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Christ Is Not A Goat-Herder

psalms109:31

Active Member
I can confirm that. I have not PM-ed Rippon at all.

I don't find anything wrong with Lambs post we all can come up with conclusions. Hyperbole is if the shoe fits where it. Many are to the path of their own destruction and trying to get men to follow them.

2 Peter 3:15-17

15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

These people are the goats not men who have no Shephard, but sheep who are being mislead, by their own understanding given to them by those in above scripture.

I do hope one day we see the need of more workers and see the harvest, and pray as Christ ask us to pray
 
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psalms109:31

Active Member
Jesus can accept a dog as His own like me who just begged at the table there is hope for you, turn to Jesus and He will make you one of His own.
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
We should not ignore this, the sheep that followed these false teachers are already lead to the pit of destruction by these false teachers. They have already been judged. The sheep that have not will see the fate of these false teachers.

James 3:1
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.
 
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Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
2 Peter 3:15-17

15 "Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."

These people are the goats, not men who have no Shepherd, but sheep who are being misled, by their own understanding given to them by those in above scripture.

"These people are the goats,... sheep who are being misled..."

When will you ever learn? Sheep are sheep. Goats are goats. These people in 2 Peter 3 cannot be both sheep and goats. Goats do not become sheep and sheep do not become goats. Get it? Whew!
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
People are people they are not sheep or goats. It is a hyperbole. I am telling you what goats was used for at that time with the sheep. Goats lead sheep to pits for slaughter.
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I brought this up in another thread which had veered off-course.

I was emphasizing that the Bible places a value on words. There would be no point to the multitude of places in God's Word which discusses sheep and the Shepherd, if in reality, the Lord intended that the goats are also intended in the flock.

Hebrews 13:20:"Now may the God of peace -- who brought up from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great Shepherd of the sheep, and ratified an eternal covenant with his blood" ( NLTse )

The sheep in Scripture belong to Christ. He laid down His life specifically for them. The goats are not among those for whom He sacrificed His life. How could the goats be among the number for whom He died?

In Matthew 26:31-46 the sheep and the goats are separated. The former enter glory with the Lord, the latter enter everlasting misery.

The Lord does not know certain ones the Bible says. The ones He does not know are the goats. Christ did not die for the ones that He did not know (in an intimate sense, foreloved).

Christ loves His sheep. He doesn't love them because they merit that love.All of us deserve everlasting condemnation. None of us have a claim on God. The Lord has the perfect right to do whatever pleases Him. He shows mercy to anyone He so chooses. On the other hand, He hardens the heart of whomever He chooses.He's God, He has the right due to His Sovereignty. Does anyone have a problem with that?! Who do you think you are talking back to God?!

Jacob was not any better ( in fact he looks worse ) than Esau. But God eternally loved the former, and eternally hated the latter. Let's review. Jacob=a sheep, and Esau=a goat.

There are so many references to the sheep and the Shepherd. Peter was told by the Lord three times to feed or tend His sheep.The Lord spoke of the one sheep that He sought at the expense of leaving the others behind. The examples can be multiplied.

The sheep are sheep before conversion.They enter this life under the wrath of God like everyone else. They are God-haters like everyone else. But, since Christ loves them, and has foreordained that they will believe -- the Father draws them to the Son.In their lifetime they are regenerated.

As I said, the sheep do not become sheep. The goats do not become goats -- they are presently. Remember,the sheep=the elect= the Church=the Body=the saints= His possession etc.

The Bible uses other designations for the non-elect in addition to the word 'goats'. It employs the words 'serpents','vipers','snakes', 'foxes' ,'wolves' etc. But ultimately there will be only two groups -- the sheep and the goats.

A sheep is one who is eternally safe in the loving arms of Christ where no one and no thing can separate us from Him.

Christ is not a Goat-Herder. He is the Good and Great Shepherd of His sheep alone. John 10:11:"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep."( NLTse, see verses 15,17 and 18 also).
A request was made to revive this thread as it pertains to another.

See if you can agree that my OP here is biblically sound.

Mods, you can move this to the Cal/Arm debate area if you wish.
 

Jordan Kurecki

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I brought this up in another thread which had veered off-course.
In answer to your question, the entire post is not sound biblically.
I was emphasizing that the Bible places a value on words. There would be no point to the multitude of places in God's Word which discusses sheep and the Shepherd, if in reality, the Lord intended that the goats are also intended in the flock.
This whole comparison of sheep and goats being compared as saved vs. unsaved is not biblical. It is only made once in Scripture, and that is made in reference to "The Judgement of Nations" which occurs just before the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom. Nowhere else is this comparison used.
In fact, goats are perfectly acceptable sacrifices in the OT.
And, sheep are often compared to the unsaved.

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
--This applies to all the world.

Hebrews 13:20:"Now may the God of peace -- who brought up from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great Shepherd of the sheep, and ratified an eternal covenant with his blood" ( NLTse )
To all that believe on him. That is who he was addressing in the Book of Hebrews.
The sheep in Scripture belong to Christ. He laid down His life specifically for them. The goats are not among those for whom He sacrificed His life. How could the goats be among the number for whom He died?
Sheep are not being compared to goats. Give evidence of that outside of the judgment of nations.
Christ laid down his life for the sins of the world; His sacrifice is efficacious to all who believe on him.
In Matthew 26:31-46 the sheep and the goats are separated. The former enter glory with the Lord, the latter enter everlasting misery.
As I said--The Judgement of Nations.

The Lord does not know certain ones the Bible says.
The Lord knows all; he is omniscient.
The ones He does not know are the goats. Christ did not die for the ones that He did not know ( in an intimate sense, foreloved ).
He died for all; He loved all. He does not have "two kinds of love." He is divine not prejudiced.
Christ loves His sheep. He doesn't love them because they merit that love.
Here is one of your errors: that you could even think that salvation is "of merit." Who do you think believes that. There are some Calvinistic posters that believe "faith" is a work, and therefore one cannot be "saved by faith," because it would be by works. Is this what you mean?
All of us deserve everlasting condemnation. None of us have a claim on God. The Lord has the perfect right to do whatever pleases Him. He shows mercy to anyone He so chooses. On the other hand, He hardens the heart of whomever He chooses.He's God, He has the right due to His Sovereignty. Does anyone have a problem with that?! Who do you think you are talking back to God?!
You have a warped sense of the sovereignty of God as well as a misunderstanding of the love of God.

Exodus 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
--He is merciful and forgiving. Those are two of his greatest attributes.

Jacob was not any better ( in fact he looks worse ) than Esau.But God eternally loved the former, and eternally hated the latter.Let's review. Jacob=a sheep, and Esau=a goat.
Not true. The sheep/goat differentiation is a false comparison.
The Lord knew before time (while they were yet in the womb) that Jacob would obey him and Esau would not. IOW, "faith" was the basis of God's divine "choosing."

There are so many references to the sheep and the Shepherd.Peter was told by the Lord three times to feed or tend His sheep.The Lord spoke of the one sheep that He sought at the expense of leaving the others behind. The examples can be multiplied.

The sheep are sheep before conversion.They enter this life under the wrath of God like everyone else. They are God-haters like everyone else. But, since Christ loves them, and has foreordained that they will believe -- the Father draws them to the Son.In their lifetime they are regenerated.
Yes, Jesus plainly said to the woman of Canaan:
Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
--Jesus came to seek and to save the lost?
Which lost? He first concentrated on the lost Jews. After those lost Jews were saved (his disciples and then Pentecost), they were to go to the lost Samaritans, (Acts 8), and then to the lost Gentiles (Acts 10), and so the Great Commission was carried out, and is still being carried out today. The lost are all over this world and need to be saved. Jesus died for the lost. Those that believe shall be saved.
As I said, the sheep do not become sheep. The goats do not become goats -- they are presently.Remember,the sheep=the elect= the Church=the Body=the saints= His possession etc.
Again, you have a false dichotomy.
Jesus went searching for a "lost sheep," not a lost goat.
A lost coin, not a lost goat, etc.
And concerning "the Church", there is no such thing as a Universal Church.
Ekklesia refers only to local church as the word means assembly.

The Bible uses other designations for the non-elect in addition to the word 'goats'. It employs the words 'serpents','vipers','snakes', 'foxes' ,'wolves' etc. But ultimately there will be only two groups -- the sheep and the goats.
Goats are not used until the Judgment of the nations.
The other words all have a particular meaning depending on the context in which it is used.
For example:
Nehemiah 4:3 Now Tobiah the Ammonite was by him, and he said, Even that which they build, if a fox go up, he shall even break down their stone wall.
--The word "fox" was used simply because they were numerous in number and did no harm. They were not innately evil. They were harmless. It was said in scorn.

Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.
--On this verse A.T. Roberson says:
This epithet for the cunning and cowardice of Herod shows clearly that Jesus understood the real attitude and character of the man who had put John the Baptist to death and evidently wanted to get Jesus into his power in spite of his superstitious fears that he might be John the Baptist redivivus.
--Obviously neither one has the meaning of unsaved or false teacher, etc.

A sheep is one who is eternally safe in the loving arms of Christ where no one and no thing can separate us from Him.

Christ is not a Goat-Herder. He is the Good and Great Shepherd of His sheep alone. John 10:11:"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep."( NLTse, see verses 15,17 and 18 also).
No one said Christ is a goat herder. Why would you imply he was?
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sheep are always sheep. Why? Before the foundation of the world, God chose a multitude of wicked sinners to give to His Son. His Son then came in the form of a Servant, took their sins upon Himself, died and atoned for them, shed His blood for them, them by His blood, laid in the heart of the earth for three days and nights for them, arose and ascended for their justification, and will come back for them. They were always sheep because Christ is the Lamb slain from the creation of the world.[Rev. 13:8]
 

revmwc

Well-Known Member
I brought this up in another thread which had veered off-course.

I was emphasizing that the Bible places a value on words. There would be no point to the multitude of places in God's Word which discusses sheep and the Shepherd, if in reality, the Lord intended that the goats are also intended in the flock.

Hebrews 13:20:"Now may the God of peace -- who brought up from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great Shepherd of the sheep, and ratified an eternal covenant with his blood" ( NLTse )

The sheep in Scripture belong to Christ. He laid down His life specifically for them. The goats are not among those for whom He sacrificed His life. How could the goats be among the number for whom He died?

In Matthew 26:31-46 the sheep and the goats are separated. The former enter glory with the Lord, the latter enter everlasting misery.

The Lord does not know certain ones the Bible says. The ones He does not know are the goats. Christ did not die for the ones that He did not know ( in an intimate sense, foreloved ).

Christ loves His sheep. He doesn't love them because they merit that love.All of us deserve everlasting condemnation. None of us have a claim on God. The Lord has the perfect right to do whatever pleases Him. He shows mercy to anyone He so chooses. On the other hand, He hardens the heart of whomever He chooses.He's God, He has the right due to His Sovereignty. Does anyone have a problem with that?! Who do you think you are talking back to God?!

Jacob was not any better ( in fact he looks worse ) than Esau.But God eternally loved the former, and eternally hated the latter.Let's review. Jacob=a sheep, and Esau=a goat.

There are so many references to the sheep and the Shepherd.Peter was told by the Lord three times to feed or tend His sheep.The Lord spoke of the one sheep that He sought at the expense of leaving the others behind. The examples can be multiplied.

The sheep are sheep before conversion.They enter this life under the wrath of God like everyone else. They are God-haters like everyone else. But, since Christ loves them, and has foreordained that they will believe -- the Father draws them to the Son.In their lifetime they are regenerated.

As I said, the sheep do not become sheep. The goats do not become goats -- they are presently.Remember,the sheep=the elect= the Church=the Body=the saints= His possession etc.

The Bible uses other designations for the non-elect in addition to the word 'goats'. It employs the words 'serpents','vipers','snakes', 'foxes' ,'wolves' etc. But ultimately there will be only two groups -- the sheep and the goats.

A sheep is one who is eternally safe in the loving arms of Christ where no one and no thing can separate us from Him.

Christ is not a Goat-Herder. He is the Good and Great Shepherd of His sheep alone. John 10:11:"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep."( NLTse, see verses 15,17 and 18 also).

And when one goes astray He seeks after them. For the Carnal Christian God chastens them. The church is to speak out about it and when they repent and return as the Prodigal did they are to receive them back because Christ has already kept them in His hand while they were not walking with Him.

Many who think they are safe by their works and many who look at those who do good works and say what a good sheep they are but when they face Christ tehy will find Him say:

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we no prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Hmm interesting Christ said they work iniquity by prophesying in His name, casting out devils in His name and done many wonderful works in His name and yet they are goats.

While they accuse others of not being sheep the Greatest thing is His sheep hear His voice and no matter what others may accuse them of or call them they are Christ sheep. You can't tell a sheep by the outward appearance God is the only one who knows the inward man.
 
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Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In answer to your question, the entire post is not sound biblically.

This whole comparison of sheep and goats being compared as saved vs. unsaved is not biblical.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Rippon
This is proof the op is solid:thumbsup:
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
In answer to your question, the entire post is not sound biblically.

This whole comparison of sheep and goats being compared as saved vs. unsaved is not biblical.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Rippon
This is proof the op is solid:thumbsup:
Your going to learn next that the tares are the same as the wheat
 

Reformed

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Unfortunately, this is not a Scriptural position and does not acknowledge that salvation belongs to the Lord - not to Man - we lost any right and ability when Adam sinned against God.

Hey, JD! Me thinks we know each other.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
In answer to your question, the entire post is not sound biblically.

This whole comparison of sheep and goats being compared as saved vs. unsaved is not biblical.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Rippon
This is proof the op is solid:thumbsup:
Your going to learn next that the tares are the same as the wheat

Was the goat a emblem of the unbeliever?
Leviticus 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
--It was used as a sin-offering and pictured Christ.
Do you still think it pictures the unsaved?

There is only one place in the Bible where the Lord separates the sheep from the goats, and that doesn't involve "the saved."
It is at the end of the Tribulation. The "saved" were spared from the Tribulation via the Rapture. At this time Christ had just come and saved the Jews. He is establishing His Kingdom (Millennial Kingdom). But there are still many from the tribulation that will enter in. On what basis?
In Mat.24, it is called "The Judgment of the Nations."
Those nations that were "friends to Israel" will be allowed in, and those enemies of Israel (and Christ) will not be allowed in. This is the only place where the sheep are differentiated from the goats.
To use this metaphor throughout the Bible is not good hermeneutics IMO, especially since goats are used for other things. Also, sheep are symbolic for both saved and unsaved alike. Jesus sought out "lost sheep."
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Was the goat a emblem of the unbeliever?
Leviticus 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
--It was used as a sin-offering and pictured Christ.
Do you still think it pictures the unsaved?

There is only one place in the Bible where the Lord separates the sheep from the goats, and that doesn't involve "the saved."
It is at the end of the Tribulation. The "saved" were spared from the Tribulation via the Rapture. At this time Christ had just come and saved the Jews. He is establishing His Kingdom (Millennial Kingdom). But there are still many from the tribulation that will enter in. On what basis?
In Mat.24, it is called "The Judgment of the Nations."
Those nations that were "friends to Israel" will be allowed in, and those enemies of Israel (and Christ) will not be allowed in. This is the only place where the sheep are differentiated from the goats.
To use this metaphor throughout the Bible is not good hermeneutics IMO, especially since goats are used for other things. Also, sheep are symbolic for both saved and unsaved alike. Jesus sought out "lost sheep."

You up badly confused by this whole issue I hope I can get to a keyboard soon:type::type:
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Was the goat a emblem of the unbeliever?
Leviticus 16:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
--It was used as a sin-offering and pictured Christ.
Do you still think it pictures the unsaved?

There is only one place in the Bible where the Lord separates the sheep from the goats, and that doesn't involve "the saved."
It is at the end of the Tribulation. The "saved" were spared from the Tribulation via the Rapture. At this time Christ had just come and saved the Jews. He is establishing His Kingdom (Millennial Kingdom). But there are still many from the tribulation that will enter in. On what basis?
In Mat.24, it is called "The Judgment of the Nations."
Those nations that were "friends to Israel" will be allowed in, and those enemies of Israel (and Christ) will not be allowed in. This is the only place where the sheep are differentiated from the goats.
To use this metaphor throughout the Bible is not good hermeneutics IMO, especially since goats are used for other things. Also, sheep are symbolic for both saved and unsaved alike. Jesus sought out "lost sheep."


Ezekiel 34....

I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.[vs 34]

The sheep are not just the Jews monsieur. They are scattered all over the world.

My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.[vs 6]

Again, His sheep are all over the world. That is why 'God so loved the world.' That is why Christ said “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”[Matt. 28:18-20]
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Ezekiel 34....

I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.[vs 34]

The sheep are not just the Jews monsieur. They are scattered all over the world.

My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.[vs 6]

Again, His sheep are all over the world. That is why 'God so loved the world.' That is why Christ said “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”[Matt. 28:18-20]
I have no argument here. A shepherd herds sheep. That is true. The shepherds in the OT also had goats. Goats were used for an offering for sin. Only one time in scripture is there a division between sheep and goats. And that is well into the future after the resurrection.
It is simply my belief that that metaphor is over-used, and that is all. It is an opinion, not a doctrine.
However, goats are used significantly in the Bible, and sheep are used to represent lost people. Jesus came to seek the "Lost sheep of Israel." Hence sheep are not always the saved. The metaphor of sheep and goats is not always so consistent as between sheep and lost sheep.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have no argument here. A shepherd herds sheep. That is true. The shepherds in the OT also had goats. Goats were used for an offering for sin. Only one time in scripture is there a division between sheep and goats. And that is well into the future after the resurrection.
It is simply my belief that that metaphor is over-used, and that is all. It is an opinion, not a doctrine.
However, goats are used significantly in the Bible, and sheep are used to represent lost people. Jesus came to seek the "Lost sheep of Israel." Hence sheep are not always the saved. The metaphor of sheep and goats is not always so consistent as between sheep and lost sheep.

Why was a goat an acceptable offering for sin, monsieur?
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ezekiel 34....

I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land.[vs 34]

The sheep are not just the Jews monsieur. They are scattered all over the world.

My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.[vs 6]

Again, His sheep are all over the world. That is why 'God so loved the world.' That is why Christ said “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”[Matt. 28:18-20]




Once again you have a correct understanding...and show you are not at all confused on this issue.
Evidently this topic makes some Mal a LA tete....???
 
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