Charles Stanley & Mysticism

[Luke2427]

If I point you to some open doors will you walk through them? Just "do it."

I have. That's why I am where I am.

There are still mission fields that are not completely closed: Bangladesh, Pakistan, Turkey, Iraq, and many others just like them.
The problem is that most able young men qualified enough to go to the mission will not obey the Great Commission,

Yes, it is a problem. But it is naive to assume that every young preacher who stays in America is disobeying the Great Commission.

Now, if you are wise you will join with me in abandoning these liver-shiver types of guidance.

You will realize that there is, here in your post, a great argument for the reasonableness of going to wide open mission fields. And you will say with me, "God said GO! You do not have to wait on feelings. God does not have to speak subjectively to your heart! Obey him! If you have the gifts and passions for such ministry then you do not have to wait for anything. MOVE!! Get going!"

Waiting on "God spoke to my heart mess" is not filling mission opportunities- it is seeing to it that they stay largely empty.

 

[Luke2427]

Most people understand this. In fact this is the first I have ever experienced anyone who had such an abject failure to understand this biblical principle.

More bloviating without the least bit of biblical support.

Most Christians today are Catholics. What do you think you have accomplished with this "most" mess?

Most people are going to hell.

Most people are morons.

So what if "most" think they understand this and "most" think they understand that?

All I can say is wow!

Finally, a meaningful statement. This is a confession that is true on your part.

That is about all you can say. It is pretty much the limit of what you can contribute.

Thanks for being honest.

 

[Revmitchell]

More bloviating without the least bit of biblical support.

Most Christians today are Catholics. What do you think you have accomplished with this "most" mess?

Most people are going to hell.

Most people are morons.

So what if "most" think they understand this and "most" think they understand that?




Finally, a meaningful statement. This is a confession that is true on your part.

That is about all you can say. It is pretty much the limit of what you can contribute.

Thanks for being honest.

Uh yea.......

 

[DHK]

I have. That's why I am where I am.

Yes, it is a problem. But it is naive to assume that every young preacher who stays in America is disobeying the Great Commission.

The command to "go into ALL the world," was given to ALL the apostles, is applicable to ALL Christians, in one way or another. Since the Lord used absolutes (as you just did), it is safe to assume that we can conclude that ALL of us must obey that command.
There is much to learn from other religions. Often it seems that there is a greater urgency in the propagation of the message of the unsaved then of those of us who have the truth.
The Mormons, for example, require their men to serve two years each on the mission field. They pay their own way to the foreign mission field and serve there at their own expense for two years.
If every Baptist going into the ministry did the same think what would happen:
1. Many more would develop a heart for missions.
2. Mission work would get accomplished simply by the fact that thousands of more missionaries would be on the field, even if for a short term.
3. God's Word would be spread further and more extensively than ever before.
--It is a shame that cults can put such programs into practice but Baptists can't. I suppose the only way it could be implemented is if two years mission work would be a requirement before a church calls or ordains a pastor.

Now, if you are wise you will join with me in abandoning these liver-shiver types of guidance.

Reality is obedience coupled with the peace that passes all understanding, that peace coming from the Holy Spirit who has guided such a one into the center of his will. A Christian standing outside of the will of God will be a very miserable Christian indeed.

You will realize that there is, here in your post, a great argument for the reasonableness of going to wide open mission fields. And you will say with me, "God said GO! You do not have to wait on feelings.

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give unto you. Let not your hearts be troubled neither be afraid."
--Christ speaks much about peace. It is a feeling. It is a feeling that the Holy Spirit gives the believer--a calm assurance that he is doing the will of God. How does a missionary know that he is in the center of God's will? How does one choose the area of service that he believes God wants him to serve? Does he leave it all up to circumstances? newspaper articles? random passages of Scriptures? current events? the gossip column? What? The devil can arrange all these things. He uses circumstances also. He also can open doors and shut doors. If there is no subjective "guiding" of the Holy Spirit, then how do you know if you are not being "led by the devil" instead?

God does not have to speak subjectively to your heart! Obey him! If you have the gifts and passions for such ministry then you do not have to wait for anything. MOVE!! Get going!"

I am a missionary. I must be careful in the places I go to.
I must make certain I am in the center of God's will.
It would be more dangerous for me to stay in Canada outside the will of God, than it would be for me to go to a troubled part of the world--an Islamic third world nation where there are demonstrations on a regular basis. Being in the center of God's will is key. But how is one to determine that?

James 4:13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:
14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

--"If the Lord will." But what is the Lord's will? That is the question. Only the Holy Spirit can give the answer.

Waiting on "God spoke to my heart mess" is not filling mission opportunities- it is seeing to it that they stay largely empty.

Sometimes "waiting" is an excuse for disobedience. There comes a time for action. We wait for direction, not an excuse for inaction.

Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.

 

[Luke2427]

The command to "go into ALL the world," was given to ALL the apostles, is applicable to ALL Christians, in one way or another. Since the Lord used absolutes (as you just did), it is safe to assume that we can conclude that ALL of us must obey that command.
There is much to learn from other religions. Often it seems that there is a greater urgency in the propagation of the message of the unsaved then of those of us who have the truth.
The Mormons, for example, require their men to serve two years each on the mission field. They pay their own way to the foreign mission field and serve there at their own expense for two years.
If every Baptist going into the ministry did the same think what would happen:
1. Many more would develop a heart for missions.
2. Mission work would get accomplished simply by the fact that thousands of more missionaries would be on the field, even if for a short term.
3. God's Word would be spread further and more extensively than ever before.
--It is a shame that cults can put such programs into practice but Baptists can't. I suppose the only way it could be implemented is if two years mission work would be a requirement before a church calls or ordains a pastor.

So be clear- are you saying that you think that all young preachers who build churches in America are disobeying God??

Reality is obedience coupled with the peace that passes all understanding, that peace coming from the Holy Spirit who has guided such a one into the center of his will. A Christian standing outside of the will of God will be a very miserable Christian indeed.

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give unto you. Let not your hearts be troubled neither be afraid."
--Christ speaks much about peace. It is a feeling.

Says who? Nobody is against feelings- but feelings need to be the result of facts.
Not some magical, mystical stuff.

Peace comes from KNOWING that Christ is who he said he was and that he will do what he said he will do.

It is not some mystical feeling that washes over us without any basis in knowledge.

Peace is the RESULT of knowing something. It is tied inextricably to knowing something.

Mystics separate peace from knowledge.

Assurance is not based on feelings; it is based on facts.

It is a feeling that the Holy Spirit gives the believer--a calm assurance that he is doing the will of God. How does a missionary know that he is in the center of God's will?

Because he is obeying the Great Commission in the Bible- that's how.

Mystics get hung up on the when and where too much. Just do it where you can do it most effectively and you can know that you are obeying the Word of God.

Never in the Bible are we called upon to obey feelings we have. We are called upon to obey the Word of God.

Are you building a church in Ontario? Great! You can know you are obeying.
But what if you went to Hong Kong and built a church there? Guess what? You are still obeying.

Go! That what Jesus said. If you are doing it, you are obeying- and you are obeying something INFINITELY better than your feelings. Yu are obeying the Word of God.

How does one choose the area of service that he believes God wants him to serve?

He better use wisdom.

Does he leave it all up to circumstances? newspaper articles? random passages of Scriptures? current events? the gossip column? What? The devil can arrange all these things. He uses circumstances also. He also can open doors and shut doors. If there is no subjective "guiding" of the Holy Spirit, then how do you know if you are not being "led by the devil" instead?

The devil cannot open doors God shuts and the devil cannot shut doors God opens. That is an overstatement on your part.

The Apostles went. Why the Macedonian Call? Because Paul's practice was to go until God stopped him.

Why did Paul go to the synagogues first? Wisdom. He was well versed in their culture.

Just go. Take the best opportunity and go. That's what you do.

I repeat, the Bible does not say to wait on feelings or to be guided by feelings.

It says to go so we go.

I am a missionary. I must be careful in the places I go to.
I must make certain I am in the center of God's will.

And the way you discern God's will is through feelings???

You better just use biblically informed wisdom and abandon being guided by feelings.

 

[John of Japan]

Sola Scriptura was meant to establish that God does NOT speak to popes and that God Word, not tradition or any other such nonsense, should be the only rule for faith and practice.

What we have today in this mystic age is a hundred million popes running around with new revelation they got from God in their prayer closet or in their cars on the way to work or whatever.

The Bible is the Word of God- not thoughts bouncing around in your head, and not feelings flying around in your heart.

There is absolutely NO biblical precedent for being led by EITHER of those things. NONE.

You appear to be completely confused--or just ignorant, I'm not sure which--about the doctrine of revelation. Simple individual guidance by God is not revelation and it is not mysticism, and you have yet to answer my points on that--but of course I'm sure you have your own private definition of mysticism. (Not that I have any desire to suffer your style of debating which hinges on supercilious name calling and irrelevant criticism.)

 

[Revmitchell]

Y(Not that I have any desire to suffer your style of debating which hinges on supercilious name calling and irrelevant criticism.)

Awwwww.....but why? We all enjoy it so much. What is wrong with you?

 

[John of Japan]

Awwwww.....but why? We all enjoy it so much. What is wrong with you?

Yeah, and I had a root canal once that I "enjoyed" too!

Just got back from a wonderful picnic with a bunch of other missionaries, every one of who could tell you about their call to preach and call to be a missionary. So the question remains, does Luke even have a call to preach? Would he recognize one?

 

[Revmitchell]

Just got back from a wonderful picnic with a bunch of other missionaries, every one of who could tell you about their call to preach and call to be a missionary. So the question remains, does Luke even have a call to preach? Would he recognize one?

You read my mind.

 

[John of Japan]

Here is a standard definition of mysticism (which Luke has yet to give): "Mysticism, however, as the term is commonly used, errs in holding to the attainment of religious knowledge by direct communication from God, and by passive absorption of the human activities into the divine. It either partially or wholly loses sight of (a) the outward organs of revelation, nature and the Scriptures; (b) the activity of the human powers in the reception of all religious knowledge; (c) the personality of man and, by consequence, the personality of God" (A. H. Strong, Systematic Theology, p. 32).

Note from this that mystics believe they are receiving spiritual knowledge directly from God. We who believe in the guidance of the Holy Spirit do not. Note also that mystics believe their knowledge is revelation outside of the Scriptures. We who believe in the guidance of the Holy Spirit specifically cling to Scripture, do not believe we are receiving extra-Biblical revelation, and only believe in individual guidance from God, not any revelation of the nature of God which is applicable to any others but ourselves.

 

[InTheLight]

A man’s heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps. Proverbs 16:9

 

[quantumfaith]

Luke,

May I quote you using one of your more colorful pronouncements?

"Most people are morons".

Come on Luke, don't let your passions overtake you judgement making such statement.

 

[Revmitchell]

More bloviating without the least bit of biblical support.

Most Christians today are Catholics. What do you think you have accomplished with this "most" mess?

Most people are going to hell.

Most people are morons.

So what if "most" think they understand this and "most" think they understand that?




Finally, a meaningful statement. This is a confession that is true on your part.

That is about all you can say. It is pretty much the limit of what you can contribute.

Thanks for being honest.

Aside from the nasty attitude you carry you are also inconsistent:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2010941&postcount=48

 

[Alive in Christ]

Luke posted...

The Holy Spirit who gave us the Bible to reassure our hopes of salvation comforts and reminds us the words of Christ.

Absolutely. Praise God.

And God ALSO, when HE desires to, will sometimes *incline* us, through the ministry of The Holy Spirit, to discern His leading, regarding any number of issues that that might come up.

It is NOT "mysticizm. It is God proving Himself to as to being the magnifient Father/God that that He is. I have experienced *hearing* His leading many many times. It is a wonderfull blessing. You are missing out.

Praise Him for ever more!

 

[Luke2427]

You appear to be completely confused--or just ignorant, I'm not sure which--about the doctrine of revelation. Simple individual guidance by God is not revelation and it is not mysticism, and you have yet to answer my points on that--but of course I'm sure you have your own private definition of mysticism. (Not that I have any desire to suffer your style of debating which hinges on supercilious name calling and irrelevant criticism.)

Simple guidance is not what we are talking about.

Obviously, I believe in simple guidance as I have advocated FOR IT here.

I said in no uncertain terms that God guides us through Scripture and Providence.

That is simple guidance.

What you are advocating is not simple guidance- at least as best I can tell- your posts are always so ambiguous that pinning you down on a position is like nailing jello to a wall.

What you seem to be advocating is that God is "speaking to people in their hearts." Furthermore you seem to support the idea that we should be guided by subjective feelings that we can just willy nilly CALL the Holy Spirit.

I am challenging you to support this notion with Scripture.

 

[Luke2427]

Awwwww.....but why? We all enjoy it so much. What is wrong with you?

Another stellar contribution.

 

[Luke2427]

Here is a standard definition of mysticism (which Luke has yet to give): "Mysticism, however, as the term is commonly used, errs in holding to the attainment of religious knowledge by direct communication from God, and by passive absorption of the human activities into the divine. It either partially or wholly loses sight of (a) the outward organs of revelation, nature and the Scriptures; (b) the activity of the human powers in the reception of all religious knowledge; (c) the personality of man and, by consequence, the personality of God" (A. H. Strong, Systematic Theology, p. 32).

Note from this that mystics believe they are receiving spiritual knowledge directly from God. We who believe in the guidance of the Holy Spirit do not.

Saying you do not does not mean you do not.

Show the distinction between what you think God is doing when God is speaking to YOU and what God is doing when mystics think God is speaking to them.

Show how your reliance upon feelings wherein you think the Holy Spirit gives you a "peace" about some decision you have to make is in any meaningful way different from myticism.

Note also that mystics believe their knowledge is revelation outside of the Scriptures. We who believe in the guidance of the Holy Spirit specifically cling to Scripture, do not believe we are receiving extra-Biblical revelation, and only believe in individual guidance from God, not any revelation of the nature of God which is applicable to any others but ourselves.

God is speaking to you, REVEALING what you should do in a given circumstance and it is not REVELATION?

Interesting.

You do realize the root word for REVELATION is....

 

[Luke2427]

Just got back from a wonderful picnic with a bunch of other missionaries, every one of who could tell you about their call to preach and call to be a missionary. So the question remains, does Luke even have a call to preach? Would he recognize one?

Yes, and I have attended Assembly of God meetings where hundreds gathered to celebrate their receiving the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking in tongues and emotional hoopla.

So the question remains, does John even HAVE the Holy Ghost? Would he recognize Him?

Do you see how stupid that line of reasoning is:

"I talked to a bunch of folks who agree with me... THERE!!!"

Whoopty-do!

Do you think you have a point in that?

 

[Luke2427]

Aside from the nasty attitude you carry you are also inconsistent:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2010941&postcount=48

Scales did not literally fall off of her eyes.

She came to understand the truth- that is all that meant. What it did not mean was that she was guided by some feelings or other nonsense.

Her feelings were guided by the facts she encountered.

 

[DHK]

What you seem to be advocating is that God is "speaking to people in their hearts." Furthermore you seem to support the idea that we should be guided by subjective feelings that we can just willy nilly CALL the Holy Spirit.

I am challenging you to support this notion with Scripture.

The Bible often uses the word "heart."
It refers to the mind.
Out of the abundance of the heart man speaks.
"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked." However that is more descriptive of the unsaved heart.
The word "heart" is used 99 times in the NT alone.

Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

Luke 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
--What was slow to believe?

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
--What is hardened? What understands?

Yes, God speaks to our hearts (our minds). This is a definite teaching of the Bible. He did in the time of Christ; why shouldn't he now. Christ taught his disciples, and then promised that when he left them he would send them the Comforter, and He would continue to teach them. He still does today.
As late as 90 A.D. or later John wrote:
1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
--The anointing that they received and abided in them is the Holy Spirit. He dwells in all of us who believed in Christ.
That same Spirit teaches us of all things. He is truth.

He had already said to them:
1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

The Holy Spirit teaches. The Holy Spirit guides.
Man is an emotional creature. God made him with emotions.
Many of the fruits of the Spirit are expressed in emotions: Love, joy, peace.
In John 16:24 Jesus promised joy; joy to them that would pray in his name.

He promised peace to those who spent time in prayer:
Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Paul prayed for the Ephesians that they would know and experience the love of Christ:
Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

We are not robots simply responding to the mechanics and instructions given in the Word. John was directed to Japan by the Holy Spirit. How and why? Why not China or some other nation? The Holy Spirit spoke to his heart and gave him inner peace about Japan.
Before setting out for the mission field that my family served in, we prayed for at least six months. Then the Lord gave us peace that that is where we should go. It is not, "we convincing ourselves." Rather it is waiting for the Lord to guide us according to his will. What is his will for your life? How do you know?

James 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.