I don't know where you get that. I wrote that He judges righteously - that is justice AND mercy.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Children who die
- Thread starter evangelist6589
- Start date
The inference was that God would display mercy because He is righteous. But, that discounts justice.
If a baby is conceived doomed (or damned) and God simply allows a pass, He has shelved His justice and thereby would become corrupt.
.
Faith isn't "exercised" to believe upon Christ. Faith comes by hearing the word of God... one believes by the enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. When you heard the good news, and He turned the light bulb on, faith came to you.
You've been exercising faith since then, and only since
.
Everyone runs to their theological corners on issues like this. Issues where God has not actually spoken to this. We do know that King David assumed his son who had died would be where he would be in the future. (2 Samuel 12:23)
We also know that Jesus said that we should have the faith of children which is humble, genuine, and pure.(Matthew 18:4) These children have angels assigned to them to keep watch and go to the Father on their behalf. (Matthew 18:10)
People can say and believe what they want but children have the special attention of God. Based on his use of their example so do those who have a genuine and humble faith like they do.
So what we can glean from what Christ said about children is that we should raise them up in the Lord. We should also hold a faith like theirs.
That being said maybe we should all spend less time trying to be right about doctrine and making nasty remarks to each other and find the humility of a child. Spend more time being concerned with our own walk and less time worrying about the walk of another because you cannot do both. We cannot be humble and nasty to others. We cannot have a genuine faith and spend so much time dogging someone else faith.
We also know that Jesus said that we should have the faith of children which is humble, genuine, and pure.(Matthew 18:4) These children have angels assigned to them to keep watch and go to the Father on their behalf. (Matthew 18:10)
People can say and believe what they want but children have the special attention of God. Based on his use of their example so do those who have a genuine and humble faith like they do.
So what we can glean from what Christ said about children is that we should raise them up in the Lord. We should also hold a faith like theirs.
That being said maybe we should all spend less time trying to be right about doctrine and making nasty remarks to each other and find the humility of a child. Spend more time being concerned with our own walk and less time worrying about the walk of another because you cannot do both. We cannot be humble and nasty to others. We cannot have a genuine faith and spend so much time dogging someone else faith.
First, i think you missed this:
I never hinted that only our body needs to be saved. What i said is that only our body is corrupt on accout of Adam. The spirit is corrupt on account of each person.
I think it would benefit you to read the end of chapter 4 and the beginning of chapter 5
Ch. 4:
22 Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness.
23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,
24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification
Paul ends his gospel of justification by faith right there, as evidenced by...
Ch. 5:
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation
Every verse in 5:1-11 speaks of our reconciliation and justification in PAST tense. Verse 5 says the Holy Spirit HAS BEEN poured out in our hearts to help with the tribulations mentioned in verse 3.
This is written to those who have already obtained grace (verse 2).
What follows is Paul's teaching about the physical body being corrupted by Adam and redeemed by Christ.
But the corruption of the inner man was addressed back in 1:18-25 when each becomes a fool, acknowledges God no longer, etc, and God turns him over to his own devices.
Babies have no devices, and are thereby never corrupted in their spirit. They don't need a pass, because they aren't sinners
.
Mercy and justice are reconciled in the atonement of Christ. They are both affirmed and satisfied.
That is part of the mystery of the atonement that is at the core of the Christian message.
No one has "merit." I don't even think in those terms.
Access? All humankind has access to God through the Person of Christ. Why in the world would children - who have not rejected God by rebellion against Him - not have access to Him?
Christ has merit. The atonement is the only merit.
But access is through faith - Romans 5:2
And a baby is incapable of accessing anything through faith. So if God says access is through faith, but babies have no faith, and God gives them a pass through a different access point, then He would be unfaithful to Himself
****edit
Your question at the end seems to be written from the erroneous position that a baby is somehow sharing in the guilt of Adam's transgression. If not, i apologize.
But a baby is conceived without guilt, born without guilt. Our bodies are cursed to die because all of creation became cursed.
But when that baby matures and becomes his own person, he goes his own way, then he becomes corrupt in spirit.
So the baby has access to God, then loses access to God when he reaches a point of culpability.
Then only those who believe upon Christ have access again
Last edited by a moderator:
They in fact do:
Mat_18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
I didn't miss anything, because that text says no such thing. However, you are ignoring what Romans 5:12-19 does say and this 'by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" not by "many men's acts of disobedience many men were made sinners" and that is precisely how you interpreting Romans 1:18-32 (which says nothing about spiritual death due to individual acts).
You are [personal attack snipped] ignoring what the text explicitly and clearly states to the contrary and that is "BY ONE MAN'S DISOBEDIENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS" not as you claim by "many mens individual acts of sin are many made sinners." The whole context and the repeated "by one man" completely repudiates what you are saying.
You certainly have a right to your own imaginations but not to your own facts.
David, Job and Isaiah completely disagree with your imagined doctrine.
Paul disagrees with your imagined doctrine.
FACT #1 - death is the consequence of Adam's sin - Rom. 5:12
FACT #2 - Individual death is not due to individual acts of sin - Rom. 5:13-14
FACT #3 - By one man's act of disobedience men were made sinners - Rom. 5:15-19
FACT #4 - By one man's disobedience many be dead and so death is not due to individual acts of sin.
FACT #5 - Hence, ALL SINNED IN ADAM as it was a RACE SIN and that is why infants die just like all other humans die and NONE die due to individual acts of sin.
Last edited by a moderator:
However you want to put it. It's no more possible for a grown man to believe than it is for an infant.
Always? Doesn't your idea require that it isn't always? That there is a time when an individual's "angel" is released from that status?
John Gill had the proper understanding of that verse:
Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones,.... That is, one of those little ones that believed in Christ; for he is not speaking of infants in age, but of those who might be compared to such, for their humility and modesty; who were little in their own eyes, and mean and despicable in the eyes of the world, as well as appeared but little in the eyes of their fellow disciples and brethren; for our Lord returns and addresses himself to his disciples, who had been contending among themselves who should be greatest in the kingdom of heaven; and so were striving to lessen one another, each looking upon himself as the greater, and every other as little. Wherefore Christ cautions them against such a spirit, and bids them beware of despising their fellow disciples, as little, and below them; especially since so much notice and care were taken of them, both in heaven, and in earth:
for I say unto you, that in heaven: the phrase, "in heaven", is omitted in the Syriac and Persic versions, perhaps because it might be looked upon as unnecessary, since it afterwards appears; but is very proper, or pertinent, whether it be considered as descriptive of the angels, who have their habitation there, in distinction from the evil angels, who are cast down from thence; or as pointing out the place where the angels behold the face of God, and who are styled "their angels"; the angels of the little ones, that believe in Christ, who are ministering spirits unto them, the guardians of them, who encamp about them, and do many good offices for them. Some have thought from hence, that every good man has his peculiar angel that waits upon him, and cares for him; but this does not necessarily follow from, these words, only that they all have an interest in angels, and in their good services. This seems indeed to have been a notion that prevailed among the Jews, not only that there were angels which presided over particular nations, but who also had the care of particular persons; so they speak of an angel that was particularly appointed for Abraham (f). Nor will they allow, that one angel does two messages, nor two angels one (g) message: but that everyone has his particular place, person, and work; of whom it is further said, that they
do always behold the face of my father which is in heaven: which is not so much to be understood of their intellectual knowledge, and apprehension of the divine being, of their beholding the glory of his nature, and essence, and of their contemplating and applauding his perfections; as of their ministering before him, waiting, as servants, upon him, watching to receive his orders, and ready to obey his commands. And our Lord's argument is, that if such excellent creatures as the angels in heaven, who are continually favoured with being in the presence of Christ's heavenly father, honoured with so high a station, as always to stand before him, as ministers of his; if these are the guardians of these little ones, if they are committed to their care, and they have the oversight of them, then they ought not to be despised: and besides, since the angels that have the care of them are so near the throne, it should deter everyone from having their charge in contempt, or doing any injury to them; since they arc capable of lodging accusations and complaints against them; and, when leave is given, have power of executing the sorest judgments upon men. This description of angels agrees with what the Jews say of them, especially of the chief of them. Michael, they say (h), is the first and principal of the chief princes, "that behold the face of the king"; that is, the King of kings, the Lord of hosts. Suriel, which, with them, is another name of an angel, is called (i), , "the prince of faces", who is always in the presence of God; and, as the gloss says, is "an angel that is counted worthy to come before the king."
Last edited by a moderator:
Eh?
I am a grown man, and i believe. But i did not believe when i was 2 months old.
Your post doesn't make sense as it's written.
First, I appreciate your tone in response to my post. This is a very good example of how to carry on a discussion when we disagree. Second, scripture doesn't tell us when or if that happens. I have learned to be satisfied with just not knowing instead of trying to read between the lines when God has not spoken.
So the answer is no. It does not require it nor would I claim that. I am not willing to go beyond what scripture has made clear.
Last edited by a moderator:
If you believe, it's not because of your nature or your adulthood. There are grown men who aren't convinced. Why is that? Is it because your preaching is inadequate? Is it because you don't walk on water? Are the Scriptures inadequate?
Besides, I have no memories from two months. Do you?
But you are going beyond it. You say this means merit. When is the merit used up?
I have never said anything in this thread about merit.
That's a strange knot you've tied yourself into.
Biblical faith is not intellectual assent, but trust. Babies can't do anything BUT trust. They are nearly helpless. Only when children get older and become self-reliant do they have opportunities NOT to trust. That's part of what Jesus was talking about when He showed the crowd a child and said that all must become as children to enter the Kingdom of God. Children presume upon others to take care of them because they can't do it for themselves.
It is not. I don't find that in the scripture.