Choosing a seminary

[Havensdad]

The Big Six will not go to exclusively online M.Div programs anytime in the near or distant future. ATS is simply way too hesitant to accredit these programs, and the Big Six are too steeped in the traditional model. They feel that letting someone take 30 hours onilne is plenty. Remember, you can do a M.Div at any one of the Big Six with only 30 hours on campus, and an extension center counts as a campus. So they believe they are bending over backwards as it is. Whether you agree or not, it is what it is.

No offense to Havensdad, but ten years ago someone told me what you did. It didn't happen last year :tongue3: Won't happen a decade from now, barring some financial situation that would make not doing it untenable.

But look what has happened. The Seminaries, and ATS, have moved FAR beyond what they were willing to do 10 years ago. As you know, one SBC Seminary is now offering an all online Masters through their undergrad institution.

As the older folks retire, and younger folks take over, that grew up in the digital age; a group more comfortable with texting, online discussions, skype, etc., the change will occur. I guarantee it.

In fact, you hit one major point, perhaps unwittingly. The SBC Seminaries, all but Southern I believe, are experiencing declines in enrollment. This is due, at least partially, to regionally accredited institutions like Liberty, and other institutions that are either Nationally accredited through TRACS or DETC, that offer degrees 100 percent through distance. This trend is going to continue; thus as technology advances, enrollment continues to decline, and these ATS organizations realize they can no longer compete, they will change their mind.

In fact, I have already heard murmurings about ATS further relaxing their on campus requirements. If I was a betting man, and I'm not, I would lay you pretty good odd on the ten years timeline.

 

[TomVols]

I haven't seen that much movement. They're still pretty rigid about their requirements for campus residency.

As you know, one SBC Seminary is now offering an all online Masters through their undergrad institution.

Technically, that's not entirely true. It's being offered through the college at Midwestern, which is not ATS eligible. Also, this is not considered a preperatory degree (like the M.Div, ThM, etc.) for ministry, though that's somewhat arbitrary.

In fact, you hit one major point, perhaps unwittingly. The SBC Seminaries, all but Southern I believe, are experiencing declines in enrollment. This is due, at least partially, to regionally accredited institutions like Liberty, and other institutions that are either Nationally accredited through TRACS or DETC, that offer degrees 100 percent through distance. This trend is going to continue; thus as technology advances, enrollment continues to decline, and these ATS organizations realize they can no longer compete, they will change their mind.

I think when and if this occurs, this may happen but something would have to happen first: the ATS would have to change its mind, something its reticent to do. Also, I don't agree that the declining enrollment is automatically linked to the flocking of students to DL programs. There just aren't that many men seeking theological education. Case in point: the year I surrendered to my calling, two other men from my church did the same. All three of us pursued theological education. 5 years ago, 3 more men in that same church yielded to a call. None as of this day have taken one class online or on campus. In our home association, 60% of those called to ministry in the 90s went on to seminary. In the 2000s, less than 5% did so either DL or RL. Fewer men are responding, and far fewer are pursuing any theological education. Research leads me to conclude this is not a blip.

I would like to see competition and would like to see some openness in our theological model. However, some major seismic shifts will have to occur. We'll see.

 

[StefanM]

I haven't seen that much movement. They're still pretty rigid about their requirements for campus residency. Technically, that's not entirely true. It's being offered through the college at Midwestern, which is not ATS eligible. Also, this is not considered a preperatory degree (like the M.Div, ThM, etc.) for ministry, though that's somewhat arbitrary. I think when and if this occurs, this may happen but something would have to happen first: the ATS would have to change its mind, something its reticent to do. Also, I don't agree that the declining enrollment is automatically linked to the flocking of students to DL programs. There just aren't that many men seeking theological education. Case in point: the year I surrendered to my calling, two other men from my church did the same. All three of us pursued theological education. 5 years ago, 3 more men in that same church yielded to a call. None as of this day have taken one class online or on campus. In our home association, 60% of those called to ministry in the 90s went on to seminary. In the 2000s, less than 5% did so either DL or RL. Fewer men are responding, and far fewer are pursuing any theological education. Research leads me to conclude this is not a blip.

I would like to see competition and would like to see some openness in our theological model. However, some major seismic shifts will have to occur. We'll see.

I'm not a big fan of our current theological model for a few reasons:

1) The lack of federal financial aid at 5 of the 6 SBC Seminaries. Sure, student loans aren't the best option, but they definitely beat starving. They also beat neglecting your family as you work three jobs to pay tuition and make ends meet. Repayment isn't as much of an issue, as income-based repayment and public service loan forgiveness programs have greatly assisted individuals with limited incomes.

2) Moving people to a centralized area deprives more remote areas of God-called ministers. For example, in Fort Worth, TX, you can't throw a rock without hitting 12 preachers. Especially in poorer areas of the country, it is difficult to attract a seminary-trained minister. More flexible options can provide training without requiring individuals to leave their church contexts.

3) I have made my disdain for ATS abundantly clear. Evangelical institutions have no business in a theological educational agency with apostates and unbelievers. IMO, desire for credibility has harmed the mission. The mission of a seminary is to train ministers for biblical ministry, not to satisfy the whims of an elitist accrediting agency. I have no problem with accreditation agencies, but I really think there should be an evangelical alternative to ATS. Otherwise, they should just stick with regional accreditation. I don't have a problem with secular accreditation agencies because they aren't specifically designed to oversee ministerial preparation.

4) The current model of theological education is bloated. I see no reason for an MDiv as a requirement. I think we would be much better off by shifting many of the practical elements to internships and/or mentoring relationships.

 

[Havensdad]

I'm not a big fan of our current theological model for a few reasons:

1) The lack of federal financial aid at 5 of the 6 SBC Seminaries. Sure, student loans aren't the best option, but they definitely beat starving. They also beat neglecting your family as you work three jobs to pay tuition and make ends meet. Repayment isn't as much of an issue, as income-based repayment and public service loan forgiveness programs have greatly assisted individuals with limited incomes.

2) Moving people to a centralized area deprives more remote areas of God-called ministers. For example, in Fort Worth, TX, you can't throw a rock without hitting 12 preachers. Especially in poorer areas of the country, it is difficult to attract a seminary-trained minister. More flexible options can provide training without requiring individuals to leave their church contexts.

3) I have made my disdain for ATS abundantly clear. Evangelical institutions have no business in a theological educational agency with apostates and unbelievers. IMO, desire for credibility has harmed the mission. The mission of a seminary is to train ministers for biblical ministry, not to satisfy the whims of an elitist accrediting agency. I have no problem with accreditation agencies, but I really think there should be an evangelical alternative to ATS. Otherwise, they should just stick with regional accreditation. I don't have a problem with secular accreditation agencies because they aren't specifically designed to oversee ministerial preparation.

4) The current model of theological education is bloated. I see no reason for an MDiv as a requirement. I think we would be much better off by shifting many of the practical elements to internships and/or mentoring relationships.

Darn it! I was cheering until point #4. If anything, I think the educational requirement for pastors is too weak. The current "spiritual discipline" type classes (which don't really teach anything, but just try to get people into a practice of doing the things they should already being doing), and other "practical" type classes should be eliminated in favor of internship/mentoring...but they should be replaced by more rigorous language programs, classes in advanced argumentation and logic/philosophy, and Biblical competency.

 

[StefanM]

Darn it! I was cheering until point #4. If anything, I think the educational requirement for pastors is too weak. The current "spiritual discipline" type classes (which don't really teach anything, but just try to get people into a practice of doing the things they should already being doing), and other "practical" type classes should be eliminated in favor of internship/mentoring...but they should be replaced by more rigorous language programs, classes in advanced argumentation and logic/philosophy, and Biblical competency.

That's fine. You could accomplish much of this in 50-60 hours though. A full MDiv isn't really necessary. Also, it is important to remember that if we make the requirements too strenuous, some people will be unable to complete it. God doesn't only call individuals with 4.0 GPAs and high IQs. Higher studies could be available for those with the academic aptitude.

 

[michaelbowe]

That's fine. You could accomplish much of this in 50-60 hours though. A full MDiv isn't really necessary. Also, it is important to remember that if we make the requirements too strenuous, some people will be unable to complete it. God doesn't only call individuals with 4.0 GPAs and high IQs. Higher studies could be available for those with the academic aptitude.

Not all Seminaries require 4.0s. Liberty didn't for me, and niether did BTSR, where I started. I'm currently working on my Ph.D. which accepted me, with a 3.0 GPA...that is rare. There are some places out there that understand GPA doesn't necessarily mean academic aptitude.

 

[StefanM]

Not all Seminaries require 4.0s. Liberty didn't for me, and niether did BTSR, where I started. I'm currently working on my Ph.D. which accepted me, with a 3.0 GPA...that is rare. There are some places out there that understand GPA doesn't necessarily mean academic aptitude.

My point isn't the GPA; it's the rigor required.

Sure, we could require Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and German for all MDiv students. We could also require a thesis for all candidates. We could require 18 hours of undergraduate prerequisite hours in religion. We could go on and on. The problem, though, is that all of these things are great for the stronger students. The average student (who is not suited for PhD-level studies) would be marginalized and likely wouldn't even bother to apply. Even fewer people would pursue theological education. Once this bled through the system, we would have a pastoral shortage that would enable candidates to receive a call to an increasing number of churches without a seminary degree. Over time, it would result in degree deflation, and seminary wouldn't even be considered as a serious option.

 

[michaelbowe]

My point isn't the GPA; it's the rigor required.

Sure, we could require Greek, Hebrew, Latin, and German for all MDiv students. We could also require a thesis for all candidates. We could require 18 hours of undergraduate prerequisite hours in religion. We could go on and on. The problem, though, is that all of these things are great for the stronger students. The average student (who is not suited for PhD-level studies) would be marginalized and likely wouldn't even bother to apply. Even fewer people would pursue theological education. Once this bled through the system, we would have a pastoral shortage that would enable candidates to receive a call to an increasing number of churches without a seminary degree. Over time, it would result in degree deflation, and seminary wouldn't even be considered as a serious option.

So, your issue is the rigor, or requirements? Most seminaries do not require anything. That is why people with Bible college educations have to go through some redundant classes. I understand your wondering about a degree being deflated because no one can measure up, but seminary needs to challenge the average.

 

[TomVols]

Stefan wrote:

1) The lack of federal financial aid at 5 of the 6 SBC Seminaries. Sure, student loans aren't the best option, but they definitely beat starving. They also beat neglecting your family as you work three jobs to pay tuition and make ends meet. Repayment isn't as much of an issue, as income-based repayment and public service loan forgiveness programs have greatly assisted individuals with limited incomes.

I agree. I'd pick at two things: one, financial aid is often theadbare Federally whenever you do grad work, so this is no shock. That said, if students wish to incur debt, so be it. But this is complex. Ministerial student default rates are often higher than in other majors and areas, and if your school exceeds a certain default rate, you lose financial aid of all sorts. It's closed a couple of schools here locally, and caused some to drop fed loans with a gun pointed at their heads.

2) Moving people to a centralized area deprives more remote areas of God-called ministers. For example, in Fort Worth, TX, you can't throw a rock without hitting 12 preachers. Especially in poorer areas of the country, it is difficult to attract a seminary-trained minister. More flexible options can provide training without requiring individuals to leave their church contexts.

On the surface, this is appealing. However, this same argument could be made for any field of stud (Think the law school student who leaves his town of 800 to go to State Capital U Law School, and lands a job in a city). It doesn't wash. I came from a rural area, went to seminary, and went back to that rural area. Just because someone moves to study somewhere doesn't mean they leave where they came from forever.

3) I have made my disdain for ATS abundantly clear. Evangelical institutions have no business in a theological educational agency with apostates and unbelievers. IMO, desire for credibility has harmed the mission. The mission of a seminary is to train ministers for biblical ministry, not to satisfy the whims of an elitist accrediting agency. I have no problem with accreditation agencies, but I really think there should be an evangelical alternative to ATS. Otherwise, they should just stick with regional accreditation. I don't have a problem with secular accreditation agencies because they aren't specifically designed to oversee ministerial preparation.

I agree. ATS was rendered toothless when the SB seminaries threatened to walk away en masse after the ATS tried to bully SBTS over the Carver school. SB seminaries should've done what they threatened to do: form their own accrediting agency similar to ATS. They would've had an evangelical following that eventually could've gotten acceptance by the counseling and chaplaincy fields though it would've taken time.

4) The current model of theological education is bloated. I see no reason for an MDiv as a requirement. I think we would be much better off by shifting many of the practical elements to internships and/or mentoring relationships.

Like Havensdad, I disagree. However, you did say:

That's fine. You could accomplish much of this in 50-60 hours though. A full MDiv isn't really necessary.

Agreed, unless someone does not have a BA/BS in Religion, etc. So much of the M.Div was repetitive for me because my BA was basically copycat of a M.Div program (36 hours of Bible, 12 hours of Theology (plus electives), six hours of Church History, 12 hrs of languages...I could go on). To ask me to do 90 hours is ridiculous. Now, to ask the Finance major to do that is not. The Advanced M.Divs were great ideas, but they simply are not practically designed, thus they've floundered.

 

[StefanM]

Stefan wrote: I agree. I'd pick at two things: one, financial aid is often theadbare Federally whenever you do grad work, so this is no shock. That said, if students wish to incur debt, so be it. But this is complex. Ministerial student default rates are often higher than in other majors and areas, and if your school exceeds a certain default rate, you lose financial aid of all sorts. It's closed a couple of schools here locally, and caused some to drop fed loans with a gun pointed at their heads.

Well, if the loans were dropped in the future, it would simply return them to the status quo of today. The advent of income-based repayment has altered the default scenario, however. For instance, a couple with an income of $40,000 and two children with $45,000 in loans would only pay approximately $80 per month under IBR. If they spend 10 years in non-profit service, they can qualify for public service loan forgiveness of the remaining balance.

On the surface, this is appealing. However, this same argument could be made for any field of stud (Think the law school student who leaves his town of 800 to go to State Capital U Law School, and lands a job in a city). It doesn't wash. I came from a rural area, went to seminary, and went back to that rural area. Just because someone moves to study somewhere doesn't mean they leave where they came from forever.

You are one individual, though. This would be something worthy of statistical analysis.

I agree. ATS was rendered toothless when the SB seminaries threatened to walk away en masse after the ATS tried to bully SBTS over the Carver school. SB seminaries should've done what they threatened to do: form their own accrediting agency similar to ATS. They would've had an evangelical following that eventually could've gotten acceptance by the counseling and chaplaincy fields though it would've taken time.

Exactly.

Like Havensdad, I disagree. However, you did say: Agreed, unless someone does not have a BA/BS in Religion, etc. So much of the M.Div was repetitive for me because my BA was basically copycat of a M.Div program (36 hours of Bible, 12 hours of Theology (plus electives), six hours of Church History, 12 hrs of languages...I could go on). To ask me to do 90 hours is ridiculous. Now, to ask the Finance major to do that is not. The Advanced M.Divs were great ideas, but they simply are not practically designed, thus they've floundered.

I think we would be best served by having an MDiv based on about 50-60 hours with an undergraduate religion degree as a prerequisite. For those with a non-religion BA, a year (30 hours) of undergraduate study could lead to a BTh (or something similar) and subsequent entrance into the MDiv. Also, students who have not finished a college degree could matriculate into the BTh.

I have an undergraduate degree in ministry, so I can relate. I have taken 18 hours of seminary courses, and almost all of it was rehashing ground covered as an undergraduate. I have since pursued a different academic track (higher education), but I can definitely understand the frustration.

 

[GraceClarified]

Masters

Stefan wrote:
Like Havensdad, I disagree. However, you did say: Agreed, unless someone does not have a BA/BS in Religion, etc. So much of the M.Div was repetitive for me because my BA was basically copycat of a M.Div program (36 hours of Bible, 12 hours of Theology (plus electives), six hours of Church History, 12 hrs of languages...I could go on). To ask me to do 90 hours is ridiculous. Now, to ask the Finance major to do that is not. The Advanced M.Divs were great ideas, but they simply are not practically designed, thus they've floundered.

I have about 52 hours of bible/theology/ministry and history of Christianity from my undergrad. I also fail to see the connect of needing another 90+ hours in masters level seminary. My wife would probably agree. Even after I finish my masters I fully know I will be a life time learner, especially in the field of theology.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

My M.Div. was repetitive too, but isn't there something for reinforcement, even in those cases? I get it. It aint easy to have a family, a ministry, and studies. When I get frustrated I think "Maybe it aint supposed to be easy..."

 

[StefanM]

My M.Div. was repetitive too, but isn't there something for reinforcement, even in those cases? I get it. It aint easy to have a family, a ministry, and studies. When I get frustrated I think "Maybe it aint supposed to be easy..."

It's not supposed to be easy, but it shouldn't be difficult for the sake of difficulty.

 

[TCGreek]

I did an M.A. the traditional way. Then chose Liberty for my M.Div, which I completed at a 3.5. Some of the classes were overlaps, classes I had taken before during my M.A. program.

I was able to transfer 42 credits and only required me to take 51, with only one of those classes being an elective. 48hrs were required.

For online schooling, I would recommend Liberty.

 

[Havensdad]

Personally, I would like to see a degree which required a 1-2 credit class(post Hebrew/Greek), for every single book in the Bible, either in undergrad or Grad. In other words, when the student has graduated, they have studied through, and preached from (at least once) every single book of the scriptures . That may be a bit much, but I think it is indicative of the rigor required.

 

[GraceClarified]

Liberty

Change of topic regarding Liberty.

I have heard Liberty is anti-Calvinistic. Did that idea go out the door with Caner? Is there any truth to this?

 

[TCGreek]

Personally, I would like to see a degree which required a 1-2 credit class(post Hebrew/Greek), for every single book in the Bible, either in undergrad or Grad. In other words, when the student has graduated, they have studied through, and preached from (at least once) every single book of the scriptures . That may be a bit much, but I think it is indicative of the rigor required.

Depending on the school, M.Div requirements differ. A colleague, who chose Fuller seminary for his M.Div. , and I continue to compare notes on these matters.

 

[Havensdad]

Change of topic regarding Liberty.

I have heard Liberty is anti-Calvinistic. Did that idea go out the door with Caner? Is there any truth to this?

They certainly don't teach from that viewpoint, but they have never been "anti-calvinistic" in my opinion. A couple of my professors were, in fact, Calvinists. I wrote a paper defending the Calvinist view of Sovereignty, and got a high "A"...

 

[michaelbowe]

Change of topic regarding Liberty.

I have heard Liberty is anti-Calvinistic. Did that idea go out the door with Caner? Is there any truth to this?

I graduated from Liberty with my M.Div. I think it is like any other institution. You will have some that teach anti-Calvinist, others that will not.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

Personally, I would like to see a degree which required a 1-2 credit class(post Hebrew/Greek), for every single book in the Bible, either in undergrad or Grad. In other words, when the student has graduated, they have studied through, and preached from (at least once) every single book of the scriptures . That may be a bit much, but I think it is indicative of the rigor required.

I agree. That was one of the most valuable parts of my undergraduate degree with Liberty. The Senior Pastor at the church where I interned for 2 years after leaving the military commented as I was watching a video lecture toward the end of my undergraduate degree, "I wish I had got that level of biblical study while I was in Seminary." Where he went (Lexington Theological Seminary) the bulk of his study as he recalled it was leadership, management, etc. Preachers lead, but our leadership is so intrinsically connected to our preaching and expositing the word of God. The Bible should be our focus in study.

Perhaps there could be different "paths" in an M.Div. degree plan which allowed for the fact that some students have a B.A. in accounting while others (like me) did a B.S. in Religion (Bible / Theology).

Just as a school offers an M.Div. in chaplaincy, counseling, or other emphasis, why not something that accounts for that. Liberty took a bunch of advanced standing into account which was helpful (15 credit hours I think from B.S. to M.A. and the same from M.A. to M.Div.).