Choice: God or Man - exegete John 6:32-40

[HankD]

How does verse 39 affect the entire passage and how we interpret it?

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

There seems the possibility of losing some of that which the Father has given to Jesus. It is not the Fathers will that any should be lost but this passage does not guarantee that none will be lost who come. It does guarantee that all that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Him. The mystery that all who come shall be saved is revealed later and not revealed in this passage.

John 10
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

The guarantee Jesus projects back to the Father who gave them and guaranteed that they will come to Jesus will also guarantee their salvation because the Father is omnipotent and Jesus and the Father are one.

 

[Particular]

What topic would that be? we are talking about John 6.

"Is Jesus emphasizing God choosing men or Men choosing God in John 6:32-40? "

Jesus starts off with hey you guys aren't looking for me because I did some fancy miracle but because you finally got something to eat. Instead of seeking that food thats just gonna leave you hungry tomorrow how about you seek the food that endures eternally.
Its men choosing God. Jesus is the embodiment of God choosing men. If the ball was solely in God's court its meaningless gibberish for him to convince people to seek the bread of life.

If it was only on God this is all need be said: " If God likes you than you will be saved, If Jesus Christ has a unconditional hatred of your soul then you will be damned, The End, have a great day"

Look I said it effectively perfect in one line. I'm not even God. And Jesus is there trying to "prove" things to them with miracles of ascending to heaven etc.

If God has to push a spiritual button in your soul then he obviously doesn't need miracles for convincing folks.

I can do 1000 miracles God doesn't hit that elect/regenerate button, you are not saved. vice versa. If God hits the regenerate switch it you don't even need miracles.

This common sense folks. If you think we are totally depraved at least when you get born again make sure to get your common sense regenerated.

So would your point of emphasis be on verses 26 and 27? Humans seeking God?

Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”
John 6:26-27

 

[Particular]

Well I cannot do that. I neither study scripture that way nor do I arrive at my understanding of doctrine that way. Calvies like doing that especially Dr. White but it is a flawed way to handle scripture and in fact is taught against in most Seminaries.

Now I can deal with that text but not divorced from other scripture.

I understand. Feel free to sit this one out and observe.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

You focus on verse 36. You state at the end that this does not have direct application for salvation. What direct application does it have? Is it only about ocular vision?

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

You focus on verse 36. You state at the end that this does not have direct application for salvation. What direct application does it have? Is it only about ocular vision?

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

Here is what I said at the end:
"Jesus was addressing the physical senses of man - seeing. Does this passage have direct application for salvation today?

I think not."

I did not make a statement as you say. The question mark indicates otherwise.

And yes, I think this was limited to ocular vision.

 

[Revmitchell]

Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” They said to him, “Sir, give us this bread always.” Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

The context here is the audience which is the unbelieving Jews and Jesus disciples. The question arises why did the Father not give the unbelieving Jews to Jesus? Some want to read into the passage in an eisegetical fashion that those who do come were predestined. Yet no such thing is ever said in this passage. If we treat this passage properly we must take it within the great context of why Jesus came in this way to begin with. With the cross in view the context of this passage gets painted in a much different way. In fact Paul made this clear in his Epistle to the Corinthians when he said "But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." The Jews were already unbelieving and Jesus was not to reveal Himself to the unbelieving Jews so that God's will may be done.

Now if your read into this passage, in an eisegetical manner, the false doctrine of total inability (of which you have to get from somewhere other than this passage) then you are compelled to see this context as more than just dealing with the unbelieving Jews and the disciples.

 

[Particular]

Here is what I said at the end:
"Jesus was addressing the physical senses of man - seeing. Does this passage have direct application for salvation today?

I think not."

I did not make a statement as you say. The question mark indicates otherwise.

And yes, I think this was limited to ocular vision.

Thanks for clarifying. Just a bit more clarification.
The passage is all about the physical confrontation between Jesus and his listeners. It has nothing to do with salvation and therefore nothing to do with humans choosing God nor God choosing humans. Is that more accurate?
What does the passage mean, in your perspective?

 

[utilyan]

So would your point of emphasis be on verses 26 and 27? Humans seeking God?

Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.”
John 6:26-27

You can't just pick one absolutely
The emphasis of this encounter the chapter is Human response to God. The gospel itself is God's act.

Jesus just being there its not a matter of God seeking men, He already found them.

 

[Dave G]

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

" But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." ( Matthew 13:16 ).

 

[Particular]

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

" But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." ( Matthew 13:16 ).

I don't understand your point.

 

[Reformed]

Would you be more specific please?

Starting in verse 26 Jesus is addressing the multitude. He told them that they only followed Him to have their bellies filled (loaves and fishes). Knowing that this was their motivation, Jesus describes Himself as the "true bread from heaven" and the "Bread of life". Verse 34 reveals that the multitude thought Jesus was describing literal bread. In verse 36 Jesus said, "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe." The reason they did not believe is that they were not given to the Son by the Father, i.e. they were not predestined unto eternal life. Had they been given to the Son by the Father they would have believed Jesus' words.

 

[Particular]

Starting in verse 26 Jesus is addressing the multitude. He told them that they only followed Him to have their bellies filled (loaves and fishes). Knowing that this was their motivation, Jesus describes Himself as the "true bread from heaven" and the "Bread of life". Verse 34 reveals that the multitude thought Jesus was describing literal bread. In verse 36 Jesus said, "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe." The reason they did not believe is that they were not given to the Son by the Father, i.e. they were not predestined unto eternal life. Had they been given to the Son by the Father they would have believed Jesus' words.

Thank you.
So when you read this passage, verse 37 is the key to understanding the passage.
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
Is that accurate?

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe John 6:39 makes it clear that our Lord was speaking of all those individuals predestined to eternal life - the Elect.

Yes, as the key here would be all that the Father give toi Him to be saved, as a certain number, but n ot all who heard Him!

 

[Dave G]

Is Jesus emphasizing God choosing men or Men choosing God in John 6:32-40? Please use the text to explain your position.

Many of the things He says in chapter 6 are spiritual, not physical and not for the carnal mind ( John 6:63, 1 Corinthians 2:14 ).
For example:

" Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:32-40 )


Verse 32: Jesus is answering the Jews that had asked Him, " ...What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat." ( John 6:30-31 ). He is beginning to describe Himself as the "true bread from Heaven" that His Father has given to those that believe.

Verse 33: He then explains that the "bread of God" is He which comes down from Heaven ( Himself ), and gives life ( eternal life, John 17:3 ) to the world.

Verse 34: They say to Him, " Lord, give us this bread". Note: Yes, they called Him "Lord", yet not all that call Christ "Lord" shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven ( Matthew 7:21-23 ).
Verse 35: He then tells them point blank, " I am the bread of life". Now He identifies "coming to Him" and "believing on Him" as the same thing, as well as making spiritual statements about never "hungering" and never "thirsting". Please see Matthew 5:6 for what it is to "hunger and thirst", spiritually, not physically.

Verse 36: Then He tells the Jews that had seen Him ( physically ), that they had also seen Him, but not believed.

Verse 37: Here He makes a declarative statement, which is important because it takes believing on Him and coming to Him, and ties it in with the ones His Father has given to Him...All that the Father gives to Him, shall come to Him. Then He makes the promise that all who come to Him, He will in no wise cast out. This is what some call, "eternal security", in that those who come to Him / believe on Him will not be cast out, into outer darkness ( Matthew 8:12, Matthew 25:30, Revelation 22:15 ).

Verse 38: Jesus tells the crowd that He came down from Heaven to do His Father's will, not His own.

Verse 39: He then tells them what His Father's will is...that of all that He has given to Jesus, He should lose nothing ( once again, "eternal security" for the believer ). He also states that of all that His Father has given to Him, Jesus will raise them up at the last day ( Matthew 24:36-42 ).

Verse 40: Finally, He tells them this spiritual truth ( remember, He told the Jews who had seen Him in verse 36, that they had seen Him ( physically ), but had not believed )...This is the will of His Father who had sent Him, that every one that sees the Son, and believes on Him ( seeing and believing are now identified together ), may have everlasting life, and He again states that He will raise them up at the last day.

Important points:


1) "Seeing is believing".
That is why I gave you the reference for Matthew 13:16.

Not everyone has "ears to hear" and "eyes to see", which is why the majority of the Jews following Him around could see Him, but not believe on Him.
One must "see" Him...have Himself revealed to them by His word and by His Spirit.
Please see Matthew 16:15-17.

2) One must be given to Christ by the Father to "come to Him".
There is no way for a person to believe on Christ, without being first given to the Son by the Father.

3) The Jews were looking for physical bread, having just come from the feeding of the 5,000.
He tells them not to labor for the "meat" that perishes, but for the "meat" ( bread ) that endures unto everlasting life...Himself.

4) Coming to Him and believing on Him are synonymous.

5) He came to do the Father's will, not His own.
This is important, because His Father is the one who gave Him His sheep ( John 10:29 ), and one must be a sheep to come to Him ( John 10:26 ) in belief.

His Father's will was also for Jesus to give His life for the sheep ( John 10:11-18 ).

 

[Reformed]

Thank you.
So when you read this passage, verse 37 is the key to understanding the passage.
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."
Is that accurate?

I would say that is key to understanding the Father's role in predestination. John 6:26-59 contains the context of what Jesus said to the multitude and predestination was only part of that. There were some other things that we glean from this passage. We cannot ignore that Jesus upset the leading Jews who heard His words. They were offended that Jesus said He had come down from heaven (v. 38) because they knew Jesus' parents (v. 42). In v. 44 Jesus restates the role of the Father in predestination. Jesus repeats a tension we seen in vs.26-59 by a) stating that no one can come to the Son unless the Father first gives or draws them. b) belief (faith) is necessary. These could be seen as a contradiction but they are not. Those whom the Father gives to the Son will believe. There is a symbiosis between the two.

 

[Dave G]

Is Jesus emphasizing God choosing men or Men choosing God in John 6:32-40? Please use the text to explain your position.

So, to answer the question, He is emphasizing God choosing men to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Van]

Hi Particular:
I have found no passage of scripture that conflicts with this understanding of John 6:37 - (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

Steps 2 and 3 comprise our individual election for salvation, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, which says “… God has chosen you from the beginning [of the New Covenant] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit (being set apart in Christ) and faith in the Truth. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” When God chooses to credit our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:5) He then gives us to Christ by spiritually placing us in Christ, thus “all that the Father gives Me” are saved forever. OTOH, just because we choose to trust in Christ does not mean God will choose to credit that faith as righteousness. Thus we do not earn or merit salvation by our choosing, salvation is God's choice alone.

So if we are exposed to the gospel, and we were open to God's word, and we choose to put our faith wholly in Christ, then we have gained access to God's saving grace, Romans 5:1-2. If God chooses to credit our faith, as worthless as it might be, as righteousness, He sets us apart in Christ, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

"All that the Father gives Me" refers to God setting a person apart in Christ, with the promise they will not be cast out.

 

[Particular]

Hi Particular:
I have found no passage of scripture that conflicts with this understanding of John 6:37 - (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

Steps 2 and 3 comprise our individual election for salvation, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, which says “… God has chosen you from the beginning [of the New Covenant] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit (being set apart in Christ) and faith in the Truth. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” When God chooses to credit our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:5) He then gives us to Christ by spiritually placing us in Christ, thus “all that the Father gives Me” are saved forever. OTOH, just because we choose to trust in Christ does not mean God will choose to credit that faith as righteousness. Thus we do not earn or merit salvation by our choosing, salvation is God's choice alone.

So if we are exposed to the gospel, and we were open to God's word, and we choose to put our faith wholly in Christ, then we have gained access to God's saving grace, Romans 5:1-2. If God chooses to credit our faith, as worthless as it might be, as righteousness, He sets us apart in Christ, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

"All that the Father gives Me" refers to God setting a person apart in Christ, with the promise they will not be cast out.

Van, as you exegete this passage do you consider faith an action generated by the will of men or an action generated by God gifting people faith? In reading your explanation, I couldn't quite determine where you think faith comes from. Could you clarify this for me? I think I understand the rest of your explanation.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Thanks for clarifying. Just a bit more clarification.
The passage is all about the physical confrontation between Jesus and his listeners. It has nothing to do with salvation and therefore nothing to do with humans choosing God nor God choosing humans. Is that more accurate?
What does the passage mean, in your perspective?

Christ is addressing Jews who have deep knowledge of Old Testament prophecy concerning the coming of their Messiah. Jesus fulfilled all of those prophecies and He is calling them to task for not acknowledging who He is.

He declares that those His Father has chosen will come to Him for salvation.

All though they seem to be ignorant of the fact they, by rejecting Him, are fulfilling prophecy.

[Isa 53:3 KJV] 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Hopefully, other more knowledgeable board members will correct me if my understanding is in error.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hi Particular:
I have found no passage of scripture that conflicts with this understanding of John 6:37 - (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.

Steps 2 and 3 comprise our individual election for salvation, according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, which says “… God has chosen you from the beginning [of the New Covenant] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit (being set apart in Christ) and faith in the Truth. And it was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.” When God chooses to credit our faith as righteousness (Romans 4:5) He then gives us to Christ by spiritually placing us in Christ, thus “all that the Father gives Me” are saved forever. OTOH, just because we choose to trust in Christ does not mean God will choose to credit that faith as righteousness. Thus we do not earn or merit salvation by our choosing, salvation is God's choice alone.

So if we are exposed to the gospel, and we were open to God's word, and we choose to put our faith wholly in Christ, then we have gained access to God's saving grace, Romans 5:1-2. If God chooses to credit our faith, as worthless as it might be, as righteousness, He sets us apart in Christ, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

"All that the Father gives Me" refers to God setting a person apart in Christ, with the promise they will not be cast out.

Do all sinners have inate faith, does God give that to all, or just to His own?

 

[Van]

Van, as you exegete this passage do you consider faith an action generated by the will of men or an action generated by God gifting people faith? In reading your explanation, I couldn't quite determine where you think faith comes from. Could you clarify this for me? I think I understand the rest of your explanation.

As you may know, the fiction that people cannot choose to trust in God and His Christ, has no support in scripture. Romans 4:4-5 indicates the person, once aware of God's promises, including the gospel, can with his or her God given capacity to trust, choose to trust fully, in part or not at all in those promises.

Scripture says close to a dozen times "his faith" or "your faith" but never says your "God given faith." So faith comes from hearing (or becoming aware) of the promises of God, and then choosing to trust in them.

The idea we must be compelled to believe is just another fiction.

My understanding of John 6:37 - (1) God draws people with the gospel message, (2) some of these hear (understand) the message and believe (having learned), (3) God gives those whose faith He credits as righteousness to Christ, (4) all those God gives in this matter are spiritually placed in Christ (arrive in Christ), and (5) everyone that comes to Jesus in this manner is saved forever.