Greektim
Well-Known Member
That's the problem isn't it... their doctoral classes are equally challenging as NOBTS masters level classes? Just sayin'
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Choosing a seminary
- Thread starter GraceClarified
- Start date
As was said before, what is the point of three unaccredited doctorates?
It's not so much like icing. A resume with a BS from LSU and an MDiv from NOBTS is solid. Adding three unaccredited doctorates knocks it down several notches, especially when you could do a DMin from a seminary like Midwestern or Mid-America relatively inexpensively.
These would be known as accreditation mills. I could make up an accreditation agency right now, and it would have just as much recognition.
I'm sure you can learn through ATS, but they do not need to be offering doctoral degrees. There is no point in earning a doctoral degree that is not recognized. The only way anyone can use it is as wall art or a spurious claim to the title "doctor." This is not saying that you won't learn anything in the program--it only means that the credential is worthless.
PreacherBoi
New Member
Who cares?
Who cares what you guys think! My church is proud of me and I got my present church with a D.Min. from ATS on my resume. What matters is not that my degree is accredited in the world's eyes, but that it is accredited in God's eyes. The only person that I have to please is God who placed me in the ministry and he must be pleased because he is blessing me and my ministry!:smilewinkgrin:
Who cares what you guys think! My church is proud of me and I got my present church with a D.Min. from ATS on my resume. What matters is not that my degree is accredited in the world's eyes, but that it is accredited in God's eyes. The only person that I have to please is God who placed me in the ministry and he must be pleased because he is blessing me and my ministry!:smilewinkgrin:
Always nice to see someone come around here with an open mind...
GraceClarified
New Member
DegreeS
Congrats PreacherBoi on your degrees. I grew up in Louisiana and love both LSU and NOBTS. Great schools.
Congrats PreacherBoi on your degrees. I grew up in Louisiana and love both LSU and NOBTS. Great schools.
michaelbowe
Member
I agree with another person's post. What is the point in having three doctorates? Moreover, the unusual nomenclature creates pause. While I'm not accusing Anderson as being a diploma mill, the unusual degrees creates issue. The point of this thread was to discuss possible options for a person considering a MACE. I am proud you enjoyed your experiences at ATS, but I know the doctoral work is not up to par, or else you wouldn't have three. I am working on a Ph.D. and the work is intense! I have a pastor friend, who pastors a large church now, over 4000 members, who had his graduate degrees from a not so respectable institution. However, he didn't get the job based on his degrees, he got it based on his experience. That said, he is redoing his graduate work at accredited seminaries. Distance ed, for the most part, is affordable in many instances, and creates a solid resume. If I saw someone had three doctorates...I would know its not sound.
If I were considering a MACE, I would not go anywhere unaccredited. I assume you want to work in a Christian school, and to obtain certification, accreditation is a must. Usually, Ministers of Education will have a MRE.
Preacherboi, again I am not wanting to attack you, because this is a fellowship forum. I am simply curious because it seems having three doctorates is a little over kill, and makes it seem too easy to obtain. I am glad you had a wonderful experience however, unaccredited degrees would not cut it if I were on a search committee, not with all the accredited distance options available now.
"Accredited in God's eyes"? What does that mean?
You could say that God is blessing Joel Osteen's ministry, too. Perceived success is not necessarily indicative of blessing. Plenty of faithful pastors don't see obvious results.
My question would be this--why pursue doctorates from an unaccredited institution?
Honestly, it seems like the easy way to get the title "doctor."
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PreacherBoi
New Member
ICor. 4:3-4
I Cor. 4:3-4 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgement: yea, I judged not my own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.:wavey:
I Cor. 4:3-4 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgement: yea, I judged not my own self. For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.:wavey:
Paul is not speaking about obtaining unaccredited doctorates (or anything remotely similar) with this verse. Comparing his apostleship to a pursuit of a questionable credential is stretching.
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GraceClarified
New Member
Seminary
Stefanm,
I asked for opinions on seminaries. Which seminaries did you attend? What degrees did you obtain? I also hold the value of accreditation as very important but I don't think attacking others for their educational route is very healthy and loving. Please examine your method my brother in Christ.
Stefanm,
I asked for opinions on seminaries. Which seminaries did you attend? What degrees did you obtain? I also hold the value of accreditation as very important but I don't think attacking others for their educational route is very healthy and loving. Please examine your method my brother in Christ.
I'm sorry while I know you started this thread, I have been following along with great interest as well as I'm starting to go into my prayerful consideration of where God is leading me to do my Masters.
That being said, I do not see any attacking going on at all. I see someone (PreacherBoi) who stated his preference for ATS, and others who are questioning the fact they are non-accredidated and if 3 doctorates from a non-accredidated school means anything. I see StefanM asking PreacherBoi why he would get 3 unaccredited doctorates. It seems like instead of really answering the question PreacherBoi stated that he didn't care what people on here thought, and never really answered the question of why, but simply used "It's Accredited in God's Eyes," as a defense. StefanM seemed to just want clarification on the statement. Similarly I did not appreciate taking a verse way out of context in order to seemingly justify a non accredited school.
My problem with ATS seems to be there is no mention of any teaching credentials of anybody on staff there, in fact on their website they do not mention any staff other than the president.
Anyway, all that being said I appreciate your recommendation and I'm sure you enjoyed your time there. However, why did you feel the need for 3 unaccredited doctorates from the same school? Not to be attacking I'm just curious.
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I am not attacking him for his educational choice. I honestly don't understand why someone would pursue three unaccredited doctorates. I'm also simply observing that an unaccredited doctorate in any field is of questionable value. I do not have a seminary degree. I have a BA from a regionally-accredited baptist college and an MA from Liberty University, along with a variety of graduate credits from other regionally accredited schools. I work in Christian higher education, and I deal with transfer credits, accreditation, and other issues on a regular basis.
There are far too many legitimately accredited institutions out there to waste money on an unaccredited doctoral degree, not to mention that these programs are often sub-standard. I have seen what happens when students attend unaccredited schools, and I would hate for anyone to make a mistake due to misinformation.
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PreacherBoi
New Member
I am 49 and I have been pastoring SB Churches since I was 28. First of all, I have 2 accredited degrees: one from LSU, BS and the other from NOBTS, M.Div. Second, I do not have 3 degrees from ATS. I have 2: D.Min. 98 and DBC May 11, but I am presently working on a Th.D. with ATS. Although I listed my D.Min. with ATS on my last resume, I highly doubt that I will list the other 2 on my next resume. Then why are you enrolled at ATS someone might ask? Well, I enjoy the work, the courses are like con't ed brush up courses for me, the price is reasonable, and they serve to be an aid to me in my ministry. I could care less that they are unaccredited. They serve their purpose for me! If anybody has a problem with my education, it's their problem not mine! My church is very happy with their pastor!:thumbsup:
Perhaps that is the above posters point? Perhaps if positively stated, he is saying that an M.Div. from NOBTS is MORE than adequate pastoral preparation for the pastoral ministry and it is mind boggling (to him) why you feel compelled to do anything further unless it was accredited as that is the only way to use those degrees to teach at most (not all) institutions.
Or perhaps it is just intellectual snobbery :tongue3: In either case, perhaps he is more well intentioned than is coming across... I'm sympathetic as with many there are "degrees" of degree value. I've heard someone in academia say that TRACS isn't even legitimate accreditation. They are legitimate enough for CHEA and they accredit BIBLICAL schools, whereas ATS (Association of Theological Schools) is the gold standard and accredits schools that actively teach Universalism... WHY on earth would ATS take precedence over TRACS???? That is Caarazzyyy...
It's not intellectual snobbery. It's just a recognition that the doctorates mentioned are not really at the doctoral level. He referred to them, "the courses are like con't ed brush up courses for me." This is quite telling. I have no problem with someone pursuing continuing education, even from unaccredited sources. I do take issue with passing off a degree as being doctoral level when it clearly is not. (My "Beef" in this is mostly with the institution rather than the students, to be clear.)
I love non-traditional education. I personally think ATS (the accreditation agency, not the school) is a complete joke of an agency, full of apostate organizations with some evangelical schools in the mix. I also think they are stuck in the past with regards to distance education, among other things.
I like TRACS, but I'm wary of graduate degrees that aren't regionally accredited. While the degrees are legitimate, in many cases, a graduate degree from a TRACS-accredited school may not open that many doors. For ministry, it is less of an issue, but, for instance, I wonder about the utility of Tennessee Temple University's PhD in leadership. I could see it as a good degree for a pastor or ministry leader, but as one working in higher ed, I recognize it would be a waste of time for someone like me. Many secular employers look for regional accreditation as well. Teaching in a university or college almost always requires a regionally accredited degree.
In my mind, the differences between TRACS and regional accreditation are mostly in terms of available resources. IMO, regionally accredited schools will be more likely to have greater resources for faculty, staff, and students (think $$$). I don't think this necessarily means that the education is always better, though.
Even some unaccredited schools can provide a solid education in the subject matter. What I have found, however, is that there is a general trend among unaccredited institutions to offer degrees at levels higher than their instruction justifies. I am also especially suspicious when schools claim bogus accreditation. They should simply be honest--we are unaccredited. Even so, just because a school doesn't necessarily want regional accreditation doesn't mean that the school couldn't try for TRACS or DETC accreditation (both recognized by the CHEA).
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GraceClarified
New Member
midwestern
Can someone comment on the MA Theological Studies degree offered by Midwestern Baptist College? Is this an open door to the SBC to have its big 6 seminaries offering 100% online degrees?
Thanks for the response
Can someone comment on the MA Theological Studies degree offered by Midwestern Baptist College? Is this an open door to the SBC to have its big 6 seminaries offering 100% online degrees?
Thanks for the response
Especially since the same work goes into an accredited one. Or does it? (Rhetorical)
There are some good unaccredited schools but many diploma mills.
Yep. I give it ten years, tops.
Maybe, the bugaboo is ATS is being really squirelly with their views concerning distance and online education. To my knowledge all 6 of the SBC seminaries are ATS accredited and they would all like to keep that status.
SWBTS tried online stuff but the new regime shut it all down when they got in power.
The Big Six will not go to exclusively online M.Div programs anytime in the near or distant future. ATS is simply way too hesitant to accredit these programs, and the Big Six are too steeped in the traditional model. They feel that letting someone take 30 hours onilne is plenty. Remember, you can do a M.Div at any one of the Big Six with only 30 hours on campus, and an extension center counts as a campus. So they believe they are bending over backwards as it is. Whether you agree or not, it is what it is.
No offense to Havensdad, but ten years ago someone told me what you did. It didn't happen last year :tongue3: Won't happen a decade from now, barring some financial situation that would make not doing it untenable.
No offense to Havensdad, but ten years ago someone told me what you did. It didn't happen last year :tongue3: Won't happen a decade from now, barring some financial situation that would make not doing it untenable.