Christians are not required to tithe

[AresMan]

I'm addrssing this seperately because that may well be the way you define legalism. I define it as a way invented by men to earn merit with God for ones own benefit.

That's still similar to the way I define it. It is any teaching or practice the assumes favor or disfavor from God based upon following something that God really has not said in His Word, yet treating it as such.

We live under grace. Grace allows a man to obey the law and even though he's broken the law it gives him no license to sin.

I agree. However, my point is that the Bible never defines an obligation for Christians to give a consistent so-called "tithe" of net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a church. Therefore, it is not a sin for a Christian not to "tithe."

Knowing to good and doing it not is sin to that man.

I agree. What does James 4:17 have to do with whether a Christian commits to giving X amount to a church instead of Y amount? Giving to a church ministry is good. Giving consistently to a church ministry is good. Giving more with proper stewardship is better than giving less. Whatever you sow, you will reap. God loves a cheerful giver who gives not of necessity. There is no magical threshold that determines whether giving is good or bad concerning Christian ministry other than that it is done cheerfully (2 Cor 9:7) and that everyone's needs are met (I Joh 3:17).

The economy of God has, and always will operate on the tenth of the increase of His followers.

You have not proven this assertion. You have not proven that the Bible has any prescription that obligates a Christian to give 10% of his net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a church.

I speak as the accounts payable clerk, it's a perfect method.

It may be a perfectly good way to budget ministry giving, which is good. This thread, however is about whether Christians are required to "tithe" (especially the modern church definition), which, of course, requires Scriptural proof. This would also be a post hoc argument.

Objection to the tithe is against what is mathematically perfect. God is perfect. Objection then goes against what God has given to make sure his work goes forward financially.

You are begging the question. The proof of whether a Christian is required to give 10% or more of his net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a church must be found in the Scriptures. This assertion is what the thread is about.

It worked in the Old Testament and would work much better if all God's people TITHED!

Israelite landowners following God's specific laws of obeying several tithes of the increase of the crops and livestock of the fields for annual feasts, for Levites, and tri-annually for poor and foreigners, and your misguided assertion of 10% of one's net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income are not the same thing. You need to define the term first from the Bible before you can prove your assertion.

 

[Alcott]

The economy of God has, and always will operate on the tenth of the increase of His followers. I speak as the accounts payable clerk, it's a perfect method.

The "economy?" What economy?

Objection to the tithe is against what is mathematically perfect. God is perfect. Objection then goes against what God has given to make sure his work goes forward financially.

No matter what you mean by this, I have told you that I have tested God, according to the oft-quoted Malachi passage, as to whether there will be "financial blessings" as we often hear, and the test fails.

It worked in the Old Testament and would work much better if all God's people TITHED!

If "all God's people" means church members, and the body to be tithed to is the individual's church, that would just lead to pastors and ministers living like Kenneth Copeland and those guys-- million dollar houses, private jets, air conditioned doghouses, et al.

I remember one guy who was interviewed about this matter, who made several million a year, who always tithed to his church, saying he knew he would be worse off financially if he did not tithe. Where do these ideas come from?

 

[AresMan]

Oh, ok, so this tyrant you're describing makes people suffer for other's wrong doing?

No. I said that the people were also responsible for breaking the Law.

Mal 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.

However, the priests received the brunt of the accusation and punishment for their responsibility in misleading the people. The priests were specifically cursed:

Mal 2:1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.
Mal 2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
Mal 2:3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.
Mal 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.

OK, so you object to supporting your local church with money, how is it your church survives and pays the bills?

How did you ever infer this? What I have been trying to argue is that the tithe in the Bible is not what most teach it as today, and that the Bible itself gives no room for an honest hermeneutical application of the context of the tithe to one's individual monetary income and in the context of the church.

1. The Bible nowhere defines the tithe in terms of income.
2. The Bible nowhere defines the tithe in terms of money.
3. The Bible nowhere defines the tithe in terms of the church.

The Bible, however, does obligate Christians to give financially to their church. It does not define this in terms of a "tithe." There is no "tithe" threshold that determines what qualifies as adequate giving to a church.

The parameters of NT church giving are:

1. Abundantly
2. Cheerfully
3. Not of necessity
4. Meeting needs

 

[Harold Garvey]

That's still similar to the way I define it. It is any teaching or practice the assumes favor or disfavor from God based upon following something that God really has not said in His Word, yet treating it as such.

I agree. However, my point is that the Bible never defines an obligation for Christians to give a consistent so-called "tithe" of net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a church. Therefore, it is not a sin for a Christian not to "tithe."

I agree. What does James 4:17 have to do with whether a Christian commits to giving X amount to a church instead of Y amount? Giving to a church ministry is good. Giving consistently to a church ministry is good. Giving more with proper stewardship is better than giving less. Whatever you sow, you will reap. God loves a cheerful giver who gives not of necessity. There is no magical threshold that determines whether giving is good or bad concerning Christian ministry other than that it is done cheerfully (2 Cor 9:7) and that everyone's needs are met (I Joh 3:17).

You have not proven this assertion. You have not proven that the Bible has any prescription that obligates a Christian to give 10% of his net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a church.

It may be a perfectly good way to budget ministry giving, which is good. This thread, however is about whether Christians are required to "tithe" (especially the modern church definition), which, of course, requires Scriptural proof. This would also be a post hoc argument.

You are begging the question. The proof of whether a Christian is required to give 10% or more of his net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a church must be found in the Scriptures. This assertion is what the thread is about.

Israelite landowners following God's specific laws of obeying several tithes of the increase of the crops and livestock of the fields for annual feasts, for Levites, and tri-annually for poor and foreigners, and your misguided assertion of 10% of one's net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income are not the same thing. You need to define the term first from the Bible before you can prove your assertion.

It doesn't matter how you define it. I have found God to be true and every man a liar, it says so in the Bible.

It is an economic fact that 10% is the operating margin for a business. are you to tell me that the church should not atleast expect what it takes to operate a business to do God's bidding?

The church is to be the most prominent and best appearing structure in any town, yet mostly the governement buildings far look better than most churches.

The bottom line is it takes finances to operate a ministry. God blesses giving to the local church far above and beyond expectation.

You're hung up on the term "tithe".

 

[rbell]

The church is to be the most prominent and best appearing structure in any town

Where on earth is your Biblical justification for this statement?

 

[Harold Garvey]

The "economy?" What economy?

God owns the cattle of a thousand hills/ all, yet he lends man life and the things which surround that life, good or bad. God lends, this is an economic principle as in expecting a return upon the investment. God expects our lives to glorify Him, it's what we give in return for the things he's lent.

God's work is by and through the Holy Spirit, but for men to be fully devoted to God's work he must survive. Example after example of people giving to the man of God to support him so he may carry out this work is found within the pages of the Bible.

We are all preists and should be about the business of spreading the Gospel, this requires time and funds.

That designates an economy.

No matter what you mean by this, I have told you that I have tested God, according to the oft-quoted Malachi passage, as to whether there will be "financial blessings" as we often hear, and the test fails.

you have failed miserably in not knowing God knew your heart before you ever had the maligned thought you could test Him and get away with it.

If "all God's people" means church members, and the body to be tithed to is the individual's church, that would just lead to pastors and ministers living like Kenneth Copeland and those guys-- million dollar houses, private jets, air conditioned doghouses, et al.

Depends upon the man, all are not KC.

I remember one guy who was interviewed about this matter, who made several million a year, who always tithed to his church, saying he knew he would be worse off financially if he did not tithe. Where do these ideas come from?

The Bible and experience. Mine own is that God has never left me, never forsaken me, nor have I ever been found begging bread. I tithe. I give above my tithe. I give to missions. My concept of tithing is not what your average "tithe preacher" says it should be. I tithe of my increase, not my intake. It's an economic scam to tell people to tithe on their intake when they cannot pay their legitimate bills. when one cannot pay the food bill and lives on oatmeal and rive with the occasional pot of beans and the preacher expects them to pay a tithe on the social security check they receive he is not right.

You're applying the extremities to the economy of God and making an all over concept to every person, that is wrong. God deals with us all on an individual basis.

 

[Harold Garvey]

Where on earth is your Biblical justification for this statement?

:laugh:So you think the secular world should have better things than God's people?


Does God deserve our best? He gave His BEST!

 

[rbell]

:laugh:So you think the secular world should have better things than God's people?


Does God deserve our best? He gave His BEST!

You didn't answer my question.

The church is to be the most prominent and best appearing structure in any town

Where on earth is your Biblical justification for this statement?

Did the NT church have the best buildings in town?

I have no problem with nice buildings...I do have problems trying to pretend there's a biblical justification for it.

 

[Alcott]

We are all preists and should be about the business of spreading the Gospel, this requires time and funds.

Okay, I'm a priest. Priests receive tithes. Where's mine?

you have failed miserably in not knowing God knew your heart before you ever had the maligned thought you could test Him and get away with it.

The specific instruction to test God came from who?

I remember one guy who was interviewed about this matter, who made several million a year, who always tithed to his church, saying he knew he would be worse off financially if he did not tithe. Where do these ideas come from?

The Bible and experience.

That "guy who was interviewed" was Steve Young, then quarterback of the San Francisco 49ers, whose church was/is the Mormon church. You're in good company with such ideas, aren't you?

 

[Harold Garvey]

You didn't answer my question.


Did the NT church have the best buildings in town?

I have no problem with nice buildings...I do have problems trying to pretend there's a biblical justification for it.

Then you have no problem with the masonic lodge having better landscaping than the house of God.

Which do you think deserves better?

 

[Harold Garvey]

Okay, I'm a priest. Priests receive tithes. Where's mine?



The specific instruction to test God came from who?

I remember one guy who was interviewed about this matter, who made several million a year, who always tithed to his church, saying he knew he would be worse off financially if he did not tithe. Where do these ideas come from?



That "guy who was interviewed" was Steve Young, then quarterback of the San Francisco 49ers, whose church was/is the Mormon church. You're in good company with such ideas, aren't you?

Going to all sorts of stretches aren't we?

I knew a mormon that was dirt poor and gave everything he had to his church and he is still dirt poor.:sleeping_2:

 

[Harold Garvey]

Also I KNOW a guy who used to be a junkie and started selling peanut brittle for his church, now this pentencostal is worth about 10 million and owns a 1.8 million dollar house, all paid for.

So what's your point? You've tested God and I'm trusting Him.

See any difference?

 

[rbell]

Then you have no problem with the masonic lodge having better landscaping than the house of God.

Which do you think deserves better?

Well, with that line of thinking, we should spend $100 million, and put solid gold siding on the building.

Fine if you want to feel that way...but don't act as though the Scriptures give that as a mandate. They don't.

 

[Alcott]

See any difference?

No. Christians or non-christians can be poor or they can be wealthy-- obviously tithing does not affect that. So what's your point?

And this idea, that "a church should be the most prominent and best appearing structure in any town"... wouldn't you want to belong to a church in The Bronx or in Arlington, TX? Both those new stadiums that are just starting to be used cost over a billion dollars! That would be quite a church!

 

[AresMan]

It doesn't matter how you define it.

It very much does matter how you define anything that has to do with God's Word and His presumed commands. If you believe in Sola Scriptura, then you have the obligation that anything you believe is God's expectations, you must be able to prove using Scripture.

I have found God to be true and every man a liar, it says so in the Bible.

True. What does this have to do with the issue of this thread?

It is an economic fact that 10% is the operating margin for a business.

This may or may not be the case. Regardless, it has nothing to do with what the Bible itself says about a Christian's obligation toward the ministry.

are you to tell me that the church should not atleast expect what it takes to operate a business to do God's bidding?

I am asking where does the Bible itself define an obligation for Christians to give a continual 10% of his net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a church.

The church is to be the most prominent and best appearing structure in any town, yet mostly the governement buildings far look better than most churches.

You are arguing from your opinion and feelings, and not on what the Word of God says. Even if this statement is true, where is the obligation in Scripture for a Christian to give a continual 10% of his net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a church?

The bottom line is it takes finances to operate a ministry. God blesses giving to the local church far above and beyond expectation.

I agree completely with these statements. What do they have to do with this thread, namely whether or not Christians are required to "tithe"?

You're hung up on the term "tithe".

You are assuming that there is a real obligation from God for Christians to "tithe" to a church. That is what this thread is about. It is not about whether we are giving enough to a church. It is not about whether we are meeting needs. It is about whether or not there is an obligation from God found in the Scriptures for Christians to give a continual "tithe" of net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a local church.

Just so that you are not confused, we already agree that the Bible teaches that we must give money to our church. The issue is does the Bible obligate us in some way to give 10% of our monetary income to our church and that this proportionate amount is some kind of minimum requirement or threshold of favor or disfavor.

To prove that Christians must tithe of their monetary income to a church, you must do the following:

1. Define the tithe in terms of one's income using the Scripture.
2. Define the tithe in terms of one's money (or liquidity) using the Scripture.
3. Find any tithe commands in the Scripture and show that Christians are recipients of these commands either directly or indirectly.
4. Find any passage in Scripture where the early church taught or practiced "tithing" for its operations.

 

[Harold Garvey]

Well, with that line of thinking, we should spend $100 million, and put solid gold siding on the building.

Fine if you want to feel that way...but don't act as though the Scriptures give that as a mandate. They don't.

How have I been acting?

You have some mighty strange abilities to see how I am acting.

The church building is in the public eye, much like our way of responding to each other is and how the public view us all.

If we follow your line of reasoning the public wouldn't think we were being very humble. They would also seek ways to get that gold off the building and into their pockets.

 

[Harold Garvey]

No. Christians or non-christians can be poor or they can be wealthy-- obviously tithing does not affect that. So what's your point?

I have obeyed God in tithing. I have enough to sustain my living. I have peace with God and am satisified He is at peace with me. It's called Peace like a river.

And this idea, that "a church should be the most prominent and best appearing structure in any town"... wouldn't you want to belong to a church in The Bronx or in Arlington, TX? Both those new stadiums that are just starting to be used cost over a billion dollars! That would be quite a church!

Consider what I meant and not subvert what I said into a fantastical ideal.

 

[Harold Garvey]

It very much does matter how you define anything that has to do with God's Word and His presumed commands. If you believe in Sola Scriptura, then you have the obligation that anything you believe is God's expectations, you must be able to prove using Scripture.

True. What does this have to do with the issue of this thread?

This may or may not be the case. Regardless, it has nothing to do with what the Bible itself says about a Christian's obligation toward the ministry.

I am asking where does the Bible itself define an obligation for Christians to give a continual 10% of his net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a church.

You are arguing from your opinion and feelings, and not on what the Word of God says. Even if this statement is true, where is the obligation in Scripture for a Christian to give a continual 10% of his net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a church?

I agree completely with these statements. What do they have to do with this thread, namely whether or not Christians are required to "tithe"?

You are assuming that there is a real obligation from God for Christians to "tithe" to a church. That is what this thread is about. It is not about whether we are giving enough to a church. It is not about whether we are meeting needs. It is about whether or not there is an obligation from God found in the Scriptures for Christians to give a continual "tithe" of net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a local church.

Just so that you are not confused, we already agree that the Bible teaches that we must give money to our church. The issue is does the Bible obligate us in some way to give 10% of our monetary income to our church and that this proportionate amount is some kind of minimum requirement or threshold of favor or disfavor.

To prove that Christians must tithe of their monetary income to a church, you must do the following:

1. Define the tithe in terms of one's income using the Scripture.
2. Define the tithe in terms of one's money (or liquidity) using the Scripture.
3. Find any tithe commands in the Scripture and show that Christians are recipients of these commands either directly or indirectly.
4. Find any passage in Scripture where the early church taught or practiced "tithing" for its operations.

Is tithing, giving, or is giving ten percent a tithe?

Do people give tithes according to their definition or are they required to be subject to how you define the tithe?

Are tithes paid or given?

 

[rbell]

How have I been acting?

You have some mighty strange abilities to see how I am acting.

The church building is in the public eye, much like our way of responding to each other is and how the public view us all.

If we follow your line of reasoning the public wouldn't think we were being very humble. They would also seek ways to get that gold off the building and into their pockets.

*sigh*

Again...there is nothing in the NT to suggest church buildings should be the "nicest in town."

In fact, many of our NT heroes held church in caves...catacombs...simple homes.

Look, I've made my point, and used Scripture to do it. Accept it, or don't...no matter to me. I also have no problem with churches, to a point, making their buildings nice. But that is an extraBiblical (different from unBiblical) matter.

 

[Alcott]

Are tithes paid or given?

Tenths are given; or is your church into extortion? I've never been sent a bill for any. Have you?