Chosen in Him

[The Biblicist]

The grammar argument was destroyed by 1 Peter 1:1-2 where we were chosen by the sanctifying work of the Spirit. Thus the effort to sever the link between chosen and faith in the truth failed. And conditional election is once again shown to be the biblical doctrine.

Peter does not say a word about foreknown faith. It says that were chosen according to God's foreknowledge and foreknowledge has nothing to do with prescience but knowledge predetermined by God's purpose. Romans 8:28 begins with God working ALL things (election) "according to his purpose" and then that purpose is worked out in time and space.

Foreknowledge is what be house builder has as he knows before a house is built where every door, every window, every room, every light socket will be BECAUSE HE WORKS ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO HIS BLUEPRINT.

The idea of foreseen faith is absurd as God is the "AUTHOR" and not a mere bystander looking down the corridors of time but must impart faith. "As many as were ordained to eternal life BELIEVED" (Acts 13:48) and it does not say "as many as believed were ordained to eternal life" as that is pure abuse of Greek grammar. We were "CHOSEN TO SALVATION" and "through" defines the chosen means "through" which that salvation is applied not election.

Try learning better grammar. The Direct Object of the verb "chosen" is salvation not "through......" Whereas "through...." modifies "salvation. The Greek noun translated "salvation" is found in the accusative case indicating where the action of the verb chosen terminates.

 

[Van]

Two more posts that simply deny the scripture. 1 Peter 1:1-2 destroys the idea that "sanctification by the Spirit refers to salvation, because the phrase "for salvation" is not in the verse, leaving chosen through the sanctifying work of the Spirit. Conditional election for salvation is supported by 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, and several others. Pay no attention to the various ways you see the verses rewritten to hide this truth.

And once again, foreknowledge refers to knowledge obtained or formulated in the past being utilized in the present. We are chosen according to God's redemption plan formulated before the foundation of the world.

Finally, note the use of an off the shelf argument again foreseen faith, demonstrating the poster has no comprehension of the fact we are chosen during our lifetime after God credits our faith as righteousness.

 

[37818]

Two more posts that simply deny the scripture. 1 Peter 1:1-2 destroys the idea that "sanctification by the Spirit refers to salvation, because the phrase "for salvation" is not in the verse.

The term "through sanctification of the Spirit" occurs twice. Once in 1 Peter 1:2, ". . . through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: . . ." And the second time in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, ". . . chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit . . . ."

 

[Van]

The term "through sanctification of the Spirit" occurs twice. Once in 1 Peter 1:2, ". . . through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: . . ." And the second time in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, ". . . chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit . . . ."

Spot on!

What is being denied is what these and other passages teach, we were chosen by being set apart into Christ by the Spirit based on God crediting our faith as righteousness.

One method of denial is to rewrite 2 Thessalonians 2:13 along the lines found in the NIV or NLT which sever the link being being chosen through faith in the truth, a conditional election.

 

[37818]

Spot on!

What is being denied is what these and other passages teach, we were chosen by being set apart into Christ by the Spirit based on God crediting our faith as righteousness.

One method of denial is to rewrite 2 Thessalonians 2:13 along the lines found in the NIV or NLT which sever the link being being chosen through faith in the truth, a conditional election.

A couple things to note. There are two different Greek texts for 2 Thessalonians 2:13. 94% of the Greek texts read "from the beginning." Only 6% have "firstfruits." And this santification precedes our hearing the gospel, repentance, faith and regeneration. God elects us foreknowing us (1 Peter 1:1-2), and we in time are chosen (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). Remember God's omniscience is absolute, it is not forseeing, it is foreknowing.

 

[Van]

A couple things to note. There are two different Greek texts for 2 Thessalonians 2:13. 94% of the Greek texts read "from the beginning." Only 6% have "firstfruits." And this santification precedes our hearing the gospel, repentance, faith and regeneration. God elects us foreknowing us (1 Peter 1:1-2), and we in time are chosen (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). Remember God's omniscience is absolute, it is not forseeing, it is foreknowing.

I completely disagree.

1) We are chosen through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. Your idea that because sanctification appears first in the sentence, it occurred first in sequence is invalid. James 2:5 says God chose the (1) poor to the world, (2) rich in faith and (3) heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God. So faith in the truth comes before being chosen.

2) 1 Peter 1:1-2 tells us we were chosen according to the foreknowledge of God. Foreknowledge refers to information acquired or formulated beforehand, and being utilized in the present. Here we are being chosen according to God's redemption plan, which is to choose those whose faith God credits as righteousness.

3) Foreknew, foreknown, and foreknowledge indicates knowledge from the past is being utilized in the present. It has nothing to do with knowing the future.

We appear to agree we are chosen in time, from creation, through being set apart in Christ by the Holy Spirit (i.e. baptized into Christ) and faith in the truth. Which brings us back to "from the beginning." I think the beginning refers to the beginning of the new Covenant, because we are chosen based on our faith in Christ as our Savior. That would make the Thessalonians "first fruits" of the New Covenant, but position the OT saints as fruits of the Old Covenant. It all fits.

 

[37818]

I completely disagree.

1) We are chosen through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. Your idea that because sanctification appears first in the sentence, it occurred first in sequence is invalid. James 2:5 says God chose the (1) poor to the world, (2) rich in faith and (3) heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God. So faith in the truth comes before being chosen.

Literally "in sanctification of the Spirit." This is what God does for us, without merit on our part.
"εν αγιασμω πνευματος" in sanctification of the Spirit, God's part.
"και πιστει αληθειας" and belief of the truth, our part.
John 6:44-45. 2 Thessalonians 2:14.

 

[Reformed]

.
It is unfortunate that “reformed” churches have distorted there teaching in presenting salvation is found in sacraments, in belonging to the fellowship, in adopting some creed or other statement, ...[\quote]

Brother, "some" Reformed churches do this, mostly on the paedobaptist side, and even then it's not every Reformed church. I have many dear Presbyterian friends who view the sacraments (ordinances) as faith-strengthening (means of grace), but not salvific in nature. They also view the Confessions in their proper place and not on par with scripture. Unfortunately, some of their churches have gone too far and fallen into serious error. The belief in presumptive regeneration is one such error. I didn't mean to hijack thread. Sorry.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Van]

Literally "in sanctification of the Spirit." This is what God does for us, without merit on our part.
"εν αγιασμω πνευματος" in sanctification of the Spirit, God's part.
"και πιστει αληθειας" and belief of the truth, our part.
John 6:44-45. 2 Thessalonians 2:14.

First, let me say thank you for actually discussing the meaning of scripture. I do not agree with your view, but the fact you have studied and formulated a view is praiseworthy.

1) "en (in) sanctification" has been translated as indicating instrumentality not location. Thus through or by means of being set apart explains how we were chosen. And of course, God does this part. 1 Cor. 1:30 - we are in Christ by God's doing.

2) "And belief in the truth" our part. This sounds like we our choosing ourselves. Again, staying with the idea this phrase tells us how we were chosen for salvation, the through belief in the truth indicates God's action, thus when He credits our faith in the truth as righteousness, that forms the basis of our conditional election. We were deemed as "rich in faith" and heirs because we loved God (James 2:5.)

3) 2 Thessalonians 2:14 supports the idea we were chosen after we were called through the gospel, during our lifetime.

4) John 6:44-45 supports the idea of being drawn and taught, and if we heard and learned, such that God credits our faith as righteousness, we will "come to Me" (Christ) in that by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, we will be set apart in Christ.

 

[37818]

First, let me say thank you for actually discussing the meaning of scripture. I do not agree with your view, but the fact you have studied and formulated a view is praiseworthy.

1) "en (in) sanctification" has been translated as indicating instrumentality not location. Thus through or by means of being set apart explains how we were chosen. And of course, God does this part. 1 Cor. 1:30 - we are in Christ by God's doing.

2) "And belief in the truth" our part. This sounds like we our choosing ourselves. Again, staying with the idea this phrase tells us how we were chosen for salvation, the through belief in the truth indicates God's action, thus when He credits our faith in the truth as righteousness, that forms the basis of our conditional election. We were deemed as "rich in faith" and heirs because we loved God (James 2:5.)

3) 2 Thessalonians 2:14 supports the idea we were chosen after we were called through the gospel, during our lifetime.

4) John 6:44-45 supports the idea of being drawn and taught, and if we heard and learned, such that God credits our faith as righteousness, we will "come to Me" (Christ) in that by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, we will be set apart in Christ.

We are sanctified of the Spirit by God's truth, ". . . Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. . . ." -- John 17:17. And faith does come from hearing God's word, ". . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. . . ." -- Romans 10:17.

So it is my understanding the sanctification precedes faith, ". . . salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[Van]

We are sanctified of the Spirit by God's truth, ". . . Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. . . ." -- John 17:17. And faith does come from hearing God's word, ". . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. . . ." -- Romans 10:17.

So it is my understanding the sanctification precedes faith, ". . . salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: . . ." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

First John 17:17 says we are set apart through the truth, with God's word being truth. But that of course is based on the idea we correctly understand God's word.

I think your understanding is backward, but let us zero in on what we mean by "sanctification" precedes faith. If "sanctification" refers to God setting us apart in Christ, where we are transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son, then faith precedes that "sanctification."

Next you presented 2 Thessalonians 2:13 as if it said "salvation through sanctification..." No, it says we are chosen (elected for salvation) through (or by means of) setting us apart by the Spirit and on the basis of God crediting our faith in the truth. Otherwise you create a conflict with other passages such as James 2:5.

So by the numbers:
1. God reveals Himself to us such that we believe He exists and rewards those who seek Him.
2. We are drawn (attracted) to Christ when we behold Him high and lifted up (dying for us.)
3. We hear and learn from the Father, faith does indeed come from hearing the milk of the gospel.
4. God credits our faith (or not) and when He does (if He does) He transfers us into Christ spiritually where we are made alive, born anew, and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

 

[37818]

First John 17:17 says we are set apart through the truth, with God's word being truth. But that of course is based on the idea we correctly understand God's word.

I think your understanding is backward, but let us zero in on what we mean by "sanctification" precedes faith. If "sanctification" refers to God setting us apart in Christ, where we are transferred from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son, then faith precedes that "sanctification."

Next you presented 2 Thessalonians 2:13 as if it said "salvation through sanctification..." No, it says we are chosen (elected for salvation) through (or by means of) setting us apart by the Spirit and on the basis of God crediting our faith in the truth. Otherwise you create a conflict with other passages such as James 2:5.

So by the numbers:
1. God reveals Himself to us such that we believe He exists and rewards those who seek Him.
2. We are drawn (attracted) to Christ when we behold Him high and lifted up (dying for us.)
3. We hear and learn from the Father, faith does indeed come from hearing the milk of the gospel.
4. God credits our faith (or not) and when He does (if He does) He transfers us into Christ spiritually where we are made alive, born anew, and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe the conclusion of Romans 3:11? The typical Calvinist solution is regernation precedes faith.

God sanctifies.
God's truth sanctifies John 17:17.
Truth precedes faith.

 

[Van]

Do I believe no fallen person ever at any time seeks God? Nope. I believe no one seeks God all the time because we all sin, and no one seeks God when sinning. That is the conclusion of Romans 3:11.

Faith, ours but credited by God as righteousness, precedes our individual election by God for salvation. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Faith before election, faith before salvation, faith before regeneration.

I did not see where you defined what you mean by "sanctifies." I said in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 it means to be set apart in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

 

[37818]

Do I believe no fallen person ever at any time seeks God? Nope.

So God plays no role in men seeking Him, the actual true God. The conclusing of Romans 3:11, ". . . There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. . . ." is not absolutely true. Only realitively so.

I did not see where you defined what you mean by "sanctifies." I said in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 it means to be set apart in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

My understanding is unless God intervenes by His word and Holy Spirit, to set men appart for Him, men do not repent. So sanctification precedes hearing the gospel, when men hear it.

 

[Van]

Did I say God plays no role? Let me quote from post # 91

"1. God reveals Himself to us such that we believe He exists and rewards those who seek Him."

Romans 3:11 is absolutely true. But it does not say "at any time." That inference would be your interpretation. My interpretation, based on the context of the passage (we are all sinners) is no one seeks God when sinning, therefore we are all sinners.

Are you going to define sanctify?

It is hard for me to refer to scripture that supports or precludes your view if I cannot figure our what exactly is your doctrine.

 

[37818]

Did I say God plays no role? Let me quote from post # 91

"1. God reveals Himself to us such that we believe He exists and rewards those who seek Him."

Romans 3:11 is absolutely true. But it does not say "at any time." That inference would be your interpretation. My interpretation, based on the context of the passage (we are all sinners) is no one seeks God when sinning, therefore we are all sinners.

The condition of men without the intervention of God is what is stated in Romans 3:11 which is the conclution of Psalms 14:2 & Psalms 53:2.

You had said:

Do I believe no fallen person ever at any time seeks God? Nope. I believe no one seeks God all the time because we all sin, and no one seeks God when sinning. That is the conclusion of Romans 3:11.

By this I understood you to deny men on their own do not seek God at all. It is my understanding Romans 3:11 is true in the very same way as Romans 3:10. "There is none . . . ." You seemed to disagree with that understanding.

Are you going to define sanctify?

To be made Holy, to be set apart for God, by God Himself. As oppossed to regeneration which is preceded by faith. which is preceded by hearing truth. (John 17:17; Romans 10:17; Romans 10:14; Mark 16:15.) There are some who refuse to hear (The Acts of the Apostles 7:51; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4).

It is hard for me to refer to scripture that supports or precludes your view if I cannot figure our what exactly is your doctrine.

My view is what I can conclude from holy scripture and logical deduction from the holy scripture. I am not a Calvinist, nor Arminian in my view. I understand Romans 3:11 to teach the total inablity of man to come to God appart for the preaching of the gospel. And the election is God's before the creation of man (Ephesians 1:4). And we experience this in time (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). Without merit on our part. God who saves (Ephesians 2:8-9) is who does the keeping (John 10:27-30). I hold all men (1 John 2:2) by vertue of Christ's finished work (John 19:30), their names are in the book of life. Only to be removed if they do not come to faith in Christ (1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 3:5; Revelation 20:15).

 

[MB]

Some think themselves special because of election, although it is clear to me that all have been chosen because Christ died for the sins of the whole world. All that is needed is our belief in Him. Some will not be saved just as some Jews are not saved because of there election. My point is that election with out belief doesn't count for much. We were chosen in Him because He died for our sins. Calvinist argue that election is unconditional and individual. They believe that election is there Salvation in a sense because they explain it as it meaning they will be saved no matter whether they believe or not this verse says;

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

There is a huge difference between "will be saved" and "should be saved" Think about it
MB

 

[37818]

Calvinist argue that election is unconditional and individual.

The election is God's before the creation of man (Ephesians 1:4). It is conditional 1 Peter 1:1-2. But it is wholly unmerited on the part of the God's elect (Romans 11:6).

 

[Van]

The condition of men without the intervention of God is what is stated in Romans 3:11 which is the conclusion of Psalms 14:3 & Psalms 53:3.

You had said:By this I understood you to deny men on their own do not seek God at all. It is my understanding Romans 3:11 is true in the very same way as Romans 3:10. "There is none . . . ." You seemed to disagree with that understanding.

To be made Holy, to be set apart for God, by God Himself. As opposed to regeneration which is preceded by faith. which is preceded by hearing truth. (John 17:17; Romans 10:17; Romans 10:14; Mark 16:15.) There are some who refuse to hear (The Acts of the Apostles 7:51; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4).
My view is what I can conclude from holy scripture and logical deduction from the holy scripture. I am not a Calvinist, nor Arminian in my view. I understand Romans 3:11 to teach the total inablity of man to come to God appart for the preaching of the gospel. And the election is God's before the creation of man (Ephesians 1:4). And we experience this in time (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). Without merit on our part. God who saves (Ephesians 2:8-9) is who does the keeping (John 10:27-30). I hold all men (1 John 2:2) by vertue of Christ's finished work (John 19:30), their names are in the book of life. Only to be removed if they do not come to faith in Christ (1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 3:5; Revelation 20:15).

Thanks for making a clear statement as to your understanding of biblical doctrine.

1) You view of Romans 3:11 is that it says no one seeks God without the "intervention of God." My view is no one seeks God unless they believe God exists and rewards those that seek Him. And they would come to that belief because God revealed Himself to them through what He has made, and through the witness and work of the Holy Spirit, such as the inspired Old and New Testament.

So what did you mean by "intervention" (1) revelation or (2) supernatural alteration by irresistible grace or prevenient grace?

2) Paul used Psalm 14 for a different message than what the Psalmist was saying. And that is ok because both messages are inspired. In Psalm 14:3:
14 The fool has said in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt,
They have done abominable works,
There is none who does good.
2 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

Thus the "they" refers to those who say their is no God, and God looked down to see if any of them understood that God exists and therefore seek God.

But read on to verse 5-6

5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord is his refuge.

Thus Psalm 14"s "conclusion" is that none who say there is no God seek God, but others seek God as their refuge.

3) Ditto for Psalm 53:3-5, there were some in great fear because they believed in God.

4) The problem with concluding there is none that ever seek God is that scripture is full of examples of fallen men who seek God some of the time. Matthew 23:13 has people in the process of "entering the kingdom." Conclusions that create conflict with other passages are in error, the whole bible, properly understood fits together.

5) Sanctify has at least two meanings, to be set apart for a purpose, such as God setting us apart in Christ, and to make holy, such as purifying a person. In your usage which of those two meanings did you intend. Jesus was praying for His disciples and for those who would be saved through the truth of the gospel spread by the gospel truth. They were set apart for this purpose, to present the truth.

6) Regeneration means to be made spiritually alive, together with Christ, which occurs when we are transferred into Christ by the Spirit. We have faith before we are chosen, which occurs before we are transferred into Christ where we are "regenerated."

7) Total Spiritual Inability due to the fall is a fiction with no support anywhere in scripture, such as Romans 3:11.

8) Ephesians 1:4 does not support our individual election before creation. Why would James 2:5 say God chose the poor to the world, if the world had not been created. Or chose those "rich in faith" if no existed to hear the gospel. Or refer to a promise that had not been made. Or to a love of God before God had revealed Himself to anyone. No, your understanding of Ephesians 1:4 does not fit with passage after passage.


1)

 

[Van]

I see I missed one, your view that everyone's name is written in the Lamb's book of life, and then when someone unsaved dies, there name is blotted out. But no where in scripture is there any support. Revelation 13:8 says names are written "from" or since the foundation of the world, not before. Yes some versions (ESV, NLT) say before, but the best versions do not, NASB, NKJV, WEB, NET, CSB, and YLT. Ask yourself, if "apo" meant before in Revelation 13:8, why does the same word in the same phrase mean "from" at Revelation 17:8? The mistranslation is an effort to harmonize scripture with man-made doctrine. The opposite of what translators should do.

My view is our names are written in the Lamb's book of life when we are transferred into Christ and made spiritually alive. This occurs during our lifetime after God credits our faith as righteousness.