Charles Stanley & Mysticism

[Yeshua1]

The fundamental doctrinal misunderstanding on this thread is the failure to recognize what revelation is. James Orr speaks of it this way in his landmark book, Revelation and Inspiration: "It is customary to speak of the decay of faith in divine revelation, and in the sense intended, such a weakening of faith musts be acknowledged. In a wider respect, there is probably no proposition on which the higher religious philosophy of the past hundred years is more agreed than this--that all religion originates in revelation. Man can know God only as, in some way, God reveals, or makes Himself known, to man" (p. 2, emphasis in the original). So God's personal leading into His will is not mysticism, it is simply His Spirit guiding us.

When God called me to preach at age 18 by an unmistakable impression in my heart, and to be a missionary when I was 20, it was not revelation from God, and therefore not analogous to mysticism. It was based on my personal walk with God. Revelation is when God reveals things about Himself to us, and His plan for the ages, as in the Bible (special revelation) or through nature (general revelation).

The main book in recent years to weigh against God's personal leading of us is Decision Making and the Will of God, by Gary Friesen. I have books by Andrew Murray, F. B. Meyer, G. Campbell Morgan and others that defend the view I've just discussed and Charles Stanley teaches. It is not mysticism. It is simply the traditional view of God's leading, as admitted even by Friesen (who nonetheless sets up a straw man of it).

the Holy Spirit primary mreans to lead/direct/guide/instruct us is the Bible, as it is the ONLY infallible revelation from God to us for today, but He is not limite dto just that, as at times He will confirm that to us by circumstances/people/prayer anwers/, but that however He chooses to do something apart from the Bible to lead/guide/direct/instruct us, will ALWAYS line up and agree fully with the bible!

Think we baptists at times react to ANYTHING not in the Bible as being always suspious, for right reason, as we see the gross errors in modern charasmatic Movement!

Think that is what Dr Stanley is referring to being led by the Spirit!

 

[Revmitchell]

the Holy Spirit primary mreans to lead/direct/guide/instruct us is the Bible, as it is the ONLY infallible revelation from God to us for today, but He is not limite dto just that, as at times He will confirm that to us by circumstances/people/prayer anwers/, but that however He chooses to do something apart from the Bible to lead/guide/direct/instruct us, will ALWAYS line up and agree fully with the bible!

Think we baptists at times react to ANYTHING not in the Bible as being always suspious, for right reason, as we see the gross errors in modern charasmatic Movement!

Think that is what Dr Stanley is referring to being led by the Spirit!

Well right now it is just an attempt to demonize anyone who is not a cal.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well right now it is just an attempt to demonize anyone who is not a cal.

Be honest, have I ever demonized you and any other non cal here?

Disagreed sure, but demonized?

 

[John of Japan]

the Holy Spirit primary mreans to lead/direct/guide/instruct us is the Bible, as it is the ONLY infallible revelation from God to us for today, but He is not limite dto just that, as at times He will confirm that to us by circumstances/people/prayer anwers/, but that however He chooses to do something apart from the Bible to lead/guide/direct/instruct us, will ALWAYS line up and agree fully with the bible!

Think we baptists at times react to ANYTHING not in the Bible as being always suspious, for right reason, as we see the gross errors in modern charasmatic Movement!

Think that is what Dr Stanley is referring to being led by the Spirit!

I think you are correctly distinguishing between Biblical revelation and a personal relationship with God. This is something the Charismatics miss, with their extra-Biblical revelation. The traditional evangelical belief in Sola Scriptura is about revelation, not about the personal guidance of the Holy Spirit.

There are many places in the NT where the Spirit leads in a non-miraculous, non-revelatory way, such as Acts 16:7--"After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not." This is not at all the Charismatic view, and has nothing to do with cessationism and Charismatic excesses.

 

[Luke2427]

A couple of questions. What do you mean by Scripture and providence? Is this more than 'sola Scripture"?

Providence, as it applies to decision making, is God opening and closing doors. I cannot go through a door God has closed, so I should not stand there the rest of my life pushing on it.

If there are several doors God has opened I am to employ wisdom to choose one. I am not supposed to wait on feelings or voices bouncing around in my head.

How did God lead you to the church you now pastor? Was it written in the Scripture or did you feel God's leadership to guide you?

I sent out my resume, the church called, we met, I preached, we talked about it- we utilized wisdom to decide that this was a place where we could do ministry together- and God has blessed.

What you DON'T have Brother Tom, is any scripture, ANY AT ALL, that says to wait for a "peace" or to wait for some thought to pop in your head willy nilly and call it the Holy Spirit.

You DON'T have that at all.

That is mysticism.

We are, instead, to make decisions based on wisdom- not voices in our heads or emotional feelings in our hearts.

 

[Luke2427]

Really? A few years ago I had four new tires put on my Aerostar van. A couple of days later, I was leaving my house to run a few errands and as I was walking passed the front tire a voice came to me that said: "Don't drive this vehicle - that tire is bad." I looked at the tire and it seemd fine to me. It had air and looked perfect as could be. I had no reason to believe that there was anything wrong with the tire except this voice telling me not to drive the van. I listened and drove my Neon instead and when I got home a few hours later, that tire was flat as a pancake - rim on the ground and zero air pressure in the tire. I took the tire off the van and brought it to the shop for repair. He put air in it and within a few minutes it was flat again, so he placed the tire in the dunk tank and added more air - tire was full of microscopic cracks that could not be seen with the naked eye, but under pressure let all the air leak out. Since it appears that you do not believe God speaks to us in this way, then maybe you can explain what happened and how Scripture and Providence would guide us in the situation.

There is no biblical precedent for this.

I go by the Bible; not by stories people tell about things that happened to them.

 

[Luke2427]

I think you are correctly distinguishing between Biblical revelation and a personal relationship with God. This is something the Charismatics miss, with their extra-Biblical revelation. The traditional evangelical belief in Sola Scriptura is about revelation, not about the personal guidance of the Holy Spirit.

There are many places in the NT where the Spirit leads in a non-miraculous, non-revelatory way, such as Acts 16:7--"After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not." This is not at all the Charismatic view, and has nothing to do with cessationism and Charismatic excesses.

Sola Scriptura was meant to establish that God does NOT speak to popes and that God Word, not tradition or any other such nonsense, should be the only rule for faith and practice.

What we have today in this mystic age is a hundred million popes running around with new revelation they got from God in their prayer closet or in their cars on the way to work or whatever.

The Bible is the Word of God- not thoughts bouncing around in your head, and not feelings flying around in your heart.

There is absolutely NO biblical precedent for being led by EITHER of those things. NONE.

 

[preacher4truth]

Be honest, have I ever demonized you and any other non cal here?

Disagreed sure, but demonized?

These accusations are just myths. Same tactics used by liberals; i.e. they pull out the 'race card' when it doesn't apply and the sheeple believe them and join in.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Providence, as it applies to decision making, is God opening and closing doors. I cannot go through a door God has closed, so I should not stand there the rest of my life pushing on it.

If there are several doors God has opened I am to employ wisdom to choose one. I am not supposed to wait on feelings or voices bouncing around in my head.



I sent out my resume, the church called, we met, I preached, we talked about it- we utilized wisdom to decide that this was a place where we could do ministry together- and God has blessed.

What you DON'T have Brother Tom, is any scripture, ANY AT ALL, that says to wait for a "peace" or to wait for some thought to pop in your head willy nilly and call it the Holy Spirit.

You DON'T have that at all.

That is mysticism.

We are, instead, to make decisions based on wisdom- not voices in our heads or emotional feelings in our hearts.

Actually what you described is exactly what most of us mean when we talk about being led to do something.

So what about these Scriptures:

Acts 16:9-10 - And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

Acts 13:1-3 - Now there were at Antioch, in the church that was there, prophets and teachers: Barnabas, and Simeon who was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." Then, when they had fasted and prayed and laid their hands on them, they sent them away.

I am not talking about mysticism. I am not talking about hearing any voices. I am talking about sensing the Holy Spirit's leadership in a certain direction such as Him leading you to pastor the church you minister to.

 

[Luke2427]

Actually what you described is exactly what most of us mean when we talk about being led to do something.

So what about these Scriptures:



I am not talking about mysticism. I am not talking about hearing any voices. I am talking about sensing the Holy Spirit's leadership in a certain direction such as Him leading you to pastor the church you minister to.

Paul had a vision- a real vision.

What he did not have was "God spoke to me in my heart and told me to..."

There is no instance of that in the Bible.

That is what most people are talking about when they talk about being led by the Holy Spirit today.

What actually happens is that they are pondering a decision they need to make. They are looking for answers. Their brain begins to do what brains do- flood their minds with all kinds of words and emotions.

"Go here and do this."

And mystics say, "THERE IT IS! The Holy Ghost has just given me a word!"

It is not the Holy Ghost leading them- it is their brains doing what brains do.

They should not make decision based on such things.

They should utilize the wisdom of Proverbs and the rest of Scripture and make a sensible, well-informed decision.

That's how God told us to make decisions- to make them by wisdom; not by feelings or thoughts bouncing around in our heads that we call "God speaking to us."

 

[Revmitchell]

Actually what you described is exactly what most of us mean when we talk about being led to do something.

So what about these Scriptures:



I am not talking about mysticism. I am not talking about hearing any voices. I am talking about sensing the Holy Spirit's leadership in a certain direction such as Him leading you to pastor the church you minister to.

You hit the nail on the head. There is no doubt that scripture does not tell us which church t pastor. And while we check all things out it still may not be where God wants us. But we move forward as the Lord, through His Spirit, gives us a peace to do so. And we do not move forward when we have no peace in our hearts.


1Jn_4:13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

1Jn_5:6 This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.


Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:


There is no doubt that the HG speaks to us in our minds and Spirits to guide us. This is Christianity 101.

 

[Luke2427]

You hit the nail on the head. There is no doubt that scripture does not tell us which church t pastor. And while we check all things out it still may not be where God wants us. But we move forward as the Lord, through His Spirit, gives us a peace to do so. And we do not move forward when we have no peace in our hearts.


1Jn_4:13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

1Jn_5:6 This is he who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not by the water only but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.


Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Joh_15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:


There is no doubt that the HG speaks to us in our minds and Spirits to guide us. This is Christianity 101.

There is no doubt that those passages of Scripture do not in any way, shape or form say anything even remotely close to what you purport about getting a "peace" or whatever.

The Holy Spirit who gave us the Bible to reassure our hopes of salvation comforts and reminds us the words of Christ. That's all those passages are saying.

To make it say this mystic stuff is a blatant abuse of Scripture.

 

[quantumfaith]

Luke,

How do you have the "confidence" that you should be where you are and doing what you do as a Pastor?

 

[Mexdeaf]

If God through the Holy Spirit does not lead people, then I've been doing it wrong all these years.

NOT!

 

[quantumfaith]

If God through the Holy Spirit does not lead people, then I've been doing it wrong all these years.

NOT!

Mexdeaf, this has always been a question, seemingly unanswerable to me. I have for most of my life taken the perspective of the "wisdom approach" illuminated by Gary Friesen. I have often seen throughout my life, well intentioned people disagree over questions regarding "the will of God". I must say, I have had many sensations, usually "later" that "oh that was you God" type moments in my life. All in all, I tend to think that some have specific guidance from God regarding specific decisions and life events, but that seems to me to be "limited", but undeniable in those situations. For most people and most decisions, I think the wisdom approach in the most tenable.

 

[preachinjesus]

I was wondering why this thread kept going on, then I started reading through it...sheesh...

 

[Luke2427]

Luke,

How do you have the "confidence" that you should be where you are and doing what you do as a Pastor?

The Bible doesn't teach you to worry about such things.

The Bible tells you what to do- you do it.

The Bible REPEATEDLY declares the importance of wisdom in determining the when, where and how of it.

The Bible no where says that you should EVER rely on subjective experience- random thoughts and notions and feelings and such to make decisions.

God, through providence, opens doors and closes doors. You put your hand on various knobs and pull. You take a peek and see if wisdom dictates this is a good opportunity for you to serve God in the capacity whereby he has both gifted you and given you a passion to serve him.

Then you just do it.

Just do it.

Leave subjective feelings out.

The Bible does.

 

[Luke2427]

If God through the Holy Spirit does not lead people, then I've been doing it wrong all these years.

NOT!

Bible- that's what we want- Bible.

Not subjective experience which has no precedent in the Bible.

Bible.

The Apostles just went. They did not rely on liver shivers or any other such nonsense. When God did not want them in a particular area he would close the door. Rarely even he would send them visions and speak audibly to them. They were, after all, Apostles. But they just went to work for God using wisdom to search out the best opportunities.

If God does not want you somewhere, He will close the door.

Just serve him wherever the best and wisest opportunity presents itself.

Wisdom.

God help us to be guided by it once again and deliver us from mysticism.

 

[Revmitchell]

If God through the Holy Spirit does not lead people, then I've been doing it wrong all these years.

NOT!

Most people understand this. In fact this is the first I have ever experienced anyone who had such an abject failure to understand this biblical principle. Especially one who stand behind the pulpit every week. All I can say is wow! Of course it most likely has more to do with trashing a non cal than anything else.

 

[DHK]

Then you just do it.

Just do it.

Leave subjective feelings out.

The Bible does.

If I point you to some open doors will you walk through them? Just "do it."
There are still mission fields that are not completely closed: Bangladesh, Pakistan, Turkey, Iraq, and many others just like them.
The problem is that most able young men qualified enough to go to the mission will not obey the Great Commission, no matter how clearly it is written in the Bible, because the sacrifice is too great. It is too comfy at home than to obey the Word.
If there is no subjectiveness involved you have no excuse to not to "go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."