Choice: God or Man - exegete John 6:32-40

[Van]

Do all sinners have innate faith, does God give that to all, or just to His own?

Y1 asks this question over and over again. I have answered it more than a half dozen times. The post is just a deflection because Y1 never addresses the answer, but simply asks another question Doctrine that is defended in such a manner should be consider bogus.

Here is my answer from 2013!
More graffiti from Calvinism. No one has "innate faith". God does not instill "innate faith" in anyone. Trusting in Christ is not innate (or inherit) but results from wholeheartedly embracing the gospel of Christ. The gospel is the power of God for salvation.

Did not God choose those rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? When God credits our faith, as wretched as it may be, as righteousness, He sets us apart spiritually in Christ, our individual election for salvation.

Why do we love Him. Because He first loved us, and demonstrated that love for us by dying for our sins on the cross. We were drawn when we beheld Him high and lifted up.

 

[Particular]

As you may know, the fiction that people cannot choose to trust in God and His Christ, has no support in scripture. Romans 4:4-5 indicates the person, once aware of God's promises, including the gospel, can with his or her God given capacity to trust, choose to trust fully, in part or not at all in those promises.

Scripture says close to a dozen times "his faith" or "your faith" but never says your "God given faith." So faith comes from hearing (or becoming aware) of the promises of God, and then choosing to trust in them.

The idea we must be compelled to believe is just another fiction.

My understanding of John 6:37 - (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

Thanks for clarifying. For you then, faith is something everyone has and God determines who will be credited with righteousness, based upon how the person responds to God's call. The emphasis in the passage is not verse 39 as some others have stated, but it is in verse 37. Is that accurate?

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks for clarifying. For you then, faith is something everyone has and God determines who will be credited with righteousness, based upon how the person responds to God's call. The emphasis in the passage is not verse 39 as some others have stated, but it is in verse 37. Is that accurate?

His view is John Wesley 101...

 

[Van]

Thanks for clarifying. For you then, faith is something everyone has and God determines who will be credited with righteousness, based upon how the person responds to God's call. The emphasis in the passage is not verse 39 as some others have stated, but it is in verse 37. Is that accurate?

I do not know why you said "faith is something everyone has?" I certainly never said nor suggested such fiction. I do believe most everyone starts our with the capacity to trust or not in the promises of God. But Matthew 13 teaches that some, soil #1 have so hardened their hearts they cannot understand the gospel, so they have lost their ability to believe in the promises of God. But the other three soils of Matthew 13 have the capacity to hear and learn. Next of course, such as Romans 11, God can for His purpose harden the hearts of individuals to prevent them from responding affirmatively to the gospel.

God determines which of the individuals who go "all in" for Christ, and does not credit as righteousness those with no "root" (superficial faith) and those who continue to treasure worldly things in addition to Christ. When you see a verse that says the gospel is hidden from those who are perishing, I believe this is in reference to those soil #1 types.

 

[Yeshua1]

Y1 asks this question over and over again. I have answered it more than a half dozen times. The post is just a deflection because Y1 never addresses the answer, but simply asks another question Doctrine that is defended in such a manner should be consider bogus.

Here is my answer from 2013!
More graffiti from Calvinism. No one has "innate faith". God does not instill "innate faith" in anyone. Trusting in Christ is not innate (or inherit) but results from wholeheartedly embracing the gospel of Christ. The gospel is the power of God for salvation.

Did not God choose those rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? When God credits our faith, as wretched as it may be, as righteousness, He sets us apart spiritually in Christ, our individual election for salvation.

Why do we love Him. Because He first loved us, and demonstrated that love for us by dying for our sins on the cross. We were drawn when we beheld Him high and lifted up.

We have no faith in us being sinners with sin natures, so the Spirit Himself must first regenate and impart to us so called saving faith!

 

[Van]

His view is John Wesley 101...

Pay absolutely no attention to Y1 unless he provides a quote.

 

[Yeshua1]

I do not know why you said "faith is something everyone has?" I certainly never said nor suggested such fiction. I do believe most everyone starts our with the capacity to trust or not in the promises of God. But Matthew 13 teaches that some, soil #1 have so hardened their hearts they cannot understand the gospel, so they have lost their ability to believe in the promises of God. But the other three soils of Matthew 13 have the capacity to hear and learn.

God determines which of the individuals who go "all in" for Christ, and does not credit as righteousness those with no "root" (superficial faith) and those who continue to treasure worldly things in addition to Christ. When you see a verse that says the gospel is hidden from those who are perishing, I believe this is in reference to those soil #1 types.

Can we decide to accept Jesus ourselves, exercising faith, or must we first be regenerated by God to even be able to do any of that?

 

[Revmitchell]

We have no faith in us being sinners with sin natures, so the Spirit Himself must first regenate and impart to us so called saving faith!

No we do not have faith in us else we would already be saved. That is where the gospel comes in. That is where the power is. The gospel is sufficient.

 

[Van]

We have no faith in us being sinners with sin natures, so the Spirit Himself must first regenate and impart to us so called saving faith!

Utter nonsense. If we are chosen through faith, that means we came to faith, which God credited as righteousness, before we were chosen, placed in Christ, and made alive (regenerated) together with Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

Pay absolutely no attention to Y1 unless he provides a quote.

Ephesians 2:8-10 contridicts your arguement for saving faith!

 

[Yeshua1]

No we do not have faith in us else we would already be saved. That is where the gospel comes in. That is where the power is. The gospel is sufficient.

The Holy Spirit produces that new heart in us thru the scriptures, but God has not chosen to have all sinners saved by the Gospel, has he?

 

[Yeshua1]

Utter nonsense. If we are chosen through faith, that means we came to faith, which God credited as righteousness, before we were chosen, placed in Christ, and made alive (regenerated) together with Christ.

Before the foundation of the earth, as God chose to save his own nased upon His own will, period!

 

[Particular]

I do not know why you said "faith is something everyone has?" I certainly never said nor suggested such fiction. I do believe most everyone starts our with the capacity to trust or not in the promises of God. But Matthew 13 teaches that some, soil #1 have so hardened their hearts they cannot understand the gospel, so they have lost their ability to believe in the promises of God. But the other three soils of Matthew 13 have the capacity to hear and learn.

God determines which of the individuals who go "all in" for Christ, and does not credit as righteousness those with no "root" (superficial faith) and those who continue to treasure worldly things in addition to Christ. When you see a verse that says the gospel is hidden from those who are perishing, I believe this is in reference to those soil #1 types.

Hmmm....it seems you are mixing metaphors. I'm not sure how the parable of the sower defines who has faith. Also the idea of hardened heart seems to imply that all are born with soft hearts and time changes that.
Is faith waiting in the heart and the condition of the heart determines whose faith grows and whose faith dies?

 

[Yeshua1]

Hmmm....it seems you are mixing metaphors. I'm not sure how the parable of the sower defines who has faith. Also the idea of hardened heart seems to imply that all are born with soft hearts and time changes that.
Is faith waiting in the heart and the condition of the heart determines whose faith grows and whose faith dies?

Van thinks 3 of the 4 soiuls were getting saved, while most hold to just the last group as showing true salvation!

 

[Van]

Hmmm....it seems you are mixing metaphors. I'm not sure how the parable of the sower defines who has faith. Also the idea of hardened heart seems to imply that all are born with soft hearts and time changes that.
Is faith waiting in the heart and the condition of the heart determines whose faith grows and whose faith dies?

1) I am not mixing any metaphors.
2) The Parable of the Sower defines that some individuals, soil #1, are unable to understand the gospel.
3) Right, God would not have needed to harden hearts in Romans 11, if they all were unable to believe. This this passage proves once again the doctrine of "total spiritual inability" for all people due to the fall is bogus.
4. To repeat we do not start with "faith." We choose to believe, thus we have the capacity to believe unless our hearts have been hardened. Ask yourself how the god of this world has blinded people with everyone starts out blind?

So if we are exposed to the gospel, and we were open to God's word, and we choose to put our faith wholly in Christ, then we have gained access to God's saving grace, Romans 5:1-2. If God chooses to credit our faith, as worthless as it might be, as righteousness, He sets us apart in Christ, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

"All that the Father gives Me" refers to God setting a person apart in Christ, with the promise they will not be cast out.

 

[Van]

Van thinks 3 of the 4 soiuls were getting saved, while most hold to just the last group as showing true salvation!

Yet another absolute falsehood, pay no attention to this fiction. He is posting nonstop disinformation to derail discuss of John 6:37

 

[Particular]

1) I am not mixing any metaphors.
2) The Parable of the Sower defines that some individuals, soil #1, are unable to understand the gospel.
3) Right, God would not have needed to harden hearts in Romans 11, if they all were unable to believe. This this passage proves once again the doctrine of "total spiritual inability" for all people due to the fall is bogus.
4. To repeat we do not start with "faith." We choose to believe, thus we have the capacity to believe unless our hearts have been hardened.

So if we are exposed to the gospel, and we were open to God's word, and we choose to put our faith wholly in Christ, then we have gained access to God's saving grace, Romans 5:1-2. If God chooses to credit our faith, as worthless as it might be, as righteousness, He sets us apart in Christ, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

"All that the Father gives Me" refers to God setting a person apart in Christ, with the promise they will not be cast out.

Thanks for the clarification. I interpret what you say to mean: Humans create their own faith and God either blesses their creation or curses it. You may clarify further if you wish.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thanks for the clarification. I interpret what you say to mean: Humans create their own faith and God either blesses their creation or curses it. You may clarify further if you wish.

Sinners will be the ones decidiing for God wether he can save them or not!

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another absolute falsehood, pay no attention to this fiction. He is posting nonstop disinformation to derail discuss of John 6:37

You do see 3 of those soils are being saved, correct?

 

[Van]

Thanks for the clarification. I interpret what you say to mean: Humans create their own faith and God either blesses their creation or curses it. You may clarify further if you wish.

Once again, humans do not "create their own faith." Can a person put their faith in God's promises if they have not been exposed to those promises. Why did you leave out God's revealing His promises. Does anyone put their faith in Christ without first being drawn?

My understanding of John 6:37 - (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.