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Chosen in Him
- Thread starter Van
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Yet another post not addressing the fact that Ephesians 1:4 cannot refer to our individual election for salvation. Instead another verse is misrepresented to change the subject, 1 Peter 2:2.
" Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, 2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, 3 if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord." (NASB)
Obviously this refers to our growing in maturity after we were chosen and set apart in Christ. Thus, off topic and non-germane.
Returning to topic:
Individual Election for salvation before creation is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10. No one was elected individually before creation, otherwise they would never have not been a chosen people.
" Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, 2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, 3 if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord." (NASB)
Obviously this refers to our growing in maturity after we were chosen and set apart in Christ. Thus, off topic and non-germane.
Returning to topic:
Individual Election for salvation before creation is precluded by 1 Peter 2:9-10. No one was elected individually before creation, otherwise they would never have not been a chosen people.
I agree. We are saying the same thing
Thank you for referencing this verse below
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
I've read it many times Salvation is dependent upon sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.
MB
37818
Well-Known Member
No. The Greek says "into salvation." And must be understood that one is saved in order to "grow thereby into salvation." That is, ". . . in salvation." 65% of the manuscripts have this reading ". . . into salvation." Only 35% omit it.
I'm sure we do not grow up into Salvation. We grow after Salvation. Growing into Salvation requires work. Sounds to Roman Catholic for me.
MB
Which Greek text? If it's the Vaticanis I can understand why the difference. If it's the majority text I have never seen it written that way. If it's the Vaticanis as far as I know, there are only two codex copies of it and that isn't 65%. of all text.The best that I have come accross is Greens interlinear, I believe it's from the majority and except for the difference between the language's it read just like the KJV..
MB
37818
Well-Known Member
A large number of Byzantine texts would need to be counted to get that 65%. Most Byzantine texts most likely omit the reading. The manuscript family 35, is the new Majority text. One TR Greek NT I baught in the 197O's included that in the verse. My first Greek NT showed that reading to be the Majority text reading (baught in 1968). The NKJV does not show that reading to be in the Majority text. As some other Majority text translations omit it.
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Rewriting scripture to conform to man-made doctrine is a mistake. Scripture does not say once we were not a people because we were but had not experienced it.
Look, you have one verse with a mistaken understanding (chosen individually before creation) and you hold on to that even though verse after verse precludes that view. James 2:5 says we are chosen during our lifetime after we are (1) poor to the world, (2) rich in faith and (3) love God. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through faith in the truth. 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 has our election occurring when many of us are not rich, or powerful or of noble birth.
No need to change the subject to Divine Knowledge, because it is non-germane. We know when scripture tells us we are chosen, during our lifetime after we believe. We are chosen through faith in the truth, when we are rich in faith, and as heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God. We know we were not chosen individually before creation because during our lifetime we were not a people, but now we are a people.
God's word is true. And God's word says God is "all knowing." So by the numbers:
1) God exists and rewards those who seek Him.
2) God is all powerful, all knowing, and present everywhere.
3) God makes plans, such as the predetermined plan to put Christ to death.
4) Before Creation, God chose Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity to be His Lamb, His Redeemer.
5) God therefore chose those the Redeemer would redeem, corporately as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him.
6) God could not have chosen us individually before creation because once we were not a chosen people.
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I do not think further discussion is possible. I explained why your view is precluded, and you simply said the verse did not preclude being chosen before creation. Nothing I can do with that.
You seem to fabricate issues without basis. Did I say the redemption plan did not include individual election? Nope, I said the exact opposite, it does.
Rather than invent issues already addressed, why not explain how we lived without mercy if we had already been individually elected. Next you may claim that to be chosen individually for salvation does not mean we obtained mercy.
This view fits with all scripture, your apparent view is precluded by numerous passages such as James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 1 Peter 2:9-10
You seem to fabricate issues without basis. Did I say the redemption plan did not include individual election? Nope, I said the exact opposite, it does.
Rather than invent issues already addressed, why not explain how we lived without mercy if we had already been individually elected. Next you may claim that to be chosen individually for salvation does not mean we obtained mercy.
This view fits with all scripture, your apparent view is precluded by numerous passages such as James 2:5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and 1 Peter 2:9-10
37818
Well-Known Member
The actual point of disagreement seems blurred. The how and why. What seems to be understood is the disagreement is over the individual being chosen before being chosen in time. As if Ephesians 1:4 versus James 2:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; 1 Peter 2:9-10. Which of course they are not opposing teachings.
No they are not, Ephesians refers to God choosing us in Him before the foundation of the world corporately, and the others referring to God choosing us individually during our lifetime, after we were not a people, via positional sanctification (God putting us into Christ) based on crediting our faith as righteousness. There is only one way to fit these together, and you seem to have rejected it, going with we experienced not being chosen when we really were. Nonsense.
Did God foresee the Fall of Adam and the result God imposed, the separation and corruption at conception of every person? Yes, because before the fall, before creation, God chose the Second Person of the Trinity to be the Lamb, the Redeemer of those who believe fully in God. As Pink concluded, God did not cause Adam to sin, but He did arrange (putting the tree in the garden) for Adam to fall. At the time (actually before time) God chose us in Him, thereby granting grace to whoever would be redeemed from before creation and receiving that grace upon entering Christ spiritually. (2 Timothy 1:9)
37818
Well-Known Member
No. God foreknew it in His omniscience. Now the Son of God being the uncaused Cause (John 1:3; Colossians 1:17) on behalf of the Father (Ephesians 3:9; Hebrews 1:2-3) may have had limited His omniscience in the matter. As a cause is fininte and temporal in nature. Note Mark 13:32 with Acts of the Apostles 1:7, and Genesis 22:12; John 1:18. The error of open theism is based on appearent limitations of God's omniscience, which are do to the acts of the Son on behalf of the Father.
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This thread will be closed sometime after 10 PM Pacific.
Yet another off topic effort to change the subject. Look, you have one verse (Ephesians 1:4) with a mistaken understanding (chosen individually before creation) and you hold on to that even though verse after verse precludes that view. James 2:5 says we are chosen during our lifetime after we are (1) poor to the world, (2) rich in faith and (3) love God. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through faith in the truth. 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 has our election occurring when many of us are not rich, or powerful or of noble birth. And to add to the list of verses demanding that the election in Ephesians 1:4 is corporate is 1 Peter 2:9-10, which says we were not a people. Therefore we could not have been chosen individually before creation. Otherwise we would always been a people.
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