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Charismatic Theology
- Thread starter myreflection26
- Start date
Kathryn S.
New Member
To refer to Jesus Christ as ”that which is perfect” would not be that much different than when He is called the “The Word of God”. The Word of God is pretty gender neutral even though it is Jesus Christ who is the Word, who was at the beginning with God. And is God. John wasn't talking about the bible then either. I see no problem using a gender neutral “that” in this case. It is Jesus Christ who is said to have been made perfect.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation; Hebrews 5:9<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
God Bless
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that obey him the author of eternal salvation; Hebrews 5:9<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
God Bless
myreflection26
New Member
DHK,
<wink> nice try but your interpretation ain't holding water with this chick. The scriptures do not clearify that these gifts ended already, thats what you are seeing that they say but it says something way different here.
Paul is not just giving instruction to the church but he is encouraging them to use these gifts wisely.
Btw..how is it that not forbidding tounges is taken out of context? Please explain that one.
Sue
<wink> nice try but your interpretation ain't holding water with this chick. The scriptures do not clearify that these gifts ended already, thats what you are seeing that they say but it says something way different here.
Paul is not just giving instruction to the church but he is encouraging them to use these gifts wisely.
Btw..how is it that not forbidding tounges is taken out of context? Please explain that one.
Sue
DHK,
Excellent explanation!
Disciple,
Here is another reference of Paul talking about looking into a glass.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>James 1:22 "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24
For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here Paul is clearly refering to the looking glass as the written Word. Just another illustration as to why I believe this meant the Word rather then Jesus. DHK is right, you can not ignore the word "that".
~Lorelei
Excellent explanation!
Disciple,
Here is another reference of Paul talking about looking into a glass.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>James 1:22 "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24
For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here Paul is clearly refering to the looking glass as the written Word. Just another illustration as to why I believe this meant the Word rather then Jesus. DHK is right, you can not ignore the word "that".
~Lorelei
Lorelei and DHK, I agree with both of your post. DHK everything you have written is right on target. Lorelei, when I read your post - this is my reaction = 
Seems to me, you have more of a grasp on this subject than most respected Theologians.
But I certainly respect your humble attitude and loyality to the Word of God, in that you readily will accept any Scripture as proof. You are a dilligent student of His Word.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Chet explained it well in his other thread. Maybe he will be nice enough to give us a refresher course on his Biblical explanation of why he believes they have ceased.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have copied and pasted here my brief belief on why the gifts have ceased. While it is long, it is still brief.
Paul list several gifts of the Spirit in the Book of 1 Corinthians 12. Keep in mind that Corinthians was written primarily to solve church problems. In verse 7 Paul said that the gifts mentioned were to profit withal. There is the:
Word of Wisdom
Word of knowledge
Faith
Healing
Working of Miracles
Prophecy
Discerning of spirits
Tongues
Interpretation of tongues
Now the Paul goes on to say that everyone does not have the same gift, and compares that to the human body which is an illustration of the Body of Christ. But then Paul moves on in the 13th chapter emphasizing three main gifts, these gifts were the gifts the Corinthians were having the most problems with. Then in the 14th chapter Paul had to write a great deal about the biggest problem of all the gift of tongues. Which seems to be the biggest problem “gift” today. I feel that every gift that was mentioned above has ceased. While I will elaborate on it more later, they have ceased because now we have something that the early church believers did not have, and that is the full complete revelation of God, the Bible. And the Bible, by far, can do more for the Body of Christ than any gift of the Sprit. Let’s look briefly at each gift again. Word of Wisdom- while we have people who are full of wisdom today, wisdom is usually gained by experience i.e. older people usually have more wisdom, and by the study of Gods word. What is wisdom? To seem to know what to do and what to say in nearly all situations in life. Without the Word of God, in a time when a new dispensation was being ushered in, the early church relied on this gift. Now the gift of wisdom is gone, but wisdom itself can still be gained by the Word. The same is true for knowledge. The early church needed this gift as well, to know doctrinal issues. Now we can still gain knowledge, but its through the Word of God. Same with faith, our faith now is based on the complete Word of God, but the early Christians needed the gift of faith. While today God can heal through prayer and if it lies within his will, but the early church especially the Jewish believers needed confirmation. The gift of healing was given. The scriptures gives examples of people being sick, i.e. Timothy. Paul told Timothy to take wine for his sickness. Why did not Paul just place his hands on him and heal him? Why didn’t Paul send Timothy to the nearest “faith healer”? Timothy was the last letter Paul wrote, and it goes to show that even as the Words of the Word of God were being penned, so too the gifts were coming to a close. There is another reason the gifts were coming to a close, but I will mention it later. If you go down the rest of the list you will see that all of the gifts were needed in the early church, but not today. We have something greater than these gifts, the Word of God. That brings us to the next chapter where Paul talks to the Corinthians about three primary gifts that were being misused. Ironically the same ones that are so misunderstood today. They were gifts that the Corinthian believers were desiring that would bring them the most acclaim and prestige among their fellow brethren in Christ.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Cor 13:8-12 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1Prophecies shall fail. 2Tongues shall cease, 3knowledge shall vanish away. I want to briefly explain the meanings of each gift before I proceed, because in the Charismatic circle they are so often miss-defined. Prophecy has always meant to speak for God to the people in a way that would reveal future events. The way the Old Testament believers were to know the true from the false was if the prophecy were to come true. I do not believe that this word signifies preaching. I think it means prophetic utterance. Tongues were the ability to speak in a real language. Not in some babble. It would be much like if someone in our church spoke Spanish. No one in my Church would understand what was being said, only the one speaking it. Unless there was someone there who knows Spanish, that would make them the interpreter. Knowledge was just that, it was to know about Gods doctrine. It had nothing to do with some psychic ability.
What were these gifts for? At the time this letter was written the Word of God had not been complete. For an example. In the early Church a question may arise. They may ask, “ Will we see our dear loved ones again?” "Will be be taken up with them?" They could not just look up 1Thess. 5 and find out if they would see their loved ones in heaven. So they would go to the one who had the gift of prophecy and ask them. Then there were those who were lost who did not understand the languages, so the gift of tongues were used to communicate. Perhaps someone did not understand a doctrine, so the gift of knowledge would come into play. Now we have access to these answers through the Word of God. We no longer need these gifts. There is another reason for these gifts, a sign. And one more which had everything to do with the Apostles, I will explain later.
Paul teaches this in parables
Parable one For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. The gifts were given only in part. They knew in part, because they do not have the complete revelation of God. They prophesy in part because they do not have the complete revelation of God. But when that which is perfect is come, then the in part will be in full. Now the big question. What is the “which is perfect is come?” The context will show, as I will also show, that it could only refer to the Revelation of God, the Word of God. Some people think that Paul is referring to Jesus. But Jesus is not in the context. And “that which” could not be referring to a person, especially the person of Jesus Christ. Instead Paul would have written, And He Who. The Word of God is that which is perfect. When the Word is complete then that which is in part shall be done away.
Parable two shows a time frame as to when “that which is perfect” will come.
He says, “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Paul is using an illustration of a time frame by using a life-span:
child........x...X.....*......................................................................man.
Some time in those years Paul teaches us that he is putting away childish things. Just like in the lifetime of this age of the Church the childish things will be put away. Not after Jesus comes back, because then the lifetime of the Church will be over. But it will and must happen within this age, the time of the Church. What are the childish things within the Church age? When Paul was a child he spake as a child = reference to tongues. He understood as a Child = reference to knowledge, and he thought as a Child = reference to prophecy. But when he became a Man those things disappeared. When? Sometime in his lifetime. Just like sometime in the Church age those things were to disappear. When?
Parable three Back to “that which is perfect” For now we see through a glass,
darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. This is a reference back to the Word of God. Scripture will interpret Scripture. We don’t have to guess what the “glass” means. Jesus is not the glass. The glass is the Word:
2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (KJV)
James 1:22-25 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: Just as Paul described For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being
not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
(KJV)
Now remember about the perfection? Knowing only in part, but then known?
2 Tim 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all
good works.
(KJV)
Peter also wrote of the greatest prophecy. He tells us about an experience his eyes saw, and ears heard. This experience he had was on the mount of transfiguration. Yet he said, we have a greater prophecy The Word of God. All this is found in 2 Peter chapter one. I place the Bible above ALL experiences. The Bible is way up on a pedestal for me. I feel it is the greatest of all the words in all the World. It is powerful. It does more for a person, than any thing, experience, gift, or what my eyes see, what my ears hear what my body feels. While the gifts of the Spirit were communicated through people who could not be trusted while the Word of God CAN be
trusted without any question. It is awesome. I once talked to a woman who told me she did not care about what the Bible teaches, she knew her experiences could be trusted.
Heb 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged
sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. (NKJ)
Paul goes one step further in his quest to correct the Corinthian church. He must explain the most misunderstood gift of all, and today it is still so misunderstood. But even worse, I believe that Satan has deceived many into thinking they are speaking a language for God, when the language they are speaking is not from God. And Satan has disguised this using “Biblical terminology”. Just how often is the gift of tongues referred to in Scripture? Mark 16. Acts 2,10,19 those are the historical accounts. Then doctrinal 1Cor 12,13,14. That is it. David did not have the gift, Samual did not have it. Abraham, Joseph, Ezra, Esther, or any Old Testament Saint had this gift. This brings us to the main reason this gift was given. It was a sign to the Jews. The Jews require a sign.
1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: The new
dispensation of grace (church age) was being ushered in, and God used these gifts as a
sign to the Jews. God always used signs for the Jews. Remember when the Jews asked
for a sign from Jesus to prove He was who He claimed to be. I thought plenty of signs were given already. But they sought more. Jesus gave them their request, as He rose from the dead. It still was not enough. This new dispensation was a “new doctrine” to them.
Acts 17:19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what
this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
(KJV)
These Jews need confirmation of this new doctrine. This brings me to my last point The sign gifts were given to only certain people, and I believe they were only given to the Apostles. Not just the twelve (Paul replacing Judas), but to those who qualified for this office. How did one qualify?
Acts 1:21-22 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from
us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
(KJV)
They had to be personally aquantied with the Lord's ministry from John's baptism to his
assention. They had to have a first hand account. I do not believe that it is possible to have apostles today. They are all gone. With that said, lets look at the meaning of apostle:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 652 apostolos (ap-os'-tol-os); from 649; a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ ["apostle"] (with miraculous powers): KJV-- apostle, messenger, he that is sent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now who were given the sign gifts?
Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. (KJV)
Now lets read this passage from Hebrews:
Heb 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
(KJV)
As the Apostles died, so too the gifts. And at the same time the Word of God was being
completed, so too the gifts.
I would then like to move on to the 14th chapter of 1 Corinthians. I pray you all forgive me of the length of this post. Paul declares in Vs one that he would rather they all prophesied rather than speak in tongues. He confirms that thought in Vs 19. Paul would rather you speak 5 regular words than 10 thousand different languages? Wow!. But the reason is clear. Tongues being a real language Vs 11, Acts 2 also confirms this, the only person who would understand a word your saying would be God and yourself. Vs 2. Its only sounds Vs 6, and its not at all edifying to the Church Vs 4. Otherwise it only edifies yourself. Vs 3, and that the point Paul is making, don’t edify yourself. Now I believe that it is possible for the one speaking in the tongue to also interpret that same tongue. Read Vs 13. Otherwise the Corinthians were to have another who could interpret Vs 27. And lets not overlook one last detail, Paul told the women not to speak in tongues. Awhile back I took my Church through the 14 chapter of Corinthians answering every single verse. No where, does this chapter endorse the gift of tongues today. But it corrected the Corinthian Church of its proper use, until it ceased as it was ceasing at the very time the letter was being written.
With love,
Chet
Seems to me, you have more of a grasp on this subject than most respected Theologians.
But I certainly respect your humble attitude and loyality to the Word of God, in that you readily will accept any Scripture as proof. You are a dilligent student of His Word.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Chet explained it well in his other thread. Maybe he will be nice enough to give us a refresher course on his Biblical explanation of why he believes they have ceased.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have copied and pasted here my brief belief on why the gifts have ceased. While it is long, it is still brief.
Paul list several gifts of the Spirit in the Book of 1 Corinthians 12. Keep in mind that Corinthians was written primarily to solve church problems. In verse 7 Paul said that the gifts mentioned were to profit withal. There is the:
Word of Wisdom
Word of knowledge
Faith
Healing
Working of Miracles
Prophecy
Discerning of spirits
Tongues
Interpretation of tongues
Now the Paul goes on to say that everyone does not have the same gift, and compares that to the human body which is an illustration of the Body of Christ. But then Paul moves on in the 13th chapter emphasizing three main gifts, these gifts were the gifts the Corinthians were having the most problems with. Then in the 14th chapter Paul had to write a great deal about the biggest problem of all the gift of tongues. Which seems to be the biggest problem “gift” today. I feel that every gift that was mentioned above has ceased. While I will elaborate on it more later, they have ceased because now we have something that the early church believers did not have, and that is the full complete revelation of God, the Bible. And the Bible, by far, can do more for the Body of Christ than any gift of the Sprit. Let’s look briefly at each gift again. Word of Wisdom- while we have people who are full of wisdom today, wisdom is usually gained by experience i.e. older people usually have more wisdom, and by the study of Gods word. What is wisdom? To seem to know what to do and what to say in nearly all situations in life. Without the Word of God, in a time when a new dispensation was being ushered in, the early church relied on this gift. Now the gift of wisdom is gone, but wisdom itself can still be gained by the Word. The same is true for knowledge. The early church needed this gift as well, to know doctrinal issues. Now we can still gain knowledge, but its through the Word of God. Same with faith, our faith now is based on the complete Word of God, but the early Christians needed the gift of faith. While today God can heal through prayer and if it lies within his will, but the early church especially the Jewish believers needed confirmation. The gift of healing was given. The scriptures gives examples of people being sick, i.e. Timothy. Paul told Timothy to take wine for his sickness. Why did not Paul just place his hands on him and heal him? Why didn’t Paul send Timothy to the nearest “faith healer”? Timothy was the last letter Paul wrote, and it goes to show that even as the Words of the Word of God were being penned, so too the gifts were coming to a close. There is another reason the gifts were coming to a close, but I will mention it later. If you go down the rest of the list you will see that all of the gifts were needed in the early church, but not today. We have something greater than these gifts, the Word of God. That brings us to the next chapter where Paul talks to the Corinthians about three primary gifts that were being misused. Ironically the same ones that are so misunderstood today. They were gifts that the Corinthian believers were desiring that would bring them the most acclaim and prestige among their fellow brethren in Christ.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Cor 13:8-12 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1Prophecies shall fail. 2Tongues shall cease, 3knowledge shall vanish away. I want to briefly explain the meanings of each gift before I proceed, because in the Charismatic circle they are so often miss-defined. Prophecy has always meant to speak for God to the people in a way that would reveal future events. The way the Old Testament believers were to know the true from the false was if the prophecy were to come true. I do not believe that this word signifies preaching. I think it means prophetic utterance. Tongues were the ability to speak in a real language. Not in some babble. It would be much like if someone in our church spoke Spanish. No one in my Church would understand what was being said, only the one speaking it. Unless there was someone there who knows Spanish, that would make them the interpreter. Knowledge was just that, it was to know about Gods doctrine. It had nothing to do with some psychic ability.
What were these gifts for? At the time this letter was written the Word of God had not been complete. For an example. In the early Church a question may arise. They may ask, “ Will we see our dear loved ones again?” "Will be be taken up with them?" They could not just look up 1Thess. 5 and find out if they would see their loved ones in heaven. So they would go to the one who had the gift of prophecy and ask them. Then there were those who were lost who did not understand the languages, so the gift of tongues were used to communicate. Perhaps someone did not understand a doctrine, so the gift of knowledge would come into play. Now we have access to these answers through the Word of God. We no longer need these gifts. There is another reason for these gifts, a sign. And one more which had everything to do with the Apostles, I will explain later.
Paul teaches this in parables
Parable one For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. The gifts were given only in part. They knew in part, because they do not have the complete revelation of God. They prophesy in part because they do not have the complete revelation of God. But when that which is perfect is come, then the in part will be in full. Now the big question. What is the “which is perfect is come?” The context will show, as I will also show, that it could only refer to the Revelation of God, the Word of God. Some people think that Paul is referring to Jesus. But Jesus is not in the context. And “that which” could not be referring to a person, especially the person of Jesus Christ. Instead Paul would have written, And He Who. The Word of God is that which is perfect. When the Word is complete then that which is in part shall be done away.
Parable two shows a time frame as to when “that which is perfect” will come.
He says, “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Paul is using an illustration of a time frame by using a life-span:
child........x...X.....*......................................................................man.
Some time in those years Paul teaches us that he is putting away childish things. Just like in the lifetime of this age of the Church the childish things will be put away. Not after Jesus comes back, because then the lifetime of the Church will be over. But it will and must happen within this age, the time of the Church. What are the childish things within the Church age? When Paul was a child he spake as a child = reference to tongues. He understood as a Child = reference to knowledge, and he thought as a Child = reference to prophecy. But when he became a Man those things disappeared. When? Sometime in his lifetime. Just like sometime in the Church age those things were to disappear. When?
Parable three Back to “that which is perfect” For now we see through a glass,
darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. This is a reference back to the Word of God. Scripture will interpret Scripture. We don’t have to guess what the “glass” means. Jesus is not the glass. The glass is the Word:
2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (KJV)
James 1:22-25 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: Just as Paul described For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being
not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
(KJV)
Now remember about the perfection? Knowing only in part, but then known?
2 Tim 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all
good works.
(KJV)
Peter also wrote of the greatest prophecy. He tells us about an experience his eyes saw, and ears heard. This experience he had was on the mount of transfiguration. Yet he said, we have a greater prophecy The Word of God. All this is found in 2 Peter chapter one. I place the Bible above ALL experiences. The Bible is way up on a pedestal for me. I feel it is the greatest of all the words in all the World. It is powerful. It does more for a person, than any thing, experience, gift, or what my eyes see, what my ears hear what my body feels. While the gifts of the Spirit were communicated through people who could not be trusted while the Word of God CAN be
trusted without any question. It is awesome. I once talked to a woman who told me she did not care about what the Bible teaches, she knew her experiences could be trusted.
Heb 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged
sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. (NKJ)
Paul goes one step further in his quest to correct the Corinthian church. He must explain the most misunderstood gift of all, and today it is still so misunderstood. But even worse, I believe that Satan has deceived many into thinking they are speaking a language for God, when the language they are speaking is not from God. And Satan has disguised this using “Biblical terminology”. Just how often is the gift of tongues referred to in Scripture? Mark 16. Acts 2,10,19 those are the historical accounts. Then doctrinal 1Cor 12,13,14. That is it. David did not have the gift, Samual did not have it. Abraham, Joseph, Ezra, Esther, or any Old Testament Saint had this gift. This brings us to the main reason this gift was given. It was a sign to the Jews. The Jews require a sign.
1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: The new
dispensation of grace (church age) was being ushered in, and God used these gifts as a
sign to the Jews. God always used signs for the Jews. Remember when the Jews asked
for a sign from Jesus to prove He was who He claimed to be. I thought plenty of signs were given already. But they sought more. Jesus gave them their request, as He rose from the dead. It still was not enough. This new dispensation was a “new doctrine” to them.
Acts 17:19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what
this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
(KJV)
These Jews need confirmation of this new doctrine. This brings me to my last point The sign gifts were given to only certain people, and I believe they were only given to the Apostles. Not just the twelve (Paul replacing Judas), but to those who qualified for this office. How did one qualify?
Acts 1:21-22 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from
us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
(KJV)
They had to be personally aquantied with the Lord's ministry from John's baptism to his
assention. They had to have a first hand account. I do not believe that it is possible to have apostles today. They are all gone. With that said, lets look at the meaning of apostle:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 652 apostolos (ap-os'-tol-os); from 649; a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ ["apostle"] (with miraculous powers): KJV-- apostle, messenger, he that is sent.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now who were given the sign gifts?
Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. (KJV)
Now lets read this passage from Hebrews:
Heb 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
(KJV)
As the Apostles died, so too the gifts. And at the same time the Word of God was being
completed, so too the gifts.
I would then like to move on to the 14th chapter of 1 Corinthians. I pray you all forgive me of the length of this post. Paul declares in Vs one that he would rather they all prophesied rather than speak in tongues. He confirms that thought in Vs 19. Paul would rather you speak 5 regular words than 10 thousand different languages? Wow!. But the reason is clear. Tongues being a real language Vs 11, Acts 2 also confirms this, the only person who would understand a word your saying would be God and yourself. Vs 2. Its only sounds Vs 6, and its not at all edifying to the Church Vs 4. Otherwise it only edifies yourself. Vs 3, and that the point Paul is making, don’t edify yourself. Now I believe that it is possible for the one speaking in the tongue to also interpret that same tongue. Read Vs 13. Otherwise the Corinthians were to have another who could interpret Vs 27. And lets not overlook one last detail, Paul told the women not to speak in tongues. Awhile back I took my Church through the 14 chapter of Corinthians answering every single verse. No where, does this chapter endorse the gift of tongues today. But it corrected the Corinthian Church of its proper use, until it ceased as it was ceasing at the very time the letter was being written.
With love,
Chet
Chet, thanks so much for sharing that again! You know this is the post that actually helped to change my opinion on the matter. I always said all the gifts existed because the Bible said so, but I knew and could tell that the practices of those gifts today were not being done in accordance with scripture. Every time these gifts were used in the New Testament there was a specific reason for it, it even gives those reasons for tongues. I do not see any specific reason for the gifts being practiced today and that confused me. But I wasn't going to just ignore scripture.
Until I read this post, I had never heard it explained biblically. Then I still did not believe it persay. I have my own copy of this post and actually the entire thread that it was in. I have been searching the scriptures on my own and have come to believe this more and more each day. I am still open to changing my mind if I can find something in the scripture that will show me it's wrong, but so far I have not.
So thanks for sharing this with us again!!
Thanks for your kind words. I do not think I am anywhere near a theologian though! That aside, I just wanted to make one clarification.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chet:
But I certainly respect your humble attitude and loyality to the Word of God, in that you readily will accept any Scripture as proof. You are a dilligent student of His Word.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I will readily accept any scripture taken within it's proper context. But I am sure you meant that.
Keep on sharing the Truth brother! There are actually some like me who are listening and letting the Holy Spirit guide them into all Truth. (granted I am sure it will be a long journey, but I am enjoying the ride!)
~Lorelei
Until I read this post, I had never heard it explained biblically. Then I still did not believe it persay. I have my own copy of this post and actually the entire thread that it was in. I have been searching the scriptures on my own and have come to believe this more and more each day. I am still open to changing my mind if I can find something in the scripture that will show me it's wrong, but so far I have not.
So thanks for sharing this with us again!!
Thanks for your kind words. I do not think I am anywhere near a theologian though! That aside, I just wanted to make one clarification.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chet:
But I certainly respect your humble attitude and loyality to the Word of God, in that you readily will accept any Scripture as proof. You are a dilligent student of His Word.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I will readily accept any scripture taken within it's proper context. But I am sure you meant that.
Keep on sharing the Truth brother! There are actually some like me who are listening and letting the Holy Spirit guide them into all Truth. (granted I am sure it will be a long journey, but I am enjoying the ride!)
~Lorelei
Lorelei,
I too have very much appreciated the way you have handled the subject. Not a scholar? I see a humble submission to the will of the Father, and Jesus said, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine..." John 7:17. Obedience is the key to understanding--NOT SEMINARY.
My wife is a former Pentecostal. Observing the trends she said in ten years there will cease to be any difference between the Southern Baptists and the Pentecostals. I believe she is right.
I too have very much appreciated the way you have handled the subject. Not a scholar? I see a humble submission to the will of the Father, and Jesus said, "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine..." John 7:17. Obedience is the key to understanding--NOT SEMINARY.
My wife is a former Pentecostal. Observing the trends she said in ten years there will cease to be any difference between the Southern Baptists and the Pentecostals. I believe she is right.
from Sue: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>obviously tounges is least of all gifts, used to edify the church and ones self as scripturally noted in 1 Cor. 14<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sue, I humbly disagree.
In understanding scripture, one of the most unused questions is "why?"
Such as, why did Paul write a letter to the Christians in Corinth? Answer: They were doing things wrong.
See, the greatest mis-use of 1 Corinthians 14 as a justification for speaking in tongues, is that we forget that Paul was rebuking the Corinthians for doing it wrong.
Sue, I humbly, humbly offer this for you to think about. If you disagree with what I've just said, please say so--and then say why.
And there is more, if you're interested in discussing it....
In understanding scripture, one of the most unused questions is "why?"
Such as, why did Paul write a letter to the Christians in Corinth? Answer: They were doing things wrong.
See, the greatest mis-use of 1 Corinthians 14 as a justification for speaking in tongues, is that we forget that Paul was rebuking the Corinthians for doing it wrong.
Sue, I humbly, humbly offer this for you to think about. If you disagree with what I've just said, please say so--and then say why.
And there is more, if you're interested in discussing it....
myreflection26
New Member
Don,
I'm not completely sure I understand what you were saying in the prior post. Could you please explain a bit more?
I guess my confusion in what you are trying to say is the connection of the quote you drug down of mine and how it relates to what you disagree with. I'm cool with hearing you out, I just need to know so I can grasp your thoughts. Thanks.
Sue
I'm not completely sure I understand what you were saying in the prior post. Could you please explain a bit more?
I guess my confusion in what you are trying to say is the connection of the quote you drug down of mine and how it relates to what you disagree with. I'm cool with hearing you out, I just need to know so I can grasp your thoughts. Thanks.
Sue
Aaron,
Thanks so much for your kind words. The encouragement was certainly needed, but I don't like to put the emphasis on myself. You are right, obedience is the key. On my own I know nothing, but God through His Word and His Spirit are guiding me to the Truth. As I said before, I have a long way to go before I understand it all (like that ever happens for any of us here on earth! *hehe*), but each day I learn more and more.
You mentioned that your wife used to be Pentecostal. I have family that have and still follow a lot of these teachings and that is one reason that I am/was hesitant to accept this. I am not out to "prove" I am right and they are wrong. I am out to find which one is Truth.
According to them, I am not saved because I have not spoken in tongues, therefore I felt the need to research this thoroughly. I wanted to know one thing, Was I indeed saved?
See, they say you must be "baptized with the Spirit to be saved", and they are correct. Without the Spirit no one can call Jesus Lord. If you do not have the Spirit, you are indeed not saved. But, if I got the Holy Spirit at the moment I believed, then why did they not get it at the same time? What is thier "Spirit Baptism" all about? So I began to research more deeply.
Now I question if indeed their doctrine is at all biblical. Granted they can quote scripture to make thier claims, but is it in context? Is the gospel they are claiming the same one that was preached by Paul?
So, I come seeking answers. I still encourage those who beleive this doctrine (and it varies widely among themselves) to give me solid scriptural evidence for it. So far, I have gotten none. I get a few scriptures (if that), but when challenged to back them up within context, or some hard question comes thier way, they either leave the conversation never to come back or just "know" because of thier experience. I don't buy that. If it is of God, then His Word will confirm it. Experience can be from God, but not in contradiction to His Word.
Ok, I did not mean to ramble, I just wanted that to be said, so that those who do not agree with me will at least understand where I am coming from. I pray that each of us will search His Word diligently to find the Truth. The Holy Spirit will guide us into all Truth, but not outside the Written Word. We have the Word for a reason, we must use it.
~Lorelei
Thanks so much for your kind words. The encouragement was certainly needed, but I don't like to put the emphasis on myself. You are right, obedience is the key. On my own I know nothing, but God through His Word and His Spirit are guiding me to the Truth. As I said before, I have a long way to go before I understand it all (like that ever happens for any of us here on earth! *hehe*), but each day I learn more and more.
You mentioned that your wife used to be Pentecostal. I have family that have and still follow a lot of these teachings and that is one reason that I am/was hesitant to accept this. I am not out to "prove" I am right and they are wrong. I am out to find which one is Truth.
According to them, I am not saved because I have not spoken in tongues, therefore I felt the need to research this thoroughly. I wanted to know one thing, Was I indeed saved?
See, they say you must be "baptized with the Spirit to be saved", and they are correct. Without the Spirit no one can call Jesus Lord. If you do not have the Spirit, you are indeed not saved. But, if I got the Holy Spirit at the moment I believed, then why did they not get it at the same time? What is thier "Spirit Baptism" all about? So I began to research more deeply.
Now I question if indeed their doctrine is at all biblical. Granted they can quote scripture to make thier claims, but is it in context? Is the gospel they are claiming the same one that was preached by Paul?
So, I come seeking answers. I still encourage those who beleive this doctrine (and it varies widely among themselves) to give me solid scriptural evidence for it. So far, I have gotten none. I get a few scriptures (if that), but when challenged to back them up within context, or some hard question comes thier way, they either leave the conversation never to come back or just "know" because of thier experience. I don't buy that. If it is of God, then His Word will confirm it. Experience can be from God, but not in contradiction to His Word.
Ok, I did not mean to ramble, I just wanted that to be said, so that those who do not agree with me will at least understand where I am coming from. I pray that each of us will search His Word diligently to find the Truth. The Holy Spirit will guide us into all Truth, but not outside the Written Word. We have the Word for a reason, we must use it.
~Lorelei
Sue, thank you for not taking me wrong. I'm not in the business of changing people's minds; only God can do that.
The first thing to consider is, why did Paul write a letter to the Corinthians? Answer: They were doing things wrong.
This is evident from the references: The church of Corinth had divisions that were splitting the church (chapter 1); an open fornicator in their midst, and they weren't doing anything about it (chapter 5); hanging out with unbelievers and those that sacrificed to idols (chapter 8; not a problem in itself, but a warning about being a stumbling block to others); and there are more.
With this in mind, the context of chapter 14 is NOT an instruction to speak in tongues; rather, it is an indication that the church of Corinth was doing it wrong.
Your statement: "used to edify the church"
Yet chapter 14, verse 2 says that speaking in an unknown tongue doesn't edify others. Verse 4 says that speaking in an unknown tongue edifies the individual, but prophesying edifieth the church.
Through these two verse, your statement is shown to be in error.
Verse 22 tells us that speaking in tongues is for the unbeliever, NOT the church full of believers.
I offer this to you with as humble a spirit as I can muster. Please consider carefully, and let me know if you'd like to discuss more (because there is more).
The first thing to consider is, why did Paul write a letter to the Corinthians? Answer: They were doing things wrong.
This is evident from the references: The church of Corinth had divisions that were splitting the church (chapter 1); an open fornicator in their midst, and they weren't doing anything about it (chapter 5); hanging out with unbelievers and those that sacrificed to idols (chapter 8; not a problem in itself, but a warning about being a stumbling block to others); and there are more.
With this in mind, the context of chapter 14 is NOT an instruction to speak in tongues; rather, it is an indication that the church of Corinth was doing it wrong.
Your statement: "used to edify the church"
Yet chapter 14, verse 2 says that speaking in an unknown tongue doesn't edify others. Verse 4 says that speaking in an unknown tongue edifies the individual, but prophesying edifieth the church.
Through these two verse, your statement is shown to be in error.
Verse 22 tells us that speaking in tongues is for the unbeliever, NOT the church full of believers.
I offer this to you with as humble a spirit as I can muster. Please consider carefully, and let me know if you'd like to discuss more (because there is more).
myreflection26
New Member
Don,
Its ok, I'm not offended so you don't have to "walk on eggs" around me hehe.
I was looking in 1Cor. 14 to see what you were saying, yes you are correct about those particular verses, however, in verse 5 of 1 Cor 14 it says...
I would like that every one of you speak in tounges, but I would rather you have prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than than one who speaks in tounges, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
From this, I see that it truely does edify the church when used properly.
Sue
Its ok, I'm not offended so you don't have to "walk on eggs" around me hehe.
I was looking in 1Cor. 14 to see what you were saying, yes you are correct about those particular verses, however, in verse 5 of 1 Cor 14 it says...
I would like that every one of you speak in tounges, but I would rather you have prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than than one who speaks in tounges, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
From this, I see that it truely does edify the church when used properly.
Sue
"so that the church may be edified" This is a classic example of pulling Scripture out of its context to fits one's already made-up mind to do what they want to do. Or to fit their own presuppositions. Yes, tongues are so the church may be edified, IF:
1. It is a real tongue (an actual spoken foreign language.
2. It is spoken by a man. Women are not permitted to speak in the church. Sue, you are out of order.
3. If there is an interpreter.
4. If there are unbelieving Jews present.
Those are some of the conditions that must be met if the church may be edified. Prophesying therefore is a greater gift. Sue, do you meet these conditions?
DHK
1. It is a real tongue (an actual spoken foreign language.
2. It is spoken by a man. Women are not permitted to speak in the church. Sue, you are out of order.
3. If there is an interpreter.
4. If there are unbelieving Jews present.
Those are some of the conditions that must be met if the church may be edified. Prophesying therefore is a greater gift. Sue, do you meet these conditions?
DHK
Some very interesting logic being tossed around here.
Basic point: If you start with a fallacy, you will not finish with the truth.
Fallacy 1 and 2: The gifts are temporary; that is, only given until we have the canon.
The problem that cessationists have is that they consider these true statements, but they have no revelational foundation for this belief. It is like this; I say it, so it is so.
When did God, the Holy Spirit, say that the gifts are temporary? Do we agree with the Apostle Paul that the Holy Spirit is the One Who gives the gifts?
1CO 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. [8] To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, [9] to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, [10] to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. [11] All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
JUST AS HE DETERMINES.
The Apostle Paul speaks with great clarity about the gifts, and their functioning in the Body of Christ, the Church. There seems to NOT be any clear revelational teaching that the gifts have ceased. Cessationism is an interpretational doctrine; that is, figured out by man.
Who is the apostle of cessationism? Who is the man that God gave this doctrine to? do we want to be followers of that man? For those cessationists living today, do they know the man they are disciples of in regard to the doctrine of cessationism?
The "doctrine" of cessationism is very well thought out, and documented. It is, though, an illegitimate doctrine. That is, no one that I know of can show the parentage of this doctrine with clarity.
So, also, the canon doctrine. These two go together, and flow together. But for those who adhere to the cessationism doctrine and the canon doctrine, they cannot show that God the Holy Spirit spoke with clarity and instituted these two doctrines. They started somewhere,somehow, and grew into mature thoughts, but who, where, and how they started is unknown.
I personally believe that we need a revelational basis for our belief systems, and not primarily an interpretational basis.
I believe it is necessary for cessationists to give some sourcing to their belief that the gifts are temporary, and that the canon was closed. Not just, I said it, so it is so.
And when you give your sourcing, make sure you give God the credit for saying what you say. Because if God didn't say it, then the source is either man or the devil.
Did God say the entire and complete doctrine of cessationism? When, where, to whom?
After we have documented these two points, then we can continue with the rest of the discussion. But don't ask me to address points far down the line, when you start with a fallacy, or two.
Basic point: If you start with a fallacy, you will not finish with the truth.
Fallacy 1 and 2: The gifts are temporary; that is, only given until we have the canon.
The problem that cessationists have is that they consider these true statements, but they have no revelational foundation for this belief. It is like this; I say it, so it is so.
When did God, the Holy Spirit, say that the gifts are temporary? Do we agree with the Apostle Paul that the Holy Spirit is the One Who gives the gifts?
1CO 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. [8] To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, [9] to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, [10] to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. [11] All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
JUST AS HE DETERMINES.
The Apostle Paul speaks with great clarity about the gifts, and their functioning in the Body of Christ, the Church. There seems to NOT be any clear revelational teaching that the gifts have ceased. Cessationism is an interpretational doctrine; that is, figured out by man.
Who is the apostle of cessationism? Who is the man that God gave this doctrine to? do we want to be followers of that man? For those cessationists living today, do they know the man they are disciples of in regard to the doctrine of cessationism?
The "doctrine" of cessationism is very well thought out, and documented. It is, though, an illegitimate doctrine. That is, no one that I know of can show the parentage of this doctrine with clarity.
So, also, the canon doctrine. These two go together, and flow together. But for those who adhere to the cessationism doctrine and the canon doctrine, they cannot show that God the Holy Spirit spoke with clarity and instituted these two doctrines. They started somewhere,somehow, and grew into mature thoughts, but who, where, and how they started is unknown.
I personally believe that we need a revelational basis for our belief systems, and not primarily an interpretational basis.
I believe it is necessary for cessationists to give some sourcing to their belief that the gifts are temporary, and that the canon was closed. Not just, I said it, so it is so.
And when you give your sourcing, make sure you give God the credit for saying what you say. Because if God didn't say it, then the source is either man or the devil.
Did God say the entire and complete doctrine of cessationism? When, where, to whom?
After we have documented these two points, then we can continue with the rest of the discussion. But don't ask me to address points far down the line, when you start with a fallacy, or two.
Kathryn S.
New Member
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (1 Corinthians 13:10)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://www.wotruth.com/down-9.htm
This site gives the best explanation of this passage I can find. It explains “that which is perfect” is our own spiritual maturity brought to perfection. Each individual will be made complete at Christ's coming; then we will be glorified. It also explains in detail why that which is perfect is not the completion of the canon of the bible. These are just a few excerpts.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The saints are the ones being matured, or brought to perfection. The Word of God plays a vital and in dispensable role in that process, as well as various other ministries performed through members of the body of Christ. There is, however, a unique difference between the Word itself and the various gifts employed by the Spirit in the body. The Word of God "lives and abides forever" (1 Pet 1:23). The other means, wrought through vessels of clay, will have no further use when the saints are glorified. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I only state this to underscore that all believers know spiritual gifts are, by their very nature, temporary. No one is to treat them as though they were eternal. And if they are not eternal, they cannot be superior, or yield the greatest benefit. The "Gospel" is eternal (Rev 14:6). Our "life" in Christ is eternal (John 17:2). The "Word" of God itself is eternal (Matt 24:35). For the believer, glory is "eternal" 2 Tim 2:10). The "things" upon which faith focuses are also "eternal" (2 Cor 4:17-18). The bodies we will possess in the resurrection are "eternal" (2 Cor 5:1). The "purpose" of God is "eternal" (Eph 3:11), as well as the "King" Who is implementing it, our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Tim 1:17). When the perfect comes, none of these things will be affected, nor will they pass away or become useless. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The "perfect" will come when these "eternal" realities are realized in their fulness. The Scriptural canon is a means to preparing for that eventuality, but it is certainly not the eventuality itself. To refer to the compilation of Scripture as "when the perfect is come," falls far short of expressing the intent of this text. One of the earliest attempts to canonize Scripture was made by second century reformer Marcion. He cast the die for the Muratorian Canon of 170 A.D. Was that when "the perfect" came? That canon contained the essential New Testament as we know it. These books were actually composed over a mere half century--yet it took nearly a century to compile them. What is more arresting, Marcion's "canon" lacked "perfection," not including Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, and 3 John.
It is all too burdensome to my spirit, lacking any semblance of Divine reasoning. The "completed canon" view has not built up the saints. It has not strengthened the faith or hope of the people of God, nor has it increased their longing to be ever with the Lord. That circumstance is a resounding testimony as to its origin. it came from man, not from God. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Disciple 2001 ]
This site gives the best explanation of this passage I can find. It explains “that which is perfect” is our own spiritual maturity brought to perfection. Each individual will be made complete at Christ's coming; then we will be glorified. It also explains in detail why that which is perfect is not the completion of the canon of the bible. These are just a few excerpts.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The saints are the ones being matured, or brought to perfection. The Word of God plays a vital and in dispensable role in that process, as well as various other ministries performed through members of the body of Christ. There is, however, a unique difference between the Word itself and the various gifts employed by the Spirit in the body. The Word of God "lives and abides forever" (1 Pet 1:23). The other means, wrought through vessels of clay, will have no further use when the saints are glorified. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I only state this to underscore that all believers know spiritual gifts are, by their very nature, temporary. No one is to treat them as though they were eternal. And if they are not eternal, they cannot be superior, or yield the greatest benefit. The "Gospel" is eternal (Rev 14:6). Our "life" in Christ is eternal (John 17:2). The "Word" of God itself is eternal (Matt 24:35). For the believer, glory is "eternal" 2 Tim 2:10). The "things" upon which faith focuses are also "eternal" (2 Cor 4:17-18). The bodies we will possess in the resurrection are "eternal" (2 Cor 5:1). The "purpose" of God is "eternal" (Eph 3:11), as well as the "King" Who is implementing it, our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Tim 1:17). When the perfect comes, none of these things will be affected, nor will they pass away or become useless. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The "perfect" will come when these "eternal" realities are realized in their fulness. The Scriptural canon is a means to preparing for that eventuality, but it is certainly not the eventuality itself. To refer to the compilation of Scripture as "when the perfect is come," falls far short of expressing the intent of this text. One of the earliest attempts to canonize Scripture was made by second century reformer Marcion. He cast the die for the Muratorian Canon of 170 A.D. Was that when "the perfect" came? That canon contained the essential New Testament as we know it. These books were actually composed over a mere half century--yet it took nearly a century to compile them. What is more arresting, Marcion's "canon" lacked "perfection," not including Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, and 3 John.
It is all too burdensome to my spirit, lacking any semblance of Divine reasoning. The "completed canon" view has not built up the saints. It has not strengthened the faith or hope of the people of God, nor has it increased their longing to be ever with the Lord. That circumstance is a resounding testimony as to its origin. it came from man, not from God. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Disciple 2001 ]
DHK,
in response to:
qwerty,
Have you read all the posts?
Yes, I have read them. Years ago I could have written them.
The Apostle Paul did NOT write the entire and complete doctrine of cessationism as it is understood today. The cessationist hides behind an obscure verse in 1 Cor. 13, that there is considerable controversy about.
My last post still awaits an answer. Show me who is the apostle of cessationism. Who wrote all this down, and developed it. When did they do it.
The Apostle Paul did not write the doctrine of cessationism. Who did?
in response to:
qwerty,
Have you read all the posts?
Yes, I have read them. Years ago I could have written them.
The Apostle Paul did NOT write the entire and complete doctrine of cessationism as it is understood today. The cessationist hides behind an obscure verse in 1 Cor. 13, that there is considerable controversy about.
My last post still awaits an answer. Show me who is the apostle of cessationism. Who wrote all this down, and developed it. When did they do it.
The Apostle Paul did not write the doctrine of cessationism. Who did?
Thanks, Sue. I know that sometimes, some of us (including myself) can get a little harsh...so far, I haven't seen that here.
I still fall back to verse 22. If tongues are a sign for unbelievers, as evidenced in their first recorded use back in Acts 2, why does a church full of believers need them? Are there those in the church that are unsaved? In which case, isn't the use of a tongue directed at those individuals, and not at people such as yourself who profess to be saved?
I believe I read where you stated that you have the gift of tongues, or have used the gift of tongues; to whom did you use it? Believers or unbelievers? If it was to those who you think are believers, then you are in violation of how Paul says the gift is to be used.
Or, perhaps you only thought they were believers?....
After consideration of this point, I ask you to consider: What is the gift of tongues?
[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Don ]
I still fall back to verse 22. If tongues are a sign for unbelievers, as evidenced in their first recorded use back in Acts 2, why does a church full of believers need them? Are there those in the church that are unsaved? In which case, isn't the use of a tongue directed at those individuals, and not at people such as yourself who profess to be saved?
I believe I read where you stated that you have the gift of tongues, or have used the gift of tongues; to whom did you use it? Believers or unbelievers? If it was to those who you think are believers, then you are in violation of how Paul says the gift is to be used.
Or, perhaps you only thought they were believers?....
After consideration of this point, I ask you to consider: What is the gift of tongues?
[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Don ]
http://www.bible.org/docs/nt/books/1co/1co12-14.htm
There are several other issues that this chapter raises, but we shall deal only with two of them because they have played a major role in both the history of the interpretation of this passage and the present-day applications that are so often drawn from it. The first concerns the meaning of pauvsontai (13:8). The second concerns the meaning of tevleio" (13:10). Obviously these two are related.
Stanley Toussaint argues that based upon 1) the change from katargevw to pauvw in 13:8; 2) the omission of tongues in 13:9, 12; and 3) the change in voice to the middle in pauvw—all point to tongues ceasing before Christ comes.44 The first two points do not really contribute much to the argument that tongues ceases at a time different from prophecy and knowledge, i.e., before Christ comes. The difference in meaning between katargevw and pauvw is immaterial45 and the change can easily be accounted for on stylistic, rhetorical grounds. The argument from 13:9 and 12 is not particularly convincing either.
Many have held the argument from the voice of pauvw to be fallacious as well. They claim that the verb pauvsontai is in the middle voice and as such functions as a deponent verb with active force.46 Thus the subject of the verb (i.e., "tongues") is not acting on itself (i.e., a reflexive idea), but is simply an intransitive, active verb (cf. Luke 8:24). But as D. B. Wallace points out, the argument may contain more merit than is generally afforded it, for the verb may not be a deponent at all, but a middle as Toussaint has argued.47 Even granting this, however, there is nothing in the passage that necessitates a ceasing of the gift during the apostolic age. All one can say for sure is that the terminus ad quem is the coming of the perfect as described in 13:10. The point of the passage seems to be that all three gifts—prophecy, knowledge and tongues—are temporary and not eternal, like love. The Corinthians need to focus on what is eternal.
http://www.bible.org/studies/q&a/q&a-38.htm
What does “When that which is perfect is come…”(1 Cor. 13:9) mean?
I think you are asking about 1 Corinthians 13:9-10, “ For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.” This is a somewhat debated passage, but I will share a couple of the prominent viewpoints on this passage. I also suggest you read Greg Herrick’s article, The Argument of 1 Corinthians 12-14 on our web site: www.bible.org/docs/nt/books/1co/1co12-14.htm.
13:9-10. As Paul explained it, the gift of knowledge (v. 8), essential as it was, was not exhaustive. The ability to prophesy, however crucial for the church’s life, was of limited scope. The gifts were temporary blessings in an imperfect age. One day they would give way to perfection, toward which all the gifts pointed.
What Paul meant when he referred to the coming of perfection is the subject of considerable debate. One suggestion is that perfection described the completion of the New Testament. But verse 12 makes that interpretation unlikely. A few have suggested that this state of perfection will not be reached until the new heavens and new earth are established. Another point of view understands perfection to describe the state of the church when God’s program for it is consummated at the coming of Christ. There is much to commend this view, including the natural accord it enjoys with the illustration of growth and maturity which Paul used in the following verses. [Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc.) 1983, 1985.]
There are several other issues that this chapter raises, but we shall deal only with two of them because they have played a major role in both the history of the interpretation of this passage and the present-day applications that are so often drawn from it. The first concerns the meaning of pauvsontai (13:8). The second concerns the meaning of tevleio" (13:10). Obviously these two are related.
Stanley Toussaint argues that based upon 1) the change from katargevw to pauvw in 13:8; 2) the omission of tongues in 13:9, 12; and 3) the change in voice to the middle in pauvw—all point to tongues ceasing before Christ comes.44 The first two points do not really contribute much to the argument that tongues ceases at a time different from prophecy and knowledge, i.e., before Christ comes. The difference in meaning between katargevw and pauvw is immaterial45 and the change can easily be accounted for on stylistic, rhetorical grounds. The argument from 13:9 and 12 is not particularly convincing either.
Many have held the argument from the voice of pauvw to be fallacious as well. They claim that the verb pauvsontai is in the middle voice and as such functions as a deponent verb with active force.46 Thus the subject of the verb (i.e., "tongues") is not acting on itself (i.e., a reflexive idea), but is simply an intransitive, active verb (cf. Luke 8:24). But as D. B. Wallace points out, the argument may contain more merit than is generally afforded it, for the verb may not be a deponent at all, but a middle as Toussaint has argued.47 Even granting this, however, there is nothing in the passage that necessitates a ceasing of the gift during the apostolic age. All one can say for sure is that the terminus ad quem is the coming of the perfect as described in 13:10. The point of the passage seems to be that all three gifts—prophecy, knowledge and tongues—are temporary and not eternal, like love. The Corinthians need to focus on what is eternal.
http://www.bible.org/studies/q&a/q&a-38.htm
What does “When that which is perfect is come…”(1 Cor. 13:9) mean?
I think you are asking about 1 Corinthians 13:9-10, “ For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.” This is a somewhat debated passage, but I will share a couple of the prominent viewpoints on this passage. I also suggest you read Greg Herrick’s article, The Argument of 1 Corinthians 12-14 on our web site: www.bible.org/docs/nt/books/1co/1co12-14.htm.
13:9-10. As Paul explained it, the gift of knowledge (v. 8), essential as it was, was not exhaustive. The ability to prophesy, however crucial for the church’s life, was of limited scope. The gifts were temporary blessings in an imperfect age. One day they would give way to perfection, toward which all the gifts pointed.
What Paul meant when he referred to the coming of perfection is the subject of considerable debate. One suggestion is that perfection described the completion of the New Testament. But verse 12 makes that interpretation unlikely. A few have suggested that this state of perfection will not be reached until the new heavens and new earth are established. Another point of view understands perfection to describe the state of the church when God’s program for it is consummated at the coming of Christ. There is much to commend this view, including the natural accord it enjoys with the illustration of growth and maturity which Paul used in the following verses. [Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc.) 1983, 1985.]