Charismatic Errors Listed

[awaken]

Reword your question and you will get a clear answer.
Do I believe they were the only ones that the Lord gave spiritual gifts, sign gifts? No, I don't.
The epistle to the Hebrews indicates that they witnessed the Apostles do miracles and exercise the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and it says very specifically that they were signs given to the Apostles. (Heb.2:3,4)

Didn't you just contradict yourself? You just said that the Corinthian church was not the only ones that had spiritual gifts...they said that only Apostles had the gifts?

Did he baptize you? When and where? How do you know it was him?

Yes, He did! Did he save you? How and when? how do you know it was Him?...do you see how silly your questions are?

Yes it does. It says that tongues are not to be spoken without interpretation. They are useless without interpretation. There is no such thing as a private prayer language, and you can't prove that there is, unless you have a great distortion of Scripture.

THat is in a church setting! It also tells you to pray for interpretation. So why can't you pray in the spirit and pray for the interpretation at home? There is so much you do not understand about tongues and the benefits!

Acts 12 speaks of Peter being jailed. You are the one in unbelief.
You cannot demonstrate any of the gifts being manifested in contemporary times. They have all ceased. And you have no evidence to the contrary. You are blind and follow the blind. Why would you do that?[/quote} I meant Cor. 12 but you probably knew that! Your opionion and unbelief does not change what is real!

I can see the fruit of the Spirit in the lives of many believers.
But not even you can give evidence of just one person who has the genuine gift of any of the early sign gifts. Not one person!! And yet you say they are in existence and believe in them. You are a hypocrite!

Name calling must be a regular thing on this forum..because when someone can not back up there beliefs they resort to it! A heritic..liar..now a hypocrite! Boy! your fruits are really showing...:thumbs:

You can't pray outside of the church if you tried. If you prayed you would know what you were praying about. But you don't. It is just all gibberish. You are probably saying "I love the devil," and don't even realize it. How would you know? You don't know what you are saying!

I am not going to even answer this childish stuff anymore!

 

[awaken]

No! It list various gifts of the Holy Spirit that were distributed among the church at Corinth, that are not available to us today. They ceased at the end of the first century as Paul said they would in 1Cor.13:8

He said knowledge would cease?
Has knowledge ceased. If not when and where will it cease?
What knowledge will cease and why?
There is only one answer to that question that is acceptable.

We have hashed this out already! Go read the thread that was closed!

 

[John of Japan]

You can't pray outside of the church if you tried. If you prayed you would know what you were praying about. But you don't. It is just all gibberish. You are probably saying "I love the devil," and don't even realize it. How would you know? You don't know what you are saying!

Linguistic research proves that modern tongues are meaningless with no semantic or syntactical content, really just baby talk. Here is an example from the work of psychologist Dr. John P. Kildahl, cited in I Once Spoke in Tongues, by Wayne A. Robinson (p. 74): "Abadaba avadaba rebadaba ramanama." This is clearly not a language. The ending "adaba" comes on three of the four "words." In normal language you don't have that.

 

[awaken]

I really thought you'd take a stand here. But you don't seem bothered by this Charismatic blasphemy and heresy, the idea that Christians are little gods like Jesus Christ (and therefore that Christ is not the third person of the trinity), and that born again people are just like Jesus in that they are the incarnation of God just like Jesus.[/quote} You are asking me to take a stand on a teaching I know nothing about!

By refusing to take a stand against such blasphemous heresy, you discredit all that you've been saying about the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. If you were truly walking in the Spirit and filled with the Spirit, you would not have let this chance to magnify Christ go by. The Holy Spirit does not magnify Himself, he always uplifts the Lord Jesus Christ, as the Bible says: "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you" (John 16:13-14).

I do not go searching others doctrines unless they are trying to push it on me.
How can I discredit all that I have said? The Bible is all I need to share the truth...and that is what I have shared!

THe Word does magnify God! Your attack against me is plain for all to see! You are still upset with the ones that stole God's sheep and now I am the only one you can confront about it...just because I believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

You'll write page after page about your doctrine of the manifestations of the Spirit, defending tongues and the like. But you won't stand up for Jesus. You are now clearly discredited.

This is getting sad! When I stand up for the truth in the Bible (which the manifestation is) then I am standing up for Jesus! You refuse His gift! I do not! How do you think that makes Him feel?

 

[DHK]

We have hashed this out already! Go read the thread that was closed!

Didn't really hash it over. You just had to come to the conclusion that you didn't know; had no answer; have to do more research, etc. IOW, you have no answer for this question. It destroys your entire argument for the continuation of the sign gifts. It proves they have ceased.

 

[John of Japan]

You are asking me to take a stand on a teaching I know nothing about!

I do not go searching others doctrines unless they are trying to push it on me. [/QUOTE]I delineated the false doctrine clearly to you. I even gave direct quotes from Charismatic leaders. You refused to repudiate their false doctrines.

How can I discredit all that I have said? The Bible is all I need to share the truth...and that is what I have shared!

You claim to be filled with the Spirit, yet you did not stand up for Jesus. You are clearly discredited. If you are filled with the Spirit you would stand up for Jesus. End of story.

THe Word does magnify God! Your attack against me is plain for all to see! You are still upset with the ones that stole God's sheep and now I am the only one you can confront about it...just because I believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

There is no gift of the Holy Spirit that helps you determine my motives. Please don't try to discern my motives. I assure you that you are wrong about them.

This is getting sad! When I stand up for the truth in the Bible (which the manifestation is) then I am standing up for Jesus! You refuse His gift! I do not! How do you think that makes Him feel?

I know that Christ rejoices when I win souls to Him, when I see Japanese come to Christ. That brings glory to God and is a proof of discipleship. " John 15:8--"Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples." There are 5 statements of the Great Commission, so it is obvious that winning souls, reaching the world for Christ, being His missionary is something that makes Christ rejoice.

But, I'll bite. You intimate that Christ is unhappy when I reject your particular doctrine of the manifestations of the Spirit. (That means of course that I am not allowed to have my own interpretaton of that. I must accept your interpretation or I am a bad Christian.)

So tell me. Where in the Gospels is your particular doctrine of the manifestations of the Spirit given? Where is it in the teachings of Jesus?

 

[John of Japan]

Here are some more quotes about Charismatic false doctrine about Christ.

"Like the Gnostics of old, today's 'faith teachers' stress a metaphysical, mystical, magical Christ. Of course, all orthodox Christians believe in a supernatural Savior, but Gnostics view Jesus as a power-dispensing fetish who gains them access to both mystical and material treasures" ("Who Do TV Preachers Say I Am?" by Walter Martin, in The Agony of Deceit, p. 108).

"In yet another prophecy, Jesus is alleged to have told Copeland, 'Pray to yourself because I'm in yourself and you're in Myself. We are one Spirit, saith the Lord.... Many of you are going to have visitations from the Spirit realm. Many of you will have divinely appointed visions and dreams.... You're just part of the times. It's time for spiritual avctivity to increase" (ibid, 116).

Pray to yourself? Folks, Jesus never told Copeland that, because it would be idolatry and contrary to all Jesus taught!! Copeland is a rank heretic.

 

[12strings]

You call yourself a Charismatic, and therefore are associated with all the heretics within the movement--Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Hagen, Hagin, and even cult leaders like William Branham. This is who you are in bed with. Under the Charismatic movement are all kinds of heretics, unbelievers, frauds, money-grabbing false teachers, false prophets, etc. You are associated with them. They are your friends. You are a Charismatic. So are they.

This is not a valid link...there are many who believe in the continuation of charismatic gifts who are light-years away from these false teachers.

If it were valid, I could say that you call yourself a baptist, therefore you are associated with Fred Phelps and Wesboro Baptist Church in their hatred of homosexuals and their rejoicing in the death of american soldiers. It simply isn't true. A common label does not necessarily mean common beliefs.

 

[awaken]

You claim to be filled with the Spirit, yet you did not stand up for Jesus. You are clearly discredited. If you are filled with the Spirit you would stand up for Jesus. End of story.
There is no gift of the Holy Spirit that helps you determine my motives. Please don't try to discern my motives. I assure you that you are wrong about them.

I know that Christ rejoices when I win souls to Him, when I see Japanese come to Christ. That brings glory to God and is a proof of discipleship. " John 15:8--"Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples." There are 5 statements of the Great Commission, so it is obvious that winning souls, reaching the world for Christ, being His missionary is something that makes Christ rejoice.

But, I'll bite. You intimate that Christ is unhappy when I reject your particular doctrine of the manifestations of the Spirit. (That means of course that I am not allowed to have my own interpretaton of that. I must accept your interpretation or I am a bad Christian.)

So tell me. Where in the Gospels is your particular doctrine of the manifestations of the Spirit given? Where is it in the teachings of Jesus?

I do stand up for Jesus! But not for your agenda!


WHat you guys are missing is that the manifestations are given to the church (believers) for the believer...for the edifying of the church! Not to spread the gospel, but to strengthen the church! When the church is strengthen, encouraged etc. Then they are equipped to go out and walk out the Great Commission. So in that sense they are to spread the gospel..by equiping the saints!

Also note...the Great commission is to make disciples! So we are to teach others what God through the apostles have taught us!

 

[12strings]

I really thought you'd take a stand here. But you don't seem bothered by this Charismatic blasphemy and heresy, the idea that Christians are little gods like Jesus Christ (and therefore that Christ is not the third person of the trinity), and that born again people are just like Jesus in that they are the incarnation of God just like Jesus.

By refusing to take a stand against such blasphemous heresy, you discredit all that you've been saying about the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. If you were truly walking in the Spirit and filled with the Spirit, you would not have let this chance to magnify Christ go by. The Holy Spirit does not magnify Himself, he always uplifts the Lord Jesus Christ, as the Bible says: "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you" (John 16:13-14).

You'll write page after page about your doctrine of the manifestations of the Spirit, defending tongues and the like. But you won't stand up for Jesus. You are now clearly discredited.

John, I don't think you are being fair to Awaken's response here. I'll paste it again for you to examine:

AWAKEN SAID: If your definition of a Charismatic is all that you mentioned then I am not one! But Again I do believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit!

He clearly said that he is NOT ONE of those who believe the heresies you described. What more are you asking for? If I described Baptists as those like Westboro Baptist church that boycots soldiers funerals and chants "thank God for dead soldiers" & "God hates Fags"...and then asked if you were a baptist, you would say, "Well, defined like that, no, I don't think that is an accurate description of all baptists... but I do believe in believers' baptism."

You listed a heresy, asked if he agreed with it. He said "NO." Concerning the others, he said he didn't know enough about them to comment...a very wise answer if he is indeed ignorant of such things... He DID also say:

AWAKEN SAID:Most of what you posted in the OP I know very little about and I am sure it was posted for my benefit.

I am a baptist that believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit...if that puts me in a charismatic side in the worlds eyes..then so be it! I will not deny what is in scriptures for the world or fellow christians to like me.

While the OP was, I think, helpful in pointing out some of the errors that exist within Charismatic circles...it seems that accusing a brother of not standing up for Christ when he clearly repudiated the false doctrine you presented is not being fair to his words. Sorry if that sounds harsh, I'm just being honest.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

John, I don't think you are being fair to Awaken's response here. I'll paste it again for you to examine:

AWAKEN SAID: If your definition of a Charismatic is all that you mentioned then I am not one! But Again I do believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit!

He clearly said that he is NOT ONE of those who believe the heresies you described. What more are you asking for? If I described Baptists as those like Westboro Baptist church that boycots soldiers funerals and chants "thank God for dead soldiers" & "God hates Fags"...and then asked if you were a baptist, you would say, "Well, defined like that, no, I don't think that is an accurate description of all baptists... but I do believe in believers' baptism."

You listed a heresy, asked if he agreed with it. He said "NO." Concerning the others, he said he didn't know enough about them to comment...a very wise answer if he is indeed ignorant of such things... He DID also say:

AWAKEN SAID:Most of what you posted in the OP I know very little about and I am sure it was posted for my benefit.

I am a baptist that believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit...if that puts me in a charismatic side in the worlds eyes..then so be it! I will not deny what is in scriptures for the world or fellow christians to like me.

While the OP was, I think, helpful in pointing out some of the errors that exist within Charismatic circles...it seems that accusing a brother of not standing up for Christ when he clearly repudiated the false doctrine you presented is not being fair to his words. Sorry if that sounds harsh, I'm just being honest.

I agree with your assessment.

And there is also a new denomination of Baptists who believe in the continuation of all the gifts but who are not Pentecostal or Charismatic in doctrine: The Full Gospel Baptist Fellowship.

 

[12strings]

I agree with your assessment.

And there is also a new denomination of Baptists who believe in the continuation of all the gifts but who are not Pentecostal or Charismatic in doctrine: The Full Gospel Baptist Fellowship.

Are you part of this? Would that make you a part of "The Full Gospel Baptist Fellowship Celtic Anabaptist Communion" that would be a mouthful!

I regularly drive by a church called "The Faith, Hope, & Love Church of God in Christ." It makes me glad I just have to say "Calvary Baptist Church." So much easier.

 

[John of Japan]

John, I don't think you are being fair to Awaken's response here. I'll paste it again for you to examine:

AWAKEN SAID: If your definition of a Charismatic is all that you mentioned then I am not one! But Again I do believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit!

He clearly said that he is NOT ONE of those who believe the heresies you described. What more are you asking for? If I described Baptists as those like Westboro Baptist church that boycots soldiers funerals and chants "thank God for dead soldiers" & "God hates Fags"...and then asked if you were a baptist, you would say, "Well, defined like that, no, I don't think that is an accurate description of all baptists... but I do believe in believers' baptism."

You listed a heresy, asked if he agreed with it. He said "NO." Concerning the others, he said he didn't know enough about them to comment...a very wise answer if he is indeed ignorant of such things... He DID also say:

AWAKEN SAID:Most of what you posted in the OP I know very little about and I am sure it was posted for my benefit.

I am a baptist that believe in the manifestation of the Holy Spirit...if that puts me in a charismatic side in the worlds eyes..then so be it! I will not deny what is in scriptures for the world or fellow christians to like me.

While the OP was, I think, helpful in pointing out some of the errors that exist within Charismatic circles...it seems that accusing a brother of not standing up for Christ when he clearly repudiated the false doctrine you presented is not being fair to his words. Sorry if that sounds harsh, I'm just being honest.

Thank you for your honesty. Perhaps I am being harsh. If so, I'll be honest, it is in reaction to awaken twisting my words on thread after thread, and sidestepping honest and straightforward questions. He has just done that again; after impugning my motives and insinuating that Christ was not happy with me because I don't buy his (awaken's) doctrine, he sidestepped an honest question as to where Jesus taught that doctrine. Now, if you want to excuse awaken for impugning my motives and twisting my words (I haven't noticed you rebuking him for that, though others have), fine. I can live with that. God knows my heart.

I'm also reacting to his refusal to actually condemn anything in the Charismatic movement. If we can't condemn people attacking the very incarnation of Jesus Christ, and saying they are incarnate like Him, what is there left to stand for? Awaken has not condemned such egregious teaching as being heresy, he has only said, "I don't agree with that." That is not the same as taking a stand against it. I can say, "I don't agree with the Japanese imperial system," but until I come out in public on that I haven't taken a stand. (There are Christians in Japan who do stand openly and publicly against the imperial system.)

As a Baptist, you stand against Westboro BC, do you not? I hope so. I certainly do. I don't simply disagree with them, I oppose them. Then why cannot awaken openly condemn and oppose the many false doctrines in the Charismatic movement?

 

[12strings]

You refuse His gift! I do not! How do you think that makes Him feel?

I don't think any biblical argument can be made, even from a continuationist perspective, that John, me, and others who do not practice sign gifts are in active rebellion against Jesus in refusing the gift of tongues that he is for some reason desperate for us to have.

Paul clearly says not all speak in tongues...nor have to in order to be a mature, faithful Christian.

 

[John of Japan]

I agree with your assessment.

And there is also a new denomination of Baptists who believe in the continuation of all the gifts but who are not Pentecostal or Charismatic in doctrine: The Full Gospel Baptist Fellowship.

Are you kidding? The very name "Full Gospel" labels them as Charismatic. And look at their distinctives. III says, "We believe in the Divine personhood of the Holy Spirit and His present-day ministry to Believers, including the sovereign distribution of spiritual gifts."

 

[John of Japan]

I do stand up for Jesus! But not for your agenda!

I'd be very surprised if you knew what my agenda is. Do you have the gift of reading minds?

WHat you guys are missing is that the manifestations are given to the church (believers) for the believer...for the edifying of the church! Not to spread the gospel, but to strengthen the church! When the church is strengthen, encouraged etc. Then they are equipped to go out and walk out the Great Commission. So in that sense they are to spread the gospel..by equiping the saints!

So, can you show me where Jesus taught your doctrine of the manifestation of the Spirit or not?

Also note...the Great commission is to make disciples! So we are to teach others what God through the apostles have taught us!

The Great Commission in Matthew says to teach converts what Jesus taught, not what the disciples taught. That is primary. So teach me what Jesus taught about your doctrine.

 

[12strings]

Thank you for your honesty. Perhaps I am being harsh. If so, I'll be honest, it is in reaction to awaken twisting my words on thread after thread, and sidestepping honest and straightforward questions. He has just done that again; after impugning my motives and insinuating that Christ was not happy with me because I don't buy his (awaken's) doctrine, he sidestepped an honest question as to where Jesus taught that doctrine. Now, if you want to excuse awaken for impugning my motives and twisting my words (I haven't noticed you rebuking him for that, though others have), fine. I can live with that. God knows my heart.

I'm also reacting to his refusal to actually condemn anything in the Charismatic movement. If we can't condemn people attacking the very incarnation of Jesus Christ, and saying they are incarnate like Him, what is there left to stand for? Awaken has not condemned such egregious teaching as being heresy, he has only said, "I don't agree with that." That is not the same as taking a stand against it. I can say, "I don't agree with the Japanese imperial system," but until I come out in public on that I haven't taken a stand. (There are Christians in Japan who do stand openly and publicly against the imperial system.)

As a Baptist, you stand against Westboro BC, do you not? I hope so. I certainly do. I don't simply disagree with them, I oppose them. Then why cannot awaken openly condemn and oppose the many false doctrines in the Charismatic movement?

I do think Awaken is mistaken in much of his reasoning, and not correct in his accusations that you and me and non-tongues speakers are somehow refusing what Jesus is trying to give us.

Regarding taking a stand...I think he is just not using the words you want him to use...he has said he does not like that you associate him with those heresies, that he "is not one" of those who believe that way. He is simply not using the "condemn" language. In the past, people have been executed for refusing to "agree" with certain doctrines, so I don't think it really is not as much of a whimp out as you seem to be making it out to be.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Are you part of this? Would that make you a part of "The Full Gospel Baptist Fellowship Celtic Anabaptist Communion" that would be a mouthful!

I regularly drive by a church called "The Faith, Hope, & Love Church of God in Christ." It makes me glad I just have to say "Calvary Baptist Church." So much easier.

No, I am not part of it. I just think it is a very interesting group.

 

[12strings]

Are you kidding? The very name "Full Gospel" labels them as Charismatic. And look at their distinctives. III says, "We believe in the Divine personhood of the Holy Spirit and His present-day ministry to Believers, including the sovereign distribution of spiritual gifts."

Yeah, Michael, that's definitely Charismatic...remember Charismatic is not a specific belief set...only the issue of sign gifts is what defines the word, at least that's what I think is the case.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Are you kidding? The very name "Full Gospel" labels them as Charismatic. And look at their distinctives. III says, "We believe in the Divine personhood of the Holy Spirit and His present-day ministry to Believers, including the sovereign distribution of spiritual gifts."

They do not hold to the Pentecostal/Charismatic interpretation of the baptism of the Holy Spirit apart from and after conversion with initial evidence of tongues. The article you quoted does not prove what you claim it does; it merely asserts what I said: that they believe that all of the gifts mentioned in the NT are in operation today -- in other words, they are not cessationists.