Chosen in Him

[37818]

Ephesians 1:4 says we (those who have been set apart in Christ) were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, meaning before creation.

Now exactly what the phrase "chosen in Him" means is not clear with several views found in the literature.

Were we chosen and somehow before creation transferred into Christ spiritually?
Were we "in Him" when we were individually chosen? How did we get in Him before we were chosen?
How could we be chosen individually before we were individually created?

The answers found rely on time travel theology, or mystery, and are therefore unsatisfactory.

Here is a simple answer, we were chosen corporately, as those the chosen Redeemer would redeem. When the Word was chosen individually to be the Lamb of God, and Redeemer, we were therefore chosen corporately as those the Redeemer would redeem, thus we were chosen in Him corporately. You do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem. This is what Paul meant when he said we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. We were chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan.

This view of course requires a subsequent individual election for salvation, and several verses clearly state that the individual election occurs, not before creation, but during our lifetime based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 indicates our election was through faith in the truth, a conditional election.

This view eliminates the need to add to scripture such that its says "foreseen individuals with or without foreseen faith were foreseen to be in Him or foreseen to be subsequently in Him.

The use of this Greek trem translated "world" refers to the creation of man, hence mankind. (John 3:16; 1 John 2:15-17; John 17:5-25).

 

[Van]

Yes, John used the term to refer to "fallen mankind" or the corrupt value system of fallen mankind. Before the foundation of the world refers, in my opinion but shared by many others, to before creation.

 

[percho]

When or where does the Scriptures state that Christ was “chosen” to be the redeemer?

Would it be correct to say, before the foundation of the world, God choose himself to be the redeemer, through his Son born of woman, whose life would be in his blood?

Job 19:25, Gal 4:4,5 Lev 17:11 Col 1:18 Rom 8:15,29

 

[Van]

Hi Percho, I do not see that the verses you listed address before the foundation of the world.

Here are the verses that do:

Jhn 17:24

“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
Tools

Eph 1:4

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.
Tools

1Pe 1:20

For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared [fn]in these last times for the sake of you

 

[Van]

Note that in 1 Peter 1:20 you see the word "foreknown." What differentiates what is known from what is foreknown? Why not say He was known before the foundation of the world? I think the idea is that when knowledge or a plan of action, formulated in the past, is being utilized in the present, it is according to the foreknowledge of the planner, or the planned actions were foreknown. Here, Christ is carrying out the redemption plan formulated before the foundation of the world. The next time you come across foreknew, foreknow and foreknowledge, think about what prior plan or knowledge is being utilized or implemented in the present.

 

[agedman]

Note that in 1 Peter 1:20 you see the word "foreknown." What differentiates what is known from what is foreknown? Why not say He was known before the foundation of the world? I think the idea is that when knowledge or a plan of action, formulated in the past, is being utilized in the present, it is according to the foreknowledge of the planner, or the planned actions were foreknown. Here, Christ is carrying out the redemption plan formulated before the foundation of the world. The next time you come across foreknew, foreknow and foreknowledge, think about what prior plan or knowledge is being utilized or implemented in the present.

You would be secure your thinking if one considered God from a "time line" approach in which He has a past, a present and a future.

God is not conformed to time nor space as humankind are so constrained.

Humankind generally cannot consider that Christ could die prior to the world being becoming void and formless, that individuals would be chosen prior to "Let their be light," because it doesn't fit within the time frame reference set in which humankind are constrained.

Rather than accepting the Scriptures as presented, humankind are typically compelled to manipulate in attempt to make sense - to invent schemes in which the matters can fit human reasoning.

Why?

Redemption wasn't a plan that was carried out as some architect would present builders prior to construction.

Redemption is (outside of constrains of time) just as the I Am is not boxed by time: therefore, the timelessness of redemption as presented in the Scriptures is secure without human manipulation to a time.

In the "fulness of time Christ came..." does not mean God is conformed to time, but the acknowledgement that humankind being so conformed, and considering the human timing, God appointed the anointed one (Christ) to serve in that constraint for an "time."

In the beginning, is the beginning of "human time" but not God, nor binding upon God.

In the statement "I am the alpha and omega," Christ existent prior to beginning, that He was present already providing reconciliation at the beginning of human time and on to the ending of human time.

The eternal, who allowed human constraints placed upon himself for a moment, yet without being subject to such constraints that the Psalmist could rightly record, "I will dwell in the house of the Lord, forever."

 

[Van]

I believe the inspired message in scripture is not based on time travel theology, where the sequence given in scripture can be ignored so as to avoid conflicts with man-made doctrine.

Rom 8:29
For those whom He foreknew,(preplanned) He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Rom 11:2

God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew (had arranged.) Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

1Pe 1:20
For He was foreknown (part of the redemption plan) before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

Act 2:23
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge (preplanned) of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

1Pe 1:2

according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, [fn]to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace]be yours in the fullest measure.

 

[unprofitable]

While we believe that there is an individual redemption, we also believe what Van said concerning a corporate election. Here are a few verses/principles that we, the church at Monarch, believe support it.
!. An individual CANNOT be a nation, people, priesthood, or kingdom (I Pet. 2:9) "Ye are" is to the saints in Christ in His body.
2.. An individual CANNOT be a church. An individual can only be a member of the body, but not the body.
3. A member cut off from the body will die. The body will continue to live.
4. The ordinances were given to the CHURCH and there are no scriptures to support someone baptizing himself or taking the Lord's supper by themselves. They are to be observed "corporately" by the whole covenant body, the members of the church.
5. The covenant (marriage agreement) is with Christ and his wife, the church. Eph 5:25
6. The Holy Spirit is given to the church. Christ addressing his disciples in John 15:5 tells them that ,they as members, by abiding IN Him, will bring forth much fruit. This fruit is the fruit of righteousness directed by the Holy Spirit. In Mt 21:43, Christ in addressing carnal Israel as a covenant nation says, "The kingdom shall be taken from you (they had become as the nations and were as a desolate place) and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits (of the Spirit) thereof," To what nation (not an individual) was the kingdom given? it was given to kingdom/nation/people of God as a literal, local, visible covenant Baptist house at the time of Christ and to His seed after Him. Christ was/is its prophet. priest, king. He is also the head of the church and savior of the BODY, Eph 5:23)
7. He hath set the members EVERYONE of them (without exception),in the body (the church, a gathering together for a common purpose) as it has pleased Him. Predestined to be (where) in the body, Not only, in individuality as members, but above all, corporately.
8. The promise/oath of Christ is to gather His PEOPLE together is evidenced in Mt 16:18. Ps 50:5, Ps 147
9. Moses, by the spirit of Christ in him, delivered Israel as a NATION, and not one individual at a time. Christ delivers His PEOPLE, in the context of the church, the same way. Individuals are added to a body of Christ that already exists therefore "corporate" deliverance.
10. The promise of the eternal life in the knowledge of "the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent" (Jn 17:3) is given to the church as evidenced by Eph 3:10,..."it might be known BY THE CHURCH (revealed unto) the manifold wisdom (the will, charge) of God." We must also conclude therefore that Christ reveals Himself to His wife, the church, by the Holy Spirit, that she might know how to raise up her children in the way they should go so when they grow old they will not depart from it. Prov 22:6
11. If salvation is only in individuality, what is the purpose/need of the church?
12 How can the body be of one mind and one accord if they are not gathered together?
13. Christ is given to His people, the church and he is a kinsman redeemer. Isaiah 9:6 says, "For unto US a child is born, unto US a child is given." The pronouns us, them, and we, often refers to the church as a whole and is not used in individuality apart from the church/kingdom of God
14 The promises to Abraham include that he would become a great nation. (Gen 12:2-3) These verses are also a prophesy concerning Christ and the church. This is part of the faith of Abraham and his seedline, the sons of God, IN Christ.
15. WE (both individually and corporately) know that WE have pass from death unto life because WE love the brethren. I Jn 3:14
16. Unto Him be glory IN THE CHURCH, by Jesus Christ throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. (Eph 5:25)
These verses are just some of the evidence of "corporate" salvation of the people of God by/in the kingdom of God, the church.

 

[agedman]

I believe the inspired message in scripture is not based on time travel theology, where the sequence given in scripture can be ignored so as to avoid conflicts with man-made doctrine.

Rom 8:29
For those whom He foreknew,(preplanned) He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Rom 11:2

God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew (had arranged.) Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

1Pe 1:20
For He was foreknown (part of the redemption plan) before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

Act 2:23
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge (preplanned) of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.

1Pe 1:2

according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, [fn]to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace]be yours in the fullest measure.

Actually, time considerations are being presented by you.

You take “foreknowledge” as preplanning rather than that which is already accomplished by predetermination.

For example, in Acts 2:23, “...determination and foreknowledge...” is used.

“Determination” carries the thinking of appointment and marking out the boundaries.

“Foreknowledge” carries the determined outcome, the prognosis by God that is already accomplished.

I am suggesting that perhaps rather than presenting “foreknowledge” as what is preplanned in the aspects of human construct, the words be presented as that which is already outside of time, space, distance constraints an accomplished fact.

To humans, who are constrained by time, distance, space, such determinations are foreign to our perspectives.

For example:
“Prognosis,” (πρόγνωσις) used by the science and the medical community (translated “foreknowledge” in the Scriptures), to humans is attempting to predict an expected outcome, it carries by nature of the usage at least some measure of hope, science, insight ... but always with some measure of doubt.

However, the God of all has no such presentation of hope with some element of doubt. His foreknowledge is an already accomplished fact.

He has already established the boundaries and determination of the end results.

This is not to be taken as to argue your thread, but to enlarge your perspective upon the topic into an area that some may not have considered.

 

[Van]

I think the key is to see that part of the known before knowledge or plan is being utilized in the present. That is why foreknown rather than known is employed in the texts. Jesus was chosen to be our Redeemer before creation, and is carrying out God's redemption plan in the here and now. (1 Peter 1:20)

In Acts 26:5 Paul uses the same (known beforehand word) which explain that those who knew him in his youth could testify he had lived as a Pharisee at the present time. The same pattern can be shown for all the usages in the text.

One more example, in 2 Peter 3:17, you see they were warned beforehand so they could avoid the pitfall now.

Bottom line, foreknown refers to past knowledge or planning being utilized in the present. No time travel required.

 

[The Biblicist]

I'll concede that point, that the Christ was chosen.

Then one must also agree that that lends support for individual choosing taking place prior to the foundation, for, if Christ (the individual) was chosen prior to the world then it follows that those "in Christ" would also be individually chosen prior to the world.

But chosen for what? Not for salvation but to be the one within the Trinity to become flesh and provide redemption.

So, this proves nothing with regard to individual or corporate election.

 

[The Biblicist]

By faith are we descendents of Abraham.

That is simply not true. Faith reveals we are descendents but does not procure us as his descendants. We are as Isaac, promised children according to God's purpose and supernaturally born children in keeping with God's purpose. Faith procures nothing but justification. There is no spiritual or physical union with Gentile believers with Abraham. He is simply the first pattern in scripture of justification by faith and in that sense we are children of Abraham as that pattern characterizes our response to the gospel.

Corporate election denies that God chose us in him before the foundation of the world. Instead, it teaches that God only foreknew before the world who would choose Christ, and rubber stamped it making his choice consequential and our choice causal. However, that is not what scriptures teach about election or foreknowledge.

 

[JonShaff]

That is simply not true. Faith reveals we are descendents but does not procure us as his descendants.

Corporate election denies that God chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

Interesting, so you believe in a Pre-existence like the mormons do? Maybe i misunderstand you (my apologies if i did)

 

[The Biblicist]

Interesting, so you believe in a Pre-existence like the mormons do? Maybe i misunderstand you (my apologies if i did)

You have indeed misunderstood me! Paul is teaching we were chosen in him before the world began based on His purpose and execution of that purpose (Eph. 1:5-11). With regard to time we had no existence prior to our birth in time and space.

 

[The Biblicist]

Interesting, so you believe in a Pre-existence like the mormons do? Maybe i misunderstand you (my apologies if i did)

Again, we are as Isaac with regard to purpose and supernatural provision not as Arminianism that defines the cause with foreseen human choice.

 

[The Biblicist]

AGain, faith is NOTHING if it is not inclusive of "substance" as the basis for "hope." That "substance" is the truth of the gospel which alone furnishes us hope and the truth of the gospel is about the Person and work of Christ in our behalf.

Hence, this business about "faith" being "credited as righteousness" instead of object of faith, which is the substance of justifying faith is pure nonsense.

 

[JonShaff]

You have indeed misunderstood me! Paul is teaching we were chosen in him before the world began based on His purpose and execution of that purpose (Eph. 1:5-11). With regard to time we had no existence prior to our birth in time and space.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

So, explain Galatians 3:6-9. I do not see how that accords with what you are saying. Thank you!

 

[The Biblicist]

Interesting, so you believe in a Pre-existence like the mormons do? Maybe i misunderstand you (my apologies if i did)

With regard to becoming children of Abraham the Bible explicitly states we are as Isaac. do you believe God foresaw Isaacs decision to become Abraham's child? Obviously that would be foolish. But our view fits perfectly with how Isaac became a child of Abraham - Purpose by God, empowered impotent body of Sarah by God, supernatural birth that produced choices by Isaac.

 

[The Biblicist]

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

So, explain Galatians 3:6-9. I do not see how that accords with what you are saying. Thank you!

Apology accepted. I don't see how Galatians 3:6-9 contradicts anything I have stated or believe. Maybe you can point out what you think is there if there is a there there?

 

[The Biblicist]

I disagree.

To me, that passage clearly teaches that God has chosen the believer through both sanctification of the Spirit / spirit, and belief of the truth..

This text does not say we were chosen through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth! I repeat it does not say that. It says, we are "chosen UNTO SALVATION" and this salvation is procurred through sanctification of the (setting apart by regeneration) and belief of the truth (justification by faith).

I think you believe this but your opponent is the one distorting this text.