Charles Stanley & Mysticism

[evangelist6589]

The fundamental doctrinal misunderstanding on this thread is the failure to recognize what revelation is. James Orr speaks of it this way in his landmark book, Revelation and Inspiration: "It is customary to speak of the decay of faith in divine revelation, and in the sense intended, such a weakening of faith musts be acknowledged. In a wider respect, there is probably no proposition on which the higher religious philosophy of the past hundred years is more agreed than this--that all religion originates in revelation. Man can know God only as, in some way, God reveals, or makes Himself known, to man" (p. 2, emphasis in the original). So God's personal leading into His will is not mysticism, it is simply His Spirit guiding us.

When God called me to preach at age 18 by an unmistakable impression in my heart, and to be a missionary when I was 20, it was not revelation from God, and therefore not analogous to mysticism. It was based on my personal walk with God. Revelation is when God reveals things about Himself to us, and His plan for the ages, as in the Bible (special revelation) or through nature (general revelation).

The main book in recent years to weigh against God's personal leading of us is Decision Making and the Will of God, by Gary Friesen. I have books by Andrew Murray, F. B. Meyer, G. Campbell Morgan and others that defend the view I've just discussed and Charles Stanley teaches. It is not mysticism. It is simply the traditional view of God's leading, as admitted even by Friesen (who nonetheless sets up a straw man of it).

You can say that again. I also find it odd that this author/WOF speaker did not reply to my last email asking for honest evidences. I gave him quotes from Stanley's book on the Holy Spirit where he CLEARLY says that visions and experiences are to be tested with scripture. Thats from his own pen, and not from some blogger or twit creating rumors.

I am just saddened by the lack of reading comprehension by so many in todays culture. My goodness!

 

[John of Japan]

You can say that again. I also find it odd that this author/WOF speaker did not reply to my last email asking for honest evidences. I gave him quotes from Stanley's book on the Holy Spirit where he CLEARLY says that visions and experiences are to be tested with scripture. Thats from his own pen, and not from some blogger or twit creating rumors.

I am just saddened by the lack of reading comprehension by so many in todays culture. My goodness!

I agree with your whole post. :thumbsup:

It's late here in Japan. I have to hit the sack. :sleeping_2:

 

[InTheLight]

If God does not personally lead us, then there is no such thing as a call to preach or be a missionary. And that is certainly not true.

Exactly. This was going to be an example #1 of mine.

Also, what about the reports of Muslims having dreams about Jesus and many, many converting to Christianity? I was skeptical at first but figured why couldn't God work in this way?

 

[salzer mtn]

If you have no "experiences" with God, you need to consider whether or not you are one of His sheep (John 10:3-4, 14-15, 27-29).

We are called into a relationship with God which is NOT mediated through a book (even the Bible), but directly with/through Christ. The scriptures supplement that relationship and are invaluable, but we could still have a relationship with God without having any scripture. The most obvious example of this is Abraham - the one Paul used as an example in both Galatians and Romans to demonstrate that one can be right with God even without the Law and circumcision.

If you want to take the time to look up the post of my conversion I posted on this board you will see I had a great experience. But as one grows in grace and reading of the scripture our faith is settled on scripture not visions and faith fleeces. Today's preaching in so many pulpits are nothing but past experiences told especially by older preachers to try to increase people faith when our anchor should be in thus saith the word of God instead of someone else's experiences.

 

[John of Japan]

Exactly. This was going to be an example #1 of mine.

There are two alternatives to the traditional view in this case. (1) The idea that "I'm just obeying the Great Commission, so I became a preacher/missionary." This is a recipe for failure, because only God knows the individual and his talents and potential. (2) Friesen's "wisdom view," the idea that the individual maps his own road by his own understanding. But this fails in that the individual may not know his own potential, since the Sovereign God created him "fearfully and wonderfully" (Ps. 139:1). For example, I had no idea that I had linguistic ability until after I reached the mission field!

Also, what about the reports of Muslims having dreams about Jesus and many, many converting to Christianity? I was skeptical at first but figured why couldn't God work in this way?

I'm reserving judgment on this, personally. The key is, does the individual believe he or she is receiving revelation from God (the Charismatic view), or simply personal guidance? I think such cases should be considered case-by-case.

 

[Luke2427]

A author and me have been chatting via email and he is writing a book on the WOF movement. This man speaks at seminars, has some published DVD's and so forth. In a email he said Charles Stanley preaches Mysticism as Stanley says God speaks to him outside of scripture. I am not sure where he got that as I have several Stanley books and hear him on Podcast almost everyday. Perhaps it was something he said in his monthly in Touch Journal that is mailed out and that I have never read.

In His book on the Holy Spirit he says the following on page 207.


Then in the following paragraph he goes on and criticizes those whom claim to have been led by the Spirit without the power of the Bible.

Then on 210 he says the following.



Then on page 217 he condemns those that hold to Mysticism and approach the Bible like that.

So I am not sure where this author has gotten his sources. Can anyone clarify?

Most Christians today are mystics.

They have abandoned "sola Scriptura" for "God spoke to me in my heart and told to.. blah,blah,blah..."

 

[Luke2427]

Praise the Lord, sister, this is a wonderful testimony of God's leading. And it is not mysticism. It is simply the personal leading of the Holy Spirit, which occurs all throughout Scripture and in the lives of all of the famous saints of the past.

Nothing of what has been written about Stanley smacks of mysticism. For modern Christian mysticism, the people on this thread should investigate the works of Tozer (who was a Calvinist, if I'm not mistaken). The fundamental misunderstanding on this thread has nothing to do with the Cal/Arm debate.

If God does not personally lead us, then there is no such thing as a call to preach or be a missionary. And that is certainly not true.

It IS mysticism if it is God speaking to us in our hearts or giving us feelings and goosebumps or whatever else.

You are to be guided by Scripture and Providence in this age- as with most other ages.

There is no biblical precedent for this "God spoke to me in my heart" business and it hurts the church.

 

[Revmitchell]

If James White said it it wouldn't be mysticism

 

[Revmitchell]

Act 2:1 When the day of Pentecost arrived, they were all together in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one was hearing them speak in his own language.


Apparently the disciples were mystics as well.

 

[Revmitchell]

Act 2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
Act 2:17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
Act 2:18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
Act 2:19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;
Act 2:20 the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'


Apparently Peter and Joel were mystics as well

 

[Revmitchell]

Act 9:3 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him.
Act 9:4 And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"
Act 9:5 And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
Act 9:6 But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do."
Act 9:7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one.
Act 9:8 Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.


Apparently Paul was a mystic as well

 

[Luke2427]

If James White said it it wouldn't be mysticism

Here is a good example of the tremendous kind of contributions you typically offer.

Claims with warrants.

Intelligent people do not do this kind of thing.

 

[Luke2427]

Act 9:3 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him.
Act 9:4 And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"
Act 9:5 And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.
Act 9:6 But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do."
Act 9:7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one.
Act 9:8 Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus.


Apparently Paul was a mystic as well

Did you seriously just bring to bear a passage that took place WHILE GOD WAS VERBALLY SPEAKING TO PEOPLE to support your point that God IS still speaking to people???

Do you HONESTLY think you made any kind of point whatsoever with this post??

The MOST cessationist of all cessationists in the history of the WORLD knows that God spoke audibly to Paul!

What is your point?

What could you POSSIBLY think you have proven???

 

[Revmitchell]

Did you seriously just bring to bear a passage that took place WHILE GOD WAS VERBALLY SPEAKING TO PEOPLE to support your point that God IS still speaking to people???

Do you HONESTLY think you made any kind of point whatsoever with this post??

The MOST cessationist of all cessationists in the history of the WORLD knows that God spoke audibly to Paul!

What is your point?

What could you POSSIBLY think you have proven???

Intelligent people will understand

 

[Luke2427]

Intelligent people will understand

No, intelligent people expect you to make a case for what you purport.

No intelligent person just makes claims willy nilly and thinks he has made any worthwhile contribution to a discussion.

Not ONE.

 

[Revmitchell]

No, intelligent people expect you to make a case for what you purport.

No intelligent person just makes claims willy nilly and thinks he has made any worthwhile contribution to a discussion.

Not ONE.

Actually intelligent people do not get caught up in your word games. I read your post quite frequently. Your so called contributions are nothing but fallacies and personal attacks about intelligence. I have never seen one single post of yours that is not harsh and over the top. Not one. Not one single post. You have serious anger issues.

 

[Luke2427]

Actually intelligent people do not get caught up in your word games. I read your post quite frequently. Your so called contributions are nothing but fallacies and personal attacks about intelligence. I have never seen one single post of yours that is not harsh and over the top. Not one. Not one single post. You have serious anger issues.

This post of yours is harsh and over the top. You have serious anger issues.

Oh, AND you constantly make claims without warrants.

That's a double whammy.

 

[evangelist6589]

No, intelligent people expect you to make a case for what you purport.

No intelligent person just makes claims willy nilly and thinks he has made any worthwhile contribution to a discussion.

Not ONE.

Why respond to that poster? He is not worth the effort... Just ignore him.

 

[TC]

It IS mysticism if it is God speaking to us in our hearts or giving us feelings and goosebumps or whatever else.

You are to be guided by Scripture and Providence in this age- as with most other ages.

There is no biblical precedent for this "God spoke to me in my heart" business and it hurts the church.

Really? A few years ago I had four new tires put on my Aerostar van. A couple of days later, I was leaving my house to run a few errands and as I was walking passed the front tire a voice came to me that said: "Don't drive this vehicle - that tire is bad." I looked at the tire and it seemd fine to me. It had air and looked perfect as could be. I had no reason to believe that there was anything wrong with the tire except this voice telling me not to drive the van. I listened and drove my Neon instead and when I got home a few hours later, that tire was flat as a pancake - rim on the ground and zero air pressure in the tire. I took the tire off the van and brought it to the shop for repair. He put air in it and within a few minutes it was flat again, so he placed the tire in the dunk tank and added more air - tire was full of microscopic cracks that could not be seen with the naked eye, but under pressure let all the air leak out. Since it appears that you do not believe God speaks to us in this way, then maybe you can explain what happened and how Scripture and Providence would guide us in the situation.

 

[Tom Bryant]

It IS mysticism if it is God speaking to us in our hearts or giving us feelings and goosebumps or whatever else.

You are to be guided by Scripture and Providence in this age- as with most other ages.

There is no biblical precedent for this "God spoke to me in my heart" business and it hurts the church.

A couple of questions. What do you mean by Scripture and providence? Is this more than 'sola Scripture"?

How did God lead you to the church you now pastor? Was it written in the Scripture or did you feel God's leadership to guide you?