Children who die

[Baptist Believer]

Another thing to consider is that God did not hold the children of Israel under 20 years of age accountable for the rebellion in the Wilderness (see Numbers 14).

Except for a very few older persons, the rest were condemned to die in the Wilderness for their rebellion.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You may be interested to read Spurgeon on the subject.
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0411.htm
I am not entirely certain that I can go all the way with him. My own belief is simply to lay the infant in the hands of God and say, 'Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?' Of course He will! Not all of God's counsel is open for us to read. 'The secret things belong to the LORD' (Deut. 29:29). In some things we must humble ourselves and trust in the goodness of God. However, Spurgeon is always a blessed read.

 

[kyredneck]

Which one does this verse apply to if death comes at time of the image?

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man (a certain one) be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

:thumbs:

11 for the children being not yet born, neither having done anything good or bad, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth,
12 it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. Ro 9

 

[kyredneck]

Heaven or hell? What if God knows what to they will become when they grow old? But that would not be fair.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory, Ro 9

 

[JamesL]

You may be interested to read Spurgeon on the subject.
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0411.htm
I am not entirely certain that I can go all the way with him. My own belief is simply to lay the infant in the hands of God and say, 'Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?' Of course He will! Not all of God's counsel is open for us to read. 'The secret things belong to the LORD' (Deut. 29:29). In some things we must humble ourselves and trust in the goodness of God. However, Spurgeon is always a blessed read.

That sentiment betrays a deficient understanding of what it means to be born again, and why it's necessary.

 

[kyredneck]

Another thing to consider is that God did not hold the children of Israel under 20 years of age accountable for the rebellion in the Wilderness (see Numbers 14).

Except for a very few older persons, the rest were condemned to die in the Wilderness for their rebellion.

By type, these were still His REDEEMED. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin [Ro 4:8]. Even after all the wickedness Israel had done in the wilderness after leaving Egypt (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare, "He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them" [Nu 23:21].

There was an entire generation of His, redeemed with a mighty hand from the House of Bondage, who rejected His gospel command to go in and possess the Promised Land, who became 'children of His wrath', condemned to wander lost in the Wilderness for the rest of their lives. Yet throughout all their wandering/chastening in the Wilderness He still gave them shade by day and light by night, He fed them manna, gave them water, their clothes never wore out, their feet didn't blister, etc., He was with them always even though He granted them no repentance to enter into His Rest. They wandered in the Wilderness for the rest of their lives when they could have spent it in the Land of Milk & Honey, had they only believed THE GOSPEL that it was their's for the taking.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

]He still gave them shade by day and light by night, He fed them manna, gave them water, their clothes never wore out, their feet didn't blister, etc., He was with them always even though He granted them no repentance to enter into His Rest. They wandered in the Wilderness for the rest of their lives when they could have spent it in the Land of Milk & Honey, had they only believed THE GOSPEL that it was their's for the taking.

So ....it was their decision to Believe, however they chose their own way & were thus miserable.

 

[Deacon]

Originally Posted by Martin Marprelate
You may be interested to read Spurgeon on the subject.
http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0411.htm
I am not entirely certain that I can go all the way with him. My own belief is simply to lay the infant in the hands of God and say, 'Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?' Of course He will! Not all of God's counsel is open for us to read. 'The secret things belong to the LORD' (Deut. 29:29). In some things we must humble ourselves and trust in the goodness of God. However, Spurgeon is always a blessed read.

That sentiment betrays a deficient understanding of what it means to be born again, and why it's necessary.

I couldn't have said it better than Martin. I trust that God will work his good purposes and my opinion will not change a thing.

Rob

 

[kyredneck]

So ....it was their decision to Believe, however they chose their own way & were thus miserable.

I'm convinced the majority of His children do just that.

5 Trust in Jehovah with all thy heart, And lean not upon thine own understanding:
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, And he will direct thy paths. Prov 3

Few there are that actually really walk that narrow way.

 

[Yeshua1]

That sentiment betrays a deficient understanding of what it means to be born again, and why it's necessary.

Cannot the Lord apply that saving grace towards them though, yes or no?

 

[Baptist Believer]

By type, these were still His REDEEMED.

...

There was an entire generation of His, redeemed with a mighty hand from the House of Bondage, who rejected His gospel command to go in and possess the Promised Land, who became 'children of His wrath', condemned to wander lost in the Wilderness for the rest of their lives. Yet throughout all their wandering/chastening in the Wilderness He still gave them shade by day and light by night, He fed them manna, gave them water, their clothes never wore out, their feet didn't blister, etc., He was with them always even though He granted them no repentance to enter into His Rest. They wandered in the Wilderness for the rest of their lives when they could have spent it in the Land of Milk & Honey, had they only believed THE GOSPEL that it was their's for the taking.

I disagree that they are a TYPE of redemption. According to the Epistle to the Hebrews, they are a representation of those who are apostate and incapable of repentance (Hebrews 3:1-6:6). They only survived because of the intercession of Moses (Numbers 14). Otherwise, God would have destroyed them.

 

[kyredneck]

....and Moses is a type of....

 

[Revmitchell]

I disagree that they are a TYPE of redemption. According to the Epistle to the Hebrews, they are a representation of those who are apostate and incapable of repentance (Hebrews 3:1-6:6). They only survived because of the intercession of Moses (Numbers 14). Otherwise, God would have destroyed them.

You just described them as being a type of the redeemed.

 

[Baptist Believer]

You just described them as being a type of the redeemed.

Actually, no.

They did not enter into God's rest and the argument of Hebrews , especially 6:4-6, is that they rejected God and (as a type) are forever lost.

Go through Hebrews 3-6 and watch the progression of the argument. If we use the wilderness experience as a type (as did the author of Hebrews) then they are irretrievably lost. Hebrews is written to encourage the physical and spiritual descendants of those who were in the wilderness not to repeat the mistakes their forefathers made. The children of Israel were invited to be a Kingdom of priests (Exodus 19) while we are also called to be a Kingdom of priests in the Kingdom of God (which Jesus has explicitly called us into). To enter that rest (the Kingdom, aka the rule of God) we must follow Jesus as the children of Israel followed Moses. Those who followed Moses experience a sovereign act of God and were drawn into the wilderness and offered an opportunity to be a Kingdom. They ultimately refused and died in the wilderness after they hardened themselves toward God. In a similar way today, persons - by a sovereign act of God - are called into a place of opportunity/testing where they receive the offer to follow Jesus into rest. If they do not rebel, they soon find themselves in the Kingdom and begin to experience transformation in a similar way to those who were obedient to God and Joshua and entered the Kingdom and worked to transform the land into a place of righteousness.

Please note, this is not about "going to Heaven" but rather, the Kingdom of God which includes eternal life/fellowship with God, but also much more.

 

[Revmitchell]

Actually, no.

They did not enter into God's rest and the argument of Hebrews , especially 6:4-6, is that they rejected God and (as a type) are forever lost.

Go through Hebrews 3-6 and watch the progression of the argument. If we use the wilderness experience as a type (as did the author of Hebrews) then they are irretrievably lost. Hebrews is written to encourage the physical and spiritual descendants of those who were in the wilderness not to repeat the mistakes their forefathers made. The children of Israel were invited to be a Kingdom of priests (Exodus 19) while we are also called to be a Kingdom of priests in the Kingdom of God (which Jesus has explicitly called us into). To enter that rest (the Kingdom, aka the rule of God) we must follow Jesus as the children of Israel followed Moses. Those who followed Moses experience a sovereign act of God and were drawn into the wilderness and offered an opportunity to be a Kingdom. They ultimately refused and died in the wilderness after they hardened themselves toward God. In a similar way today, persons - by a sovereign act of God - are called into a place of opportunity/testing where they receive the offer to follow Jesus into rest. If they do not rebel, they soon find themselves in the Kingdom and begin to experience transformation in a similar way to those who were obedient to God and Joshua and entered the Kingdom and worked to transform the land into a place of righteousness.

Please note, this is not about "going to Heaven" but rather, the Kingdom of God which includes eternal life/fellowship with God, but also much more.

Good point.

 

[kyredneck]

...Go through Hebrews 3-6 and watch the progression of the argument.....

Go through the entire book, these 'falling away' are described as brethren, partakers of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God, received the knowledge of the truth, sanctified by the blood of the covenant, the LORD's people. They entered not into His rest because of unbelief. Even Moses and Aaron were refused entrance into the land because of their unbelief.

 

[Don]

But Hebrews 10 also says we are not of those, but believe to the saving of our souls. Different kinds (levels?) of belief.

 

[kyredneck]

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10

 

[Yeshua1]

Hebrews 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:
29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10

NOT addressed to those who are saved though, but speaking of those who merely professed jesus as messiah, and in time turned back to trusting in OT system to save them!

 

[kyredneck]

NOT addressed to those who are saved though, but speaking of those who merely professed jesus as messiah, and in time turned back to trusting in OT system to save them!

The Prophet, who came only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, foretold precisely of the 'falling away' of this epistle:

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the evil one, and snatcheth away that which hath been sown in his heart. This is he that was sown by the way side.
20 And he that was sown upon the rocky places, this is he that heareth the word, and straightway with joy receiveth it;
21 yet hath he not root in himself, but endureth for a while; and when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, straightway he stumbleth.
22 And he that was sown among the thorns, this is he that heareth the word; and the care of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
23 And he that was sown upon the good ground, this is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; who verily beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. Mt 13

Which of these 'grounds' are regenerate in your theology? Only the last one?