Chosen in Him

[MB]

The election is God's before the creation of man (Ephesians 1:4). It is conditional 1 Peter 1:1-2. But it is wholly unmerited on the part of the God's elect (Romans 11:6).

I disagree! Being chosen means He died for my sins. It does not mean he chose us because of something with in us.After all Christ died for the ungodly. Your statement above says He chose us conditionally Which means because of a quality in us.Then you claim the choosing is unmerited. This is impossible.Jn 3:16 Christ died for the whole world. He chose us to be in Him but not all will be in Him. Other wise we have election instead of Salvation
Eph 1:4 says we "should" be holy and with out blame. It does not say "would" be holy and with out blame.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

I disagree! Being chosen means He died for my sins. It does not mean he chose us because of something with in us.After all Christ died for the ungodly. Your statement above says He chose us conditionally Which means because of a quality in us.Then you claim the choosing is unmerited. This is impossible.Jn 3:16 Christ died for the whole world. He chose us to be in Him but not all will be in Him. Other wise we have election instead of Salvation
Eph 1:4 says we "should" be holy and with out blame. It does not say "would" be holy and with out blame.
MB

We have election unto salvation, world wide
God elected sinners to be in Him, while they were yet in their sin and fallen..

 

[MB]

We have election unto salvation, world wide
God elected sinners to be in Him, while they were yet in their sin and fallen..

There is no reference in scripture of being elected to Salvation in fact in;
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Notice it clearly says "may also obtain" it does not say they will obtain.
MB

 

[37818]

There are now multiple issues. To deal with one now.

Revelation 13:8 says names are written "from" or since the foundation of the world, not before.

Revelation 13:8 does not say when names are written, rather states, ". . . whose names are not written in the book of life . . . ." A popular interpertation being the names having never been written in the book.

 

[MB]

Ephesians 1:4 says we (those who have been set apart in Christ) were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, meaning before creation.

Now exactly what the phrase "chosen in Him" means is not clear with several views found in the literature.

Were we chosen and somehow before creation transferred into Christ spiritually?
Were we "in Him" when we were individually chosen? How did we get in Him before we were chosen?
How could we be chosen individually before we were individually created?

The answers found rely on time travel theology, or mystery, and are therefore unsatisfactory.

Here is a simple answer, we were chosen corporately, as those the chosen Redeemer would redeem. When the Word was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God, and Redeemer, we were therefore chosen corporately as those the Redeemer would redeem, thus we were chosen in Him corporately. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem. This is what Paul meant when he said we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. We were chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan.

This view of course requires a subsequent individual election for salvation, and several verses clearly state that the individual election occurs, not before creation, but during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 indicates our election was through faith in the truth, a conditional election.

This view eliminates the need to add to scripture such that its says "foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith were foreseen to be in Him or foreseen to be subsequently in Him.

 

[Iconoclast]

There is no reference in scripture of being elected to Salvation in fact in;
2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Notice it clearly says "may also obtain" it does not say they will obtain.
MB

MB,
Every time you do this;
May also obtain, if, should,
Virtually everytime it is a certainty, not a contingency .
For example the word...ought...means must.
It is not a suggestion but a fact that is real in the life is a Christian.1tim3:15

 

[Van]

There are now multiple issues. To deal with one now.

Revelation 13:8 does not say when names are written, rather states, ". . . whose names are not written in the book of life . . . ." A popular interpertation being the names having never been written in the book.

It says not written from the foundation of the world. Therefore the most popular interpretation is other names (the elected and saved) were written in the book since the foundation of the world. Once again we see a text that presents a problem for those who believe Ephesians 1:4 is referring to our individual election for salvation. If we had been chosen then, our names would have been written "before" the foundation of the world. Not how it reads. But since we are chosen during our lifetime, as poor to the world, rich in faith, and love God, our names are written since the foundation of the world in the Lamb's Book of Life, because it is then, we are united with Christ and made alive together with Christ.

To repeat, my understanding and interpretation of Ephesians 1:4 is He chose us corporately when He chose Christ individually to be our redeemer, thus He chose us in Him. 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes our individual election for salvation before creation because once we were not a chosen people, once we lived without mercy, but now we have obtained mercy and we are a people.

 

[37818]

It says not written from the foundation of the world. Therefore the most popular interpretation is other names (the elected and saved) were written in the book since the foundation of the world. Once again we see a text that presents a problem for those who believe Ephesians 1:4 is referring to our individual election for salvation. If we had been chosen then, our names would have been written "before" the foundation of the world. Not how it reads. But since we are chosen during our lifetime, as poor to the world, rich in faith, and love God, our names are written since the foundation of the world in the Lamb's Book of Life, because it is then, we are united with Christ and made alive together with Christ.

To repeat, my understanding and interpretation of Ephesians 1:4 is He chose us corporately when He chose Christ individually to be our redeemer, thus He chose us in Him. 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes our individual election for salvation before creation because once we were not a chosen people, once we lived without mercy, but not we have obtained mercy and we are a people.

None of this changes being elect prior the the creation of man (Ephesians 1:4).

And we know that there are those whose name are not written in the book since the creation of man (Revelation 13:8).

Bottom line, regardless of opion, only the whose name is in the book of life will not perish (Revelation 20:15).

Now there is the promise to those who are called the overcomer, that in no way the overcomer's name will be blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5).

Now there is a popular belief one's name gets written in the book when one gets saved.

My understanding is everyone's name starts out in the book. And at some point between birth and death the name can be removed.

In the OT there are two places which mention names being blotted out. (Exodus 32:33; Psalms 69:27-28) In the NT one place, Revelation 3:5, with the promise of not in any way to be blotted out.

Now little children (Mark 10:14-15). The implication, should they die as such, their name is not blotted out. Now regarding this, Nicodemus had asked a question (John 3:4).

 

[37818]

It does not mean he chose us because of something with in us.

Of course it does not. As I stated, "But it [God's election] is wholly unmerited on the part of the God's elect (Romans 11:6).

Eph 1:4 says we "should" be holy and with out blame. It does not say "would" be holy and with out blame.

What is said is purpose not merely a condition to be ment.
ειναι ημας ". . . for us to be . . ." It is God who makes us holy, not of any thing we can merit. So we should, I agree, seek to live like that.

 

[MB]

Of course it does not. As I stated, "But it [God's election] is wholly unmerited on the part of the God's elect (Romans 11:6)
.

It is unmerited.
I think you may have missed a few of my post in other threads. You see I have different views on election. I believe God chose all based on the fact that He died for the sins of everyone. Not just the elect as some claim. Election is not a surety of being saved. It wasn't for the Jews and it isn't for us. It's simple Salvation isn't about being elect. It's about believing in Christ Jesus. We have to remember that Judas was chosen yet He is lost. Judas betrayed our lord but that isn't why he went to hell. He went there because he did not believe in Christ. It's the same with every one that does not believe.

What is said is purpose not merely a condition to be ment.
ειναι ημας ". . . for us to be . . ." It is God who makes us holy, not of any thing we can merit. So we should, I agree, seek to live like that.

I agree with you on this but still it isn't about how we should live, it's about belief in Christ. If we do nothing else but believe we are still saved. Romans 4:5
MB

 

[Van]

Hi 37818.
"None of this changes being elect prior the the creation of man (Ephesians 1:4)." What was posted absolute precludes being elect prior to the creation of man. Once we were not a chosen people! Your view cannot be reconciled with this fact.

Of course there are those whose name is not written. That is what Rev. 13:8 and 17:8 says. Non issue
Of course only those whose names are written will not perish. Non issue.
No one's name is ever blotted out of the Lamb's book of life. Once saved, always saved.
No verse or passage says everyone's name starts out in the Lamb's book of life. The view is unbiblical.
The OT "book of the living" is not the Lamb's book of life,
Mark 10 and John 3 do not address when names are entered into the Lamb's book of life.

 

[37818]

Of course there are those whose name is not written. That is what Rev. 13:8 and 17:8 says. Non issue
Of course only those whose names are written will not perish. Non issue.
No one's name is ever blotted out of the Lamb's book of life. Once saved, always saved.
No verse or passage says everyone's name starts out in the Lamb's book of life. The view is unbiblical.
The OT "book of the living" is not the Lamb's book of life,
Mark 10 and John 3 do not address when names are entered into the Lamb's book of life.

So the promise for those whom God has saved, the "overcomer," not to ever have their name blotted out is a non sequitur then? ". . . I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, . . ." -- Revelation 3:5.

 

[Van]

Hi 37818, I am not sure why you keep misunderstanding my posts.

Here is what I posted: No one's name is ever blotted out of the Lamb's book of life. Once saved, always saved.

So then you post: So the promise for those whom God has saved, the "overcomer," not to ever have their name blotted out is a non sequitur then? "

No, my statement in red affirms the overcomer (those born anew) will never have their name blotted out.

Back to the actual issue, were we chosen individually before creation, or chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan, those the Redeemer would redeem, thus He "chose us in Him."

You seem to say "individually" but if that were true, then we would have always been a chosen people. However, 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes that view "for once you were not a people but now you are the people of God."

 

[37818]

Hi 37818, I am not sure why you keep misunderstanding my posts.

Here is what I posted: No one's name is ever blotted out of the Lamb's book of life. Once saved, always saved.

So then you post: So the promise for those whom God has saved, the "overcomer," not to ever have their name blotted out is a non sequitur then? "

No, my statement in red affirms the overcomer (those born anew) will never have their name blotted out.

Back to the actual issue, were we chosen individually before creation, or chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan, those the Redeemer would redeem, thus He "chose us in Him."

You seem to say "individually" but if that were true, then we would have always been a chosen people. However, 1 Peter 2:9-10 precludes that view "for once you were not a people but now you are the people of God."

Then the promise to never blot a name of those who are saved makes no sense. (Noting Exodus 32:33 the first reference to a names being removed from a record because of sin.)

 

[37818]

It is unmerited.
I think you may have missed a few of my post in other threads. You see I have different views on election. I believe God chose all based on the fact that He died for the sins of everyone. Not just the elect as some claim. Election is not a surety of being saved. It wasn't for the Jews and it isn't for us. It's simple Salvation isn't about being elect. It's about believing in Christ Jesus. We have to remember that Judas was chosen yet He is lost. Judas betrayed our lord but that isn't why he went to hell. He went there because he did not believe in Christ. It's the same with every one that does not believe.


I agree with you on this but still it isn't about how we should live, it's about belief in Christ. If we do nothing else but believe we are still saved. Romans 4:5
MB

Regardless of what ever one believes regarding God's election of believers, Ephesians 1:4 makes it explicitly clear that this election was before the creation of man.

 

[Van]

Then the promise to never blot a name of those who are saved makes no sense. (Noting Exodus 32:33 the first reference to a names being removed from a record because of sin.)

Once again you address what I have already addressed, but do not address the issue of the meaning of chose us in Him. 1 Peter 2:9-10 requires that the election in Ephesians 1:4, which occurred before creation was corporate, and not individual because if it was of foreseen individuals, then they would always have been God's chosen people. Not how it reads.

The OT "book of the living" is not the Lamb's book of life,

One other observation, one of the differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is eternal security.

 

[MB]

Regardless of what ever one believes regarding God's election of believers, Ephesians 1:4 makes it explicitly clear that this election was before the creation of man.

True it does but depending on how you want to interpret it. I use scripture to interpret scripture. You then could say we were all saved before the creation. Already chosen to be saved. I don't believe everyone will be saved, so what exactly does this mean? .
Christ said;
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Sounds like to me that election doesn't really mean we will be saved but can be if we hear the gospel and believe. No one is saved with out faith first. Paul Wrote;
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Being saved by grace means we have to have faith first because grace can only come through faith.
So how do we know we are on the right path?
Paul wrote;
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Faith is not the gift. The Gift is Salvation. Hearing the gospel can give us faith if we listen to the gospel preached. This is the path.
Can you tell me what you think this verse is saying;
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
MB

 

[37818]

Once again you address what I have already addressed, but do not address the issue of the meaning of chose us in Him. 1 Peter 2:9-10 requires that the election in Ephesians 1:4, which occurred before creation was corporate, and not individual because if it was of foreseen individuals, then they would always have been God's chosen people. Not how it reads.

The election is condtional per 1 Peter 1:2, ". . . according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: . . ." Of course one of the conditons is that it is wholly unmerited on the part of those whom God chose. We experience the election in time, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14. And we should make sure of it for ourselves 2 Peter 1:9-10.

One other observation, one of the differences between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant is eternal security.

Yes. Little children who die as such, no doubt have their names in the book, Mark 10:14; Revelation 20:15.

 

[37818]

True it does but depending on how you want to interpret it. I use scripture to interpret scripture. You then could say we were all saved before the creation.

No. The election is before the creation of man (Ephesians 1:4) Not the salvation which is preceded by faith of the saved (Ephesians 2:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). For us, we are not chosen until our time of faith. The election before man's creation is with God.

 

[Van]

Individual Election for salvation before creation is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10. No one was elected individually before creation, otherwise they would never have not been a chosen people.

1 Peter 1:1-2 teaches our individual election is accomplished by means of being set apart by the Holy Spirit. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5 and 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 teach our election is conditional based on faith in the truth, and our love for God. Additionally God's choice was not based on the world's value system, for He did not choose many who were rich, or powerful or of noble birth.

When God chose the Word (Logos) to be His Lamb, His Redeemer, He chose us in Him corporately as the target group of His redemption plan.