide.
All of these theories and ideas are often elevated to the same plane as the Holy Sciptures.
My experiences are documented with scriptures!

Jesus will come for a bride!! One body! So which local assembly will it be?

THe Word is living! Pauls life was changed by not by knowledge and memorized scipture..he was knocked down by the Holy Spirit! He had an experience/an encounter with the Lord Jesus Christ!

I will agree with you last statement!
Again, when we are called to be with our Groom...what local church will it be?

what gifts do you have from the Lord than as regarding the "Spritual Gifts?"

When did you receive the "baptism in the Holy Spirit?"

What type of church attending, Full Gopsel baptist?