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Charismatic Errors Listed
- Thread starter John of Japan
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1 Corinthians 12:7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the profit of all.
8 For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom, and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith, by the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, by the same Spirit;
10 and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits; to another different kinds of languages; and to another the interpretation of languages.
11 But the one and the same Spirit works all of these, distributing to each one separately as he desires.
This is the one verse in the entire Bible where the phrase is used. Just one verse in the entire Bible!! That is all that you could find right? You can find more Scripture on God speaking to Moses from a burning bush than you can find on the "manifestation of the Holy Spirit" and yet you have built a major doctrine out of it.
You have ignored the context. Look at it. It was directed to the Corinthian Church. Paul was listing all the different gifts of the Spirit that were revealed or manifested in the church at Corinth but not necessarily anywhere else. He says very plainly in chapter 1, verse 7 that in their church they had all the gifts. But he never said that about any other church. One may also note that this church is the most carnal of all the churches, and the church that had more problems than any other.
One member of the church has one gift; another member has another gift; and so on. Not everyone has tongues. Not everyone has interpretation. Not everyone has the gift of teaching, etc.
No matter how you look at it 1Cor.12:7 is written to a local church and applicable only in a local church setting. The gifts are for the local church. They are not to be used outside of the church. That much is very plain from this passage.
You are building a doctrine around one verse of the Bible. Quite amazing!
And you are still good at twisting my words and misrepresenting me. I didn't say you stood for anything fake. I asked you directly if you did. And you still have not completely answered what I asked. So I'll ask it again.
Do you endorse these Charismatic doctrines? Or do you believe we should oppose (I did not say "agree with," I said "oppose") the teaching of the "little gods" doctrine, manifest sons of God doctrine, fake healings, fake tongues and the other heretical doctrines here listed?
Now that's really weird! And our experiences only highlight one more Charismatic error: their awful demonology!
Many Charismatics seem to believe there are demons everywhere, and that they cause all sickness (not in the Bible), that they inhabit inanimate items like chairs, etc. (not in the Bible), and the like. If the Charismatics are right (they are not), there would be 10 billion demons in the world at a minimum guess! And Satan himself would be close to omnipresent!
I do believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of healing and tongues being just two of them. The rest of what you mentioned I have no idea what they are! So I can't answer about them!
Oh, come now. You seem to be an intelligent person. Do you mean to tell me you can't come to an immediate decision on whether or not it is right to teach that we are little gods?
Let me help you out. By this these Charismatic leaders mean we are incarnated like Jesus Christ was. Kenneth Hagin said, "You are as much the incarnation of God as Jesus Christ was. Every man who has been born again is an incarnation and Christianity is a miracle. The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth" (Horton, p. 112). Would you:
(1) Agree.
(2) Disagree but let Hagin have his opinion.
(3) Disagree and stand up against Hagin's doctrine.
(4) Something else.
P. S. You should note that in my question I did not even mention your Spirit manifestations doctrine. To me that is a minor doctrine, and I've argued it enough with you. There are so many more errors, serious errors, in the Charismatic movement which you have decided you are a part of. In spite of our differences, I'm trying to help you see that.
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I have seen it all now! I gave you a scripture and it plain as the nose on your face. You use the old debate game of... if you can't refute it, change the subject! But I will address your "burning bush" distraction...I don't disbelieve that either, I believe God talk to Moses through a burning bush! It is in the Bible just like the manifestation of the Holy Spirit is!
I did not build a major doctrine out of it! I just believe what the Bible says without making excuses out of ignorance, fear or unbelief! The Bible says it! I believe it!
...and there is another scripture that mentions manifestation, but you probably will not like it either. It speaks of the power in the ministry.
"Therefore, seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not, But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in the craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by MANIFESTATION (open demonstration) of the truth comending ourselves to every man's concience in the sight of God." (2 Cor. 4) It goes on to say that the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not! Verse 7 says that we have this treasure in earthen vessels...what is that treasure? THE POWER OF GOD? What is the power of God? The Holy Spirit that is manifested through us as 1 Cor. 12 says!
So now you are saying that only Corinthians manifested the Holy Spirit?
He said a lot in Corinthians ...and a lot his letters were addressing churches..so by your reasoning we are to just throw Corinthians out the window. You can not pick and chose what you want to believe in the Bible.
The validity of an "administration of the Holy Spirit" never depends on the spiritual maturity of believers in the church or their conduct. It stands as as independent truth regardless of how God's people live. The argument you use is a "smoke and mirror" tactic. It is like saying that Christ's salvation isn't important because some of his people sin and act in an unrighteous manner from time to time. The salvation of provided by Jesus Christ is true, even if no one on earth believes in it. It is the same with the Holy Spirit manifestations!
So you are saying we can only do what Paul says in Corinthians and all his other books in the church building? Really?
If your definition of a Charismatic is all that you mentioned then I am not one! But Again I do believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit!
"The manifestation of the Holy Spirit" is six words. You have built a doctrine around six words in the Bible. Here is an example of what you are doing:
The Bible teaches:
"There is no God" (Psalm 14:1).
I can teach "there is no God" doctrine from Psalm 14:1 with as much authority and Biblical support as you can teach "the manifestation of the Holy Spirit," from 1Cor.12:7. You just have two more words in your phrase then I in mine.
Most cults take one doctrine of the Bible and take it to an extreme. For an example the SDA, from the beginning have focused their cult around the "Sabbath Day." That is where it started from. If you don't worship on the Sabbath but on some other day, then you worship the beast. They have taken the doctrine to an extreme and built a complete cult around Exodus 20:8.
The Oneness Pentecostal have done the same thing. They cannot give the plan of salvation outside of the Book of Acts. Since they believe that salvation requires baptism of the Holy Spirit followed by speaking in tongues, which is only found in the Book of Acts, they cannot lead a person to Christ using just John and Romans. They must have the Book of Acts. You are following in their footsteps.
Conclusion: The Bible says "There is no God" and therefore you believe it. You will believe anything the Bible says regardless of the context that it is given in.
You are like the lady (no doubt a Charismatic, for many of them find the will of God in precisely the same way this dear lady did) who opened her Bible at random letting her finger fall to whatever verse she would see first, and that would be, providentially God's will for her life.
First: Judas went out and hung himself. (not very good, so she tried again)
Go and do thou likewise. (Got real trouble now)
What thou doest, do quickly. (Now what??)
Is that how you also find God's will? Isn't that what you said?
"I just believe what the Bible says without making excuses out of ignorance, fear or unbelief! The Bible says it! I believe it!"
Those are your words. You don't have fear of imitating Judas? You believe what he did is true for you also. Just name it and claim it?
(ESV) But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God.
(Geneva) But haue cast from vs ye clokes of shame, and walke not in craftines, neither handle we the worde of God deceitfully: but in declaration of the trueth we approue our selues to euery mans conscience in the sight of God.
(ISV) Instead, we have renounced secret and shameful ways. We do not use trickery or pervert God's word. By clear statements of the truth we commend ourselves to everyone's conscience before God.
(LITV) But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor corrupting the Word of God, but by the revelation of the truth commending ourselves to every conscience of men before God.
(MKJV) But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness, nor adulterating the Word of God, but by the revelation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
There are five translations that avoid the use of the word "manifestation" and thus avoid your confusion. The oldest of the translations, the Geneva, simply says, "but in declaration of the truth." The passage has nothing to do with 1Cor.12. It has everything to do with the preaching of the gospel, for it is the preaching of the gospel that opens the eyes of the blind, opens the minds of those that are blinded by Satan.
What is the context:
2 Corinthians 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
--The context is preaching.
Yes he said a lot in this book. Every chapter he addressed a different problem:
Incest in chapter five.
Taking each other to court in chapter six.
Marital problems in chapter seven.
On and on the problems go--even to the denial of the resurrection in chapter 15.
But there are three entire chapters that deal with the abuse of spiritual gifts (ch. 12-14)
By your reasoning we pick the doctrine he is correcting, and use the correction to build a doctrine on. That is a weird way of thinking but if it works...
It is not hermeneutical, but then Charismatics never were. Remember the "There is no God" doctrine.
Who administers the Holy Spirit? You?? :laugh:
What Holy Spirit manifestations? There aren't any, and as much as I ask you, you don't give any valid examples. Why is that? They have ceased. You can't even tell the meaning of your own "tongues" nor the language the you speak in. You should hang your head in shame.
The manifestation (or display) of the Holy Spirit is given in the fruit of the Holy Spirit. It is the fruit of the Holy Spirit that we look for today, not the gifts.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Paul went on three missionary journeys and established about 100 local churches.
He wrote 13 epistles. Every one of those epistles were either written to a local church or to a pastor of a local church.
The local church does not always gather in a church building but it does gather. The word church means assembly, and it is organized. In Acts 12 the "church" or assembly met in the mother of John Mark's house as they prayed for Peter.
As you read through Corinthians and the other epistles keep in mind that they are written to local churches and its truths are mostly applicable in local church settings.
Well, I differ with the Pentcostals on several doctrines! Thanks to my Baptist roots I can give you the plan of salvation outside the book of Acts.
You are still ignoring the verse that says they are a manifestation of the Holy Spirit! You can write a 10 chapter book to distract away from that verse! But it is in there and in context proves that the Holy Spirit manifest by those 9 gifts! Now, unless you can prove different...don't waste my time with distractions! YOu either believe the verse in context or not!
You know exactly what I said and what you are posting has nothing to do with that verse! Deal with the verse in context and quit trying to distract away from it! Does it say manifestation of the Holy Spirit or not? Does it list 9 of the manifestations in verses following or not? ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS WITH A YES OR A NO!!
Another way of not addressing what was stated! Do you believe that the Corinthians were the only ones that could manifest the Holy Spirit or just the ones that were corrected? Please make the answer plain without distracting to something else!
You really do not know, do you? Jesus is the baptizer!
Shame! No Shame here! Nowhere in scriptures does it say I have to know the language. Your unbelief of the manifestations will not bring shame upon me!
You ask what manifestations...then claim there are none! Acts 12 says otherwise. So I will believe the Bible over your unbelief!
I agree that the fruit is the evidence of ones salvation. But I can believe both are from the Holy Spirit..where you can't!
But we can pray outside the church...we can teach outside the assembly..we can worship outside the assembly! So to say that everything that is taught to the local church has to stay in the church and can not be done elsewhere in private is not scriptural!
Just a note about the word Charismatic...
It comes from the Greek word charismata, which means "grace gifts." Several wonderful English words come from the word Charis: grace, Messiah, anoint, and joy, to name a few.:tongue3:
To tag all the weird stuff going on out there and say that ALL charismatic (those that believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit) believe that, is wrong! It is like saying ALL Baptist or All Methodist etc. believe the same. They don't! I do believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! I will not deny it here or anywhere else!
DO NOT ACCUSE ME OF BELIEVING SOMETHING I NEVER SAID I BELIEVED...as some here have twisted what I believe into something other than what I state myself!
It comes from the Greek word charismata, which means "grace gifts." Several wonderful English words come from the word Charis: grace, Messiah, anoint, and joy, to name a few.:tongue3:
To tag all the weird stuff going on out there and say that ALL charismatic (those that believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit) believe that, is wrong! It is like saying ALL Baptist or All Methodist etc. believe the same. They don't! I do believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit! I will not deny it here or anywhere else!
DO NOT ACCUSE ME OF BELIEVING SOMETHING I NEVER SAID I BELIEVED...as some here have twisted what I believe into something other than what I state myself!
If you want to play word games, especially using etymology, I am all for it.
Sunday--the day we worship the sun.
Thursday--the day we worship the god of Thor
Saturday--the day we worship the god of Saturne.
Be consistent. If you define words by their etymology you would be worshiping these planets and/or gods. Is that what you do?
Etymologies may give interesting facts about the history of our words, but they are not the definition of the word.
I am a Baptist by conviction. I associate with Baptists because of the doctrine and distinctives that Baptists are known for, and for the most part what they stand against. In the URL previously given the question was asked, "Can one be a Baptist and a Charismatic at the same time?" The overwhelming consensus of the ones posting on that thread was "No." There is too much difference in doctrine.
You call yourself a Charismatic, and therefore are associated with all the heretics within the movement--Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Hagen, Hagin, and even cult leaders like William Branham. This is who you are in bed with. Under the Charismatic movement are all kinds of heretics, unbelievers, frauds, money-grabbing false teachers, false prophets, etc. You are associated with them. They are your friends. You are a Charismatic. So are they.
The Bible clearly says:
2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
Reword your question and you will get a clear answer.
Do I believe they were the only ones that the Lord gave spiritual gifts, sign gifts? No, I don't.
The epistle to the Hebrews indicates that they witnessed the Apostles do miracles and exercise the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and it says very specifically that they were signs given to the Apostles. (Heb.2:3,4)
Did he baptize you? When and where? How do you know it was him?
Yes it does. It says that tongues are not to be spoken without interpretation. They are useless without interpretation. There is no such thing as a private prayer language, and you can't prove that there is, unless you have a great distortion of Scripture.
Acts 12 speaks of Peter being jailed. You are the one in unbelief.
You cannot demonstrate any of the gifts being manifested in contemporary times. They have all ceased. And you have no evidence to the contrary. You are blind and follow the blind. Why would you do that?
I can see the fruit of the Spirit in the lives of many believers.
But not even you can give evidence of just one person who has the genuine gift of any of the early sign gifts. Not one person!! And yet you say they are in existence and believe in them. You are a hypocrite!
You can't pray outside of the church if you tried. If you prayed you would know what you were praying about. But you don't. It is just all gibberish. You are probably saying "I love the devil," and don't even realize it. How would you know? You don't know what you are saying!
No! It list various gifts of the Holy Spirit that were distributed among the church at Corinth, that are not available to us today. They ceased at the end of the first century as Paul said they would in 1Cor.13:8
He said knowledge would cease?
Has knowledge ceased. If not when and where will it cease?
What knowledge will cease and why?
There is only one answer to that question that is acceptable.
I really thought you'd take a stand here. But you don't seem bothered by this Charismatic blasphemy and heresy, the idea that Christians are little gods like Jesus Christ (and therefore that Christ is not the third person of the trinity), and that born again people are just like Jesus in that they are the incarnation of God just like Jesus.
By refusing to take a stand against such blasphemous heresy, you discredit all that you've been saying about the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. If you were truly walking in the Spirit and filled with the Spirit, you would not have let this chance to magnify Christ go by. The Holy Spirit does not magnify Himself, he always uplifts the Lord Jesus Christ, as the Bible says: "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you" (John 16:13-14).
You'll write page after page about your doctrine of the manifestations of the Spirit, defending tongues and the like. But you won't stand up for Jesus. You are now clearly discredited.
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