Again no scripture says that either
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Christ died for the dead in hell?
- Thread starter Duzt
- Start date
Again no scripture says that either
See Gospel of John and Romans!
Look, don't tell me to see anything. If you cannot quote the exact scripture and then give your explanation of it and break it down why it should be interpreted your way then these little responses are of no value.
Jesus said to them that He first chose them to be His Apostles, and He also said that only His own sheep hear His voice and follow him.
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I don't see how John 1:12 supports your position. Care to elucidate?
I am responding to your opening post, I did not read the following which no doubt reflected the [Edit] views of Calvinism.
Christ died as a ransom for all, so anyone chosen for salvation can be justified by the washing of regeneration.
Now lets consider dying, paying the ransom, for those who will be never saved, including those already consigned to Hades.
Is that what scripture says? Yes! So the real issue is in our understanding of "dying for the sin of the world." Did this pay for the sins of the lost, and so to punish the lost in Hades would be "double payment" as our Calvinist friends would contend?
Think about the ransom as an "oil lease." The oil was bought but the owner can extract all, some or none of the oil. Now when the oil is transferred into the owners facility, it is refined, processed, and in our case we underwent the circumcision of Christ which removed our sin burden (what God held against us for our specific individual sins). So in Christ, in the owners facility, we are made holy, blameless, perfect and alive through the precious blood of the Lamb. But what about the oil that is not extracted, that is left in the realm of darkness. It was bought with a price, but the owner did not choose to extract it, to transfer it from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of His Son.
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Jesus Christ was chosen to be our Savior before the creation of the world (1 Pet. 1:20).
When the Father chose Christ, he also chose us "in Him." (Ephesians 1:4).
We are first united with Christ in regeneration. (John 3:3 & 7).
Second we live according to our union with Christ through faith. (Hebrews 10:38).
Third, we are justified in union with Christ. (Romans 3:24).
Fourth, we are sanctified through our union with Christ. (1 Corinthians 6:11).
And fifth, we persevere in the life of faith in union with Christ. (Jude 1).
And will, finally, one day be eternally glorified with Christ. (Romans 8:30).
This eternal (before time) choice was not based on the fact that God knew which persons would believe of their own free will, for there is no person which fits that description.
This decision was based upon God's sovereign good pleasure alone. It is God's gracious decision, from eternity past, to save fallen souls of His own choosing. Therefore, God will infallibly bring all of His elect to final perseverance and eternal life (Phil 1:6; John 10:29; Rom 8:30; John 6:37, 39).
The Persons of the Trinity work together to accomplish and apply salvation.
The Father, from eternity, elects a particular people for Himself (Ephesians 1:4, 5; Rom 8:29, 30).
Christ redeems those the Father has given Him (John 6:37, 39; 10:29).
The Holy Spirit applies the redemptive benefits of the atonement to the elect. (John 1:13; 6:63; James 1:18, 1 Peter 1:23,25).
So, I don't disagree that we are elect in Christ. But I see that election to be individual as well as corporate. We, individually, are chosen to be placed in Christ, then all those in Christ are elect unto salvation, sanctification, preservation, and eventual glorification.
When the Father chose Christ, he also chose us "in Him." (Ephesians 1:4).
We are first united with Christ in regeneration. (John 3:3 & 7).
Second we live according to our union with Christ through faith. (Hebrews 10:38).
Third, we are justified in union with Christ. (Romans 3:24).
Fourth, we are sanctified through our union with Christ. (1 Corinthians 6:11).
And fifth, we persevere in the life of faith in union with Christ. (Jude 1).
And will, finally, one day be eternally glorified with Christ. (Romans 8:30).
This eternal (before time) choice was not based on the fact that God knew which persons would believe of their own free will, for there is no person which fits that description.
This decision was based upon God's sovereign good pleasure alone. It is God's gracious decision, from eternity past, to save fallen souls of His own choosing. Therefore, God will infallibly bring all of His elect to final perseverance and eternal life (Phil 1:6; John 10:29; Rom 8:30; John 6:37, 39).
The Persons of the Trinity work together to accomplish and apply salvation.
The Father, from eternity, elects a particular people for Himself (Ephesians 1:4, 5; Rom 8:29, 30).
Christ redeems those the Father has given Him (John 6:37, 39; 10:29).
The Holy Spirit applies the redemptive benefits of the atonement to the elect. (John 1:13; 6:63; James 1:18, 1 Peter 1:23,25).
So, I don't disagree that we are elect in Christ. But I see that election to be individual as well as corporate. We, individually, are chosen to be placed in Christ, then all those in Christ are elect unto salvation, sanctification, preservation, and eventual glorification.
Okay, now let's look at the Ordo Salutis. That seems to be the primary point of departure.
The gospel declares that repentance and faith (which God commands of us) are themselves God's working in us both to will and to do (2 Tim 2:25, Eph 2:5, 8).
And not something that the sinner himself contributes towards the price of His salvation.
Repentance and faith can only be exercised by a soul after, and in immediate consequence of, its regeneration by the Holy Spirit (1 John 5:1; Acts 16:14b; Acts 13:48; John 10:24-26; Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 6:37; John 1:13; 1 Cor. 4:7; 1 Cor. 15:10; Jas. 1:17; John 3:27).
God regenerates, and we, in the exercise of the new ability given by grace, can repent.
God disarms the opposition of the human heart, subduing the hostility of the carnal mind, and with irresistible power (John 6:37), draws His chosen ones to Christ.
The gospel confesses "We love him because He first loved us." Before that we had no desire for God, God's regenerating grace gives us desire, willingness and delight in His Person and commands. Faith and works are the evidence of new birth, not the cause of it.
For some excellent articles I suggest Monergism |.
The gospel declares that repentance and faith (which God commands of us) are themselves God's working in us both to will and to do (2 Tim 2:25, Eph 2:5, 8).
And not something that the sinner himself contributes towards the price of His salvation.
Repentance and faith can only be exercised by a soul after, and in immediate consequence of, its regeneration by the Holy Spirit (1 John 5:1; Acts 16:14b; Acts 13:48; John 10:24-26; Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 6:37; John 1:13; 1 Cor. 4:7; 1 Cor. 15:10; Jas. 1:17; John 3:27).
God regenerates, and we, in the exercise of the new ability given by grace, can repent.
God disarms the opposition of the human heart, subduing the hostility of the carnal mind, and with irresistible power (John 6:37), draws His chosen ones to Christ.
The gospel confesses "We love him because He first loved us." Before that we had no desire for God, God's regenerating grace gives us desire, willingness and delight in His Person and commands. Faith and works are the evidence of new birth, not the cause of it.
For some excellent articles I suggest Monergism |.
We were chosen corporately before the foundation of the world as the target group of God's redemption plan, not individually. Why? Because we are chosen individually for salvation through faith in the truth, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
Regeneration then faith[/QUOTE]
Passage. Thanks.
OTOH, we are made alive together with Christ, and we are chosen through faith in the truth, so the biblical sequence is (1) God credited faith, (2) transfer (sanctification by the Spirit) and (3) regeneration after God puts us into Christ.
Also we are saved by grace through faith, thus our faith, when credited as righteousness by God, is the faith through which we are saved.
Also we are saved by grace through faith, thus our faith, when credited as righteousness by God, is the faith through which we are saved.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his, And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness..Rom 8:9,10
What part does the Spirit, I assume Holy Spirit, have to do with being, united with Christ?
What part if any does the Spirit, again I assume the Holy Spirit have to do with our being regenerated?
What part does the Spirit, I assume Holy Spirit, have to do with being, united with Christ?
What part if any does the Spirit, again I assume the Holy Spirit have to do with our being regenerated?
The benefits of Christ's substitutionary sacrifice are applied to the elect when they are chosen and transferred into Christ.
Felipe Rios
Member
Though I'm not a Calvinist I agree with you. Now, I don't think all Calvinists would agree with you on this. I have heard many say that Jesus died for the elect ONLY.
You are correct. TCassidy is not a Calvinist, according to him.
I don't use the term because it carries way too much baggage.
But I stand firmly on TULI(E)P.
Passage. Thanks.[/QUOTE]
See TCassidy post # 33!
Curious.....what would that do for the dead already in hell?