Choosing a seminary

[Crucified in Christ]

I agree. ATS was rendered toothless when the SB seminaries threatened to walk away en masse after the ATS tried to bully SBTS over the Carver school. SB seminaries should've done what they threatened to do: form their own accrediting agency similar to ATS. They would've had an evangelical following that eventually could've gotten acceptance by the counseling and chaplaincy fields though it would've taken time.

I could not agree more!!!

 

[Crucified in Christ]

Liberty took a bunch of advanced standing into account which was helpful (15 credit hours I think from B.S. to M.A. and the same from M.A. to M.Div.).

Pilgrim-

Just curious. Did you do your undergrad at Liberty? If so, are you saying that they applied 15 of your hours from the B.S. in Religion Degree toward one of the Seminary MA degrees? I had someone ask about Liberty's policy in this regard; your answer would be a very timely help. God bless.

 

[michaelbowe]

Pilgrim-

Just curious. Did you do your undergrad at Liberty? If so, are you saying that they applied 15 of your hours from the B.S. in Religion Degree toward one of the Seminary MA degrees? I had someone ask about Liberty's policy in this regard; your answer would be a very timely help. God bless.

Liberty gives up to so many hours depending on the seminary degree you pursue if you have a religious/Bible education. My B.S. is in Bible Ministry, but from another institution and I had 30 hours applied to my M.Div.

 

[StefanM]

Pilgrim-

Just curious. Did you do your undergrad at Liberty? If so, are you saying that they applied 15 of your hours from the B.S. in Religion Degree toward one of the Seminary MA degrees? I had someone ask about Liberty's policy in this regard; your answer would be a very timely help. God bless.

FYI...Liberty just changed their policy on this. They no longer grant advanced standing. That's what they told me when I asked about three weeks ago.

 

[TomVols]

Stefan wrote:

Well, if the loans were dropped in the future, it would simply return them to the status quo of today. The advent of income-based repayment has altered the default scenario, however. For instance, a couple with an income of $40,000 and two children with $45,000 in loans would only pay approximately $80 per month under IBR. If they spend 10 years in non-profit service, they can qualify for public service loan forgiveness of the remaining balance.

But that assumes the folks try to repay the loans and susequently qualify for ICR. If you don't, you default. So I see the point. I don't agree, but I see it.

This would be something worthy of statistical analysis.

Most of the folks I went to seminary with ended up in very similar situations to what they left. Again, that's situational. It is worthy of investigation.

I think we would be best served by having an MDiv based on about 50-60 hours with an undergraduate religion degree as a prerequisite. For those with a non-religion BA, a year (30 hours) of undergraduate study could lead to a BTh (or something similar) and subsequent entrance into the MDiv. Also, students who have not finished a college degree could matriculate into the BTh.

I have an undergraduate degree in ministry, so I can relate. I have taken 18 hours of seminary courses, and almost all of it was rehashing ground covered as an undergraduate. I have since pursued a different academic track (higher education), but I can definitely understand the frustration.

I'd like to see two options:
1. M.Div if you have a BA/BS in Religion that's 60 hrs, let's say. It's an additional 30 hours of leveling courses (similar to what MBA students have to do without a BS in Business) for those without such.
2. The M.Div is for non-religion undergrads, while the ThM should be for BA/BS Religion students. ThM would be 60-75 hrs, and could be a thesis or non-thesis option. I don't know how tenable this is as the M.Div is the gold standard.

PilgrimPastor:

My M.Div. was repetitive too, but isn't there something for reinforcement, even in those cases? I get it. It aint easy to have a family, a ministry, and studies. When I get frustrated I think "Maybe it aint supposed to be easy..."

But is it wise stewardship of time and money to pay for all that refresher? I took undergrad courses in business and have 30 hrs towards the MBA. The grad level courses in business go deeper than just refresher or reinforcement. My seminary experience, while worth it, was very repetitive. I would've been better served by taking, say an advanced NT and a NT elective than to take NT 1 and NT 2 all over again.

Havensdad"

Personally, I would like to see a degree which required a 1-2 credit class(post Hebrew/Greek), for every single book in the Bible, either in undergrad or Grad. In other words, when the student has graduated, they have studied through, and preached from (at least once) every single book of the scriptures . That may be a bit much, but I think it is indicative of the rigor required.

Dallas Seminary believes they lean in that direction. I sort of like their program. If only it were offered at SBTS :laugh:

 

[michaelbowe]

FYI...Liberty just changed their policy on this. They no longer grant advanced standing. That's what they told me when I asked about three weeks ago.

Wow, you are right! I am glad I finished my degree already. The military did not like the Chaplains getting "short cut" degrees. So Liberty did away with it. I do not like this decision. My M.Div was not shorted anything. I did not have to take some classes that would have been redundant, but I guess they have to comply.

 

[StefanM]

Stefan wrote: But that assumes the folks try to repay the loans and susequently qualify for ICR. If you don't, you default. So I see the point. I don't agree, but I see it.

IBR is different than ICR. IBR is a much more flexible program, and you can start on it from day one of repayment by submitting the paperwork during the 6 month grace period.

Most of the folks I went to seminary with ended up in very similar situations to what they left. Again, that's situational. It is worthy of investigation. I'd like to see two options:
1. M.Div if you have a BA/BS in Religion that's 60 hrs, let's say. It's an additional 30 hours of leveling courses (similar to what MBA students have to do without a BS in Business) for those without such.
2. The M.Div is for non-religion undergrads, while the ThM should be for BA/BS Religion students. ThM would be 60-75 hrs, and could be a thesis or non-thesis option. I don't know how tenable this is as the M.Div is the gold standard.

That would work. The ThM is a higher degree than the M.Div, though, and I don't think it hurts the DTS graduates.

 

[Havensdad]

Wow, you are right! I am glad I finished my degree already. The military did not like the Chaplains getting "short cut" degrees. So Liberty did away with it. I do not like this decision. My M.Div was not shorted anything. I did not have to take some classes that would have been redundant, but I guess they have to comply.

To be fair, you can still use ICE exams to do the same things for many classes.

 

[PilgrimPastor]

Pilgrim-

Just curious. Did you do your undergrad at Liberty? If so, are you saying that they applied 15 of your hours from the B.S. in Religion Degree toward one of the Seminary MA degrees? I had someone ask about Liberty's policy in this regard; your answer would be a very timely help. God bless.

I did the B.S. Religion and they applied at least 15 credit hours of Bible / Theology courses as advanced standing. I'm pretty sure it was 15 from the B.S. into the M.A.R. (Church Ministry) It may have been more from undergraduate to graduate but I'm pretty sure it was 15 and positive that it was 15 from M.A. to M.Div.

Then they did the same into the M.Div. So all together, it just sort of knocked my M.Div. from 90 to 75 hours. Given that almost all of my undergraduate was in Bible / Ministry / Theology / Philosophy / Leadership / etc. I think it was more than adequate training.

Now, I don't think that they are as free with the advanced standing from other institutions, but they may give some. They used to be a lot more free with credits than they are now. But from LU to LBTS they are (or at least were) really good about advanced standing.