Christians are not required to tithe

[AresMan]

Nope. However, that IS what the Malachi passage promises if we test God. Since the test fails, the possible conclusions are: 1)the passage is a lie, 2)it only 'works' with crops and livestock, or 3)it is not applicable to us (NT Christians).

Points 2 and 3 are correct.

I will also add that the entirety of the book of Malachi is addressed to the priests. All the curses in Malachi are pronounced on the priests. The priests were robbing the people and their Levite brethren by stealing the tithes from the designated Temple storehouse chambers and rerouting them to their own chambers.

1. King Hezekiah originally built the storehouse chambers in the Temple to manage third-year tithes. (2 Chr 31)
2. After the Babylonian captivity, Nehemiah resumed this practice. The people would bring the Levites' tithes to the Levitical cities. Then the Levites would bring their (best) tithe of the tithes to the priests who would oversee the storehouse chambers. (Neh 10:37-39) [Notice v.39 "and we will not forsake the house of our God."]
3. Eventually, Eliashib the priest built his own chamber and stole the tithes brought into the Temple from the Levites. (Neh 13:3-14) [Notice v.11 "Why is the house of God forsaken?"]
4. The entire book of Malachi is in the context of point 3 above. It is completely addressed to the priests:
a. They despised God's name. (Mal 1:6)
b. They "robbed God" in offerings by offering polluted bread and blemished animals. (Mal 1:7-14)
c. They were cursed by God. (Mal 2:1-5, Mal 3:8-9)
d. They deceived the people by misteaching the Law. (Mal 2:6-10)
e. They taught whoredom, divorce, and marrying heathen. (Mal 2:11-17)
f. God said that He would bring judgment upon them and make things right again. (Mal 3:1-6)
g. They were gone away from God's ordinances. (Mal 3:7)
h. They "robbed God" in tithes by stealing them from the Levites by rerouting them into their own chamber. (Mal 3:8-9, Mal 2:1-5, Neh: 13:3-14) [Notice Mal 3:9 "that there may be meat in mine house"]
i. God tells them how their curse would turn back into a blessing if they returned to following the Law. (Mal 3:10-12)
j. They taught that there was no need to follow the Law and no consequences. (Mal 3:13-15)
k. God foretold how He would make things right again. (Mal 3:16-4:6)


Malachi 3:8-10 has absolutely nothing to do with Christians "robbing God" by not paying "tithes and offerings" of monetary income to a church.

Malachi 3:8-10 has absolutely everything to do with Israelite priests robbing God by stealing tithes from the public storehouse chambers in the Temple and offering blemished sacrifices on the altars.

 

[John Toppass]

Wow, there sure is a lot of talk about giving tithes, gifts, offerings or whatever you choose to call them. I find that usually anyone that talks against giving a tithe (tenth) of their gain usually does not give much at all and they feel the need to defend themselves by whatever they can think of at the time.

But, do not let your heart be troubled!!

The Word of God does say that God wants what we give to be given cheerfully. So, if you give a penny a day and you complain about that then DO NOT give that penny. If whatever you give is given cheerfully then you need not to defend it at all. I myself feel that the tenth is an automatic minimum for my family and we give that to the Church we are a member of in support of our Church and it's ministries (no strings attached), at times we give designated gifts or special love offerings to the Church or others, as the Lord leads us to give. These are not part of the the tithe (minimum) that is automatic.

Whatever you give, give it cheerfully. If the giving is not cheerful, maybe it is because your giving is not enough maybe not. That is between you and God. Do not give because of what someone has told you how much to give. Give because you want to give. I think that this is what God wants.

P.S. It is all God's anyway.

 

[Surfer Joe]

If they were supposed to tithe and the dispensation of grace began with the birth of Christ, since by him came grace and truth, when did the tithe get abolished?

When did the tithe stop? At the onset of grace or after its culmination? And where do we find that the tithe was ended?

I believe the age of grace came after the death and resurrection of Christ. Jesus lived during the time of the Law and He fullfilled the Law for us. The tithe I believe, was one of the ordinances that were nailed to the cross and thus ended at that time.

 

[HankD]

Law and grace cannot be confounded.​

Galatians 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.​

Acts 15
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
...
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:​

We are not under the law but "The just shall live by faith".​

Romans 1:17 ... The just shall live by faith.​

Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.​

Hebrews 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith...​

Under the law there were 603 mitzvouth and 10 commandments.
If you broke just one of them you were cursed:​

Deuteronomy 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.​

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.​

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.​

In the age of grace the law as a mode of life has passed away, under grace anything that is not of faith is sin:​

KJV Romans 14:23 ... for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.​

Again, under grace the NT is silent about the tithe, therefore it is not required but that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't give a tithe (or more).​

Give as much or as little as you want as you see fit, just do it by faith and not by obligation or necessity or grudgingly or to be seen of men.​

Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.​

Christian: you are free from the law, walk by faith in the Spirit and you won't go wrong.​

The Spirit of God has never led one of His children into sin.​

We do that ourselves when we wander away from His leading (and even put ourselves back under the law).

The purpose of the law in this age is to condemn sinners through the reproval of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.​

HankD​

 

[Harold Garvey]

I believe the age of grace came after the death and resurrection of Christ. Jesus lived during the time of the Law and He fullfilled the Law for us. The tithe I believe, was one of the ordinances that were nailed to the cross and thus ended at that time.

Not according to John 1, and Jesus preached nothing but truth and the need for grace for his entire ministry, all before he died.

To correct your theology, only the handwriting of the ordinances against us were blotted out by his blood shed on the Cross. Tithing is not against us, it's for us to prove the hand of God by placing it all in the hands of faith that He will regard it as obedience.

Not to question anyone's faith, but when some object to the tithe it seems they are not exercising their faith as God would have it.

 

[Alcott]

Not to question anyone's faith, but when some object to the tithe it seems they are not exercising their faith as God would have it.

LOL anytime somebody starts a sentence with a disclaimer like that, they mean the opposite... i.e., "I'm not one to carry tales, but..." or "Not to be nosy, but...?"

And tithing is not related to faith. Giving [something, tangible or intangible] is related to commitment, which is related to faith. You seem to be claiming one if faithful if one gives a minimum of 10% of income, and unfaithful if one stretches and give only 9.9%. So make it plain-- is that your contention?

 

[donnA]

I don't know about anyone else here, but I like going to church and having electricity, drinking water, water to flush, heat in the winter, a little air in the summer, especially we've been known to spend a lot of time in church, and not just us of course. Ministries cost money. Building up keep costs money.

 

[AresMan]

I don't know about anyone else here, but I like going to church and having electricity, drinking water, water to flush, heat in the winter, a little air in the summer, especially we've been known to spend a lot of time in church, and not just us of course. Ministries cost money. Building up keep costs money.

We all agree. But what in the world does any of this have to do with "tithing"? More specifically, what does any of this have to do with what the Bible actually says, and whether or not the Bible itself requires a so-called "tithe" of monetary income to a church?

I also would like someone who believes that Malachi 3:8-10 obligates us to tithe of our net/gross/gross+benefits monetary income to a church to address post #101.

 

[Crabtownboy]

If you are not willing to give 10% of your money, why would God or anyone believe you will give your life to him? Your time to him? Your talents to him?

To follow Christ is to give ALL to him and if that demands 20 or 30 or 40% of your money, then give it.

 

[AresMan]

To correct your theology, only the handwriting of the ordinances against us were blotted out by his blood shed on the Cross. Tithing is not against us, it's for us to prove the hand of God by placing it all in the hands of faith that He will regard it as obedience.

If we are required to tithe, then we are required to obey all the laws concerning the tithe, period. Unless you can prove otherwise. Either we are required to observe the seven-year cycle with the annual Feast of Tabernacles and bring our tithe of crops and livestock to Jerusalem, lay tithes of crops and livestock outside our gates every three years, give tithes to the Levites, release debts every seven years, and celebrate the Year of Jubilee, or we are not. Either the Scripture replaces this with another form of tithe requirement or it does not. Period.

Not to question anyone's faith, but when some object to the tithe it seems they are not exercising their faith as God would have it.

I am not "object[ing] to the tithe," you are objecting to the tithe because you will not accept with the Bible itself actually says concerning the tithe in all its actual contexts.

There is no tithe command/obligation/suggestion of monetary income to a church anywhere in Scripture. If I am required to do something, the burden of proof is upon you to prove it.

 

[AresMan]

If you are not willing to give 10% of your money, why would God or anyone believe you will give your life to him? Your time to him? Your talents to him?

To follow Christ is to give ALL to him and if that demands 20 or 30 or 40% of your money, then give it.

I agree. The issue is what does the Bible actually say? I want to obey the Bible and do what it says. I also do not want to tell someone that the Bible commands something when it, in fact, does not. I want to be accurate and I believe in Sola Scriptura.

 

[Alcott]

If you are not willing to give 10% of your money, why would God or anyone believe you will give your life to him? Your time to him? Your talents to him?

True, I suppose. And if you are not willing to give 30% of your money, why would God believe you will give your life to him. If you are not willing to give 80%......?

To follow Christ is to give ALL to him and if that demands 20 or 30 or 40% of your money, then give it.

Do you give ALL to him? 100%, absolutely no less? Then obviously you are using a computer and internet service that you have no means of paying for. So who are you freeloading off of?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

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True, I suppose. And if you are not willing to give 30% of your money, why would God believe you will give your life to him. If you are not willing to give 80%......?



Do you give ALL to him? 100%, absolutely no less? Then obviously you are using a computer and internet service that you have no means of paying for. So who are you freeloading off of?

Hear, hear. And if your not willing to borrow to give to God, why would God believe you will give your life to him. If your not willing to give 110%.......... Which is entirely possible because every coach I ever had asked me to give this amount.

 

[HankD]

True, I suppose. And if you are not willing to give 30% of your money, why would God believe you will give your life to him. If you are not willing to give 80%......?

This kind of thought is very popular in churches today, but you cannot give God what is already His.
We are His personal possession.
We cannot give Him what His Son has already purchased with His blood.

1 Corinthians 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.​

1 Corinthians 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.​

Ephesians 1

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

There are "proof texts" concerning New Covenant giving and it is not the mosaic "tithe" and the motivation does not come from a binding "law".

But again, that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't give whatever amount you want.

NT principles for giving:​

2 Corinthians 9
6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.​

If we are infilled with the Spirit then we are also infused with the love which only God has (agape). This is what should motive us to give, not fear or reprisal or even human generosity but the love which comes out of the nature of God.

NKJ 1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

Give as much or as little as you purpose in your heart, willingly and not out of necessity.

If you worry about how much you have left for bills, etc, then you have gone beyond the limits of your faith.​

True you may be one of those of whom Jesus said "oh ye of little faith" but at least you have complied with the NT principle of giving.​

There is no NT penalty (excommunication, flogging, etc) for giving sparingly.​

But there is a reward principle for giving sparingly or bountifully:​

2 Corinthians 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.​

In addition, the joy flowing out of giving for the furtherance of the Gospel and/or to those in need should be part of our nature as children of God.​

2 Peter 1
4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,
6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,
7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

HankD​

 

[Harold Garvey]

Points 2 and 3 are correct.

I will also add that the entirety of the book of Malachi is addressed to the priests. All the curses in Malachi are pronounced on the priests. The priests were robbing the people and their Levite brethren by stealing the tithes from the designated Temple storehouse chambers and rerouting them to their own chambers.

1. King Hezekiah originally built the storehouse chambers in the Temple to manage third-year tithes. (2 Chr 31)
2. After the Babylonian captivity, Nehemiah resumed this practice. The people would bring the Levites' tithes to the Levitical cities. Then the Levites would bring their (best) tithe of the tithes to the priests who would oversee the storehouse chambers. (Neh 10:37-39) [Notice v.39 "and we will not forsake the house of our God."]
3. Eventually, Eliashib the priest built his own chamber and stole the tithes brought into the Temple from the Levites. (Neh 13:3-14) [Notice v.11 "Why is the house of God forsaken?"]
4. The entire book of Malachi is in the context of point 3 above. It is completely addressed to the priests:
a. They despised God's name. (Mal 1:6)
b. They "robbed God" in offerings by offering polluted bread and blemished animals. (Mal 1:7-14)
c. They were cursed by God. (Mal 2:1-5, Mal 3:8-9)
d. They deceived the people by misteaching the Law. (Mal 2:6-10)
e. They taught whoredom, divorce, and marrying heathen. (Mal 2:11-17)
f. God said that He would bring judgment upon them and make things right again. (Mal 3:1-6)
g. They were gone away from God's ordinances. (Mal 3:7)
h. They "robbed God" in tithes by stealing them from the Levites by rerouting them into their own chamber. (Mal 3:8-9, Mal 2:1-5, Neh: 13:3-14) [Notice Mal 3:9 "that there may be meat in mine house"]
i. God tells them how their curse would turn back into a blessing if they returned to following the Law. (Mal 3:10-12)
j. They taught that there was no need to follow the Law and no consequences. (Mal 3:13-15)
k. God foretold how He would make things right again. (Mal 3:16-4:6)


Malachi 3:8-10 has absolutely nothing to do with Christians "robbing God" by not paying "tithes and offerings" of monetary income to a church.

Malachi 3:8-10 has absolutely everything to do with Israelite priests robbing God by stealing tithes from the public storehouse chambers in the Temple and offering blemished sacrifices on the altars.

But then we are left wanting to know why God ONLY blesses the tithes given to the Levitcal preisthood?:thumbs:

Are you saying that under waht you refer to as only O.T. tithing that no one but the preists could have the windows of heaven opened unto them????

That is legalism in its core.:thumbs:

 

[Harold Garvey]

Hank has a good grip on the handle of giving, it would do others good if they grabbed ahold too.

 

[AresMan]

But then we are left wanting to know why God ONLY blesses the tithes given to the Levitcal preisthood?:thumbs:

God blesses cheerful giving to the ministry.

2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

You are missing the context of the passage itself. The blessings and curses in Malachi are a specific reference to those delineated in the Law.

The tithe laws are given in the following passages:
Lev 27:30-33
Num 18
Deu 12
Deu 14:22-29
Deu 26:12-19

God spelled out the blessings and curses for not keeping the Law in Deu 28. The whole nation was cursed because everyone was out of the way; however, Malachi is entirely addressed to the priests wherein they misled the people in the Law and stole the tithes of crops and livestock from the Temple storehouse chambers from their Levite brethren.

Are you saying that under waht you refer to as only O.T. tithing that no one but the preists could have the windows of heaven opened unto them????

No, while Malachi specifically addressed the priests, the whole land was under a curse of famine because the priests led them to do contrary to the Law.

Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
Deu 28:23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.
Deu 28:24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
Deu 28:33 The fruit of thy land, and all thy labors, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed always:
Deu 28:38 Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in; for the locust shall consume it.
Deu 28:39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.
Deu 28:40 Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shalt not anoint thyself with the oil; for thine olive shall cast his fruit.
Deu 28:42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume.

These were some of the curses for not following the Law.

The "windows of heaven" promised was specifically rain (Gen 7:11) to counter the famine (Mal 3:11-12).

That is legalism in its core.:thumbs:

Legalism would be teaching that one is required to do something that God's Word does not specifically say. Nowhere does the Bible require Christians to give a "tithe" of monetary income to a church. If you can prove that the Bible teaches this, then great, I will obey. The Bible does teach concerning NT Christian ministry that God loves a cheerful giver, that what one sows one will reap, that everything we have belongs to God, and that we should not leave our brethren in need.

 

[AresMan]

Hank has a good grip on the handle of giving, it would do others good if they grabbed ahold too.

I agree. Do you have any reason to assume that anyone else here does not?

 

[Harold Garvey]

God blesses cheerful giving to the ministry.
You are missing the context of the passage itself. The blessings and curses in Malachi are a specific reference to those delineated in the Law.

The tithe laws are given in the following passages:
Lev 27:30-33
Num 18
Deu 12
Deu 14:22-29
Deu 26:12-19

God spelled out the blessings and curses for not keeping the Law in Deu 28. The whole nation was cursed because everyone was out of the way; however, Malachi is entirely addressed to the priests wherein they misled the people in the Law and stole the tithes of crops and livestock from the Temple storehouse chambers from their Levite brethren.

No, while Malachi specifically addressed the priests, the whole land was under a curse of famine because the priests led them to do contrary to the Law.

Oh, ok, so this tyrant you're describing makes people suffer for other's wrong doing?

These were some of the curses for not following the Law.

The "windows of heaven" promised was specifically rain (Gen 7:11) to counter the famine (Mal 3:11-12).

Legalism would be teaching that one is required to do something that God's Word does not specifically say. Nowhere does the Bible require Christians to give a "tithe" of monetary income to a church. If you can prove that the Bible teaches this, then great, I will obey. The Bible does teach concerning NT Christian ministry that God loves a cheerful giver, that what one sows one will reap, that everything we have belongs to God, and that we should not leave our brethren in need.

OK, so you object to supporting your local church with money, how is it your church survives and pays the bills?

 

[Harold Garvey]

Legalism would be teaching that one is required to do something that God's Word does not specifically say. Nowhere does the Bible require Christians to give a "tithe" of monetary income to a church. If you can prove that the Bible teaches this, then great, I will obey. The Bible does teach concerning NT Christian ministry that God loves a cheerful giver, that what one sows one will reap, that everything we have belongs to God, and that we should not leave our brethren in need.

I'm addrssing this seperately because that may well be the way you define legalism. I define it as a way invented by men to earn merit with God for ones own benefit.

We live under grace. Grace allows a man to obey the law and even though he's broken the law it gives him no license to sin.

Knowing to good and doing it not is sin to that man.

The economy of God has, and always will operate on the tenth of the increase of His followers. I speak as the accounts payable clerk, it's a perfect method.

Objection to the tithe is against what is mathematically perfect. God is perfect. Objection then goes against what God has given to make sure his work goes forward financially.

It worked in the Old Testament and would work much better if all God's people TITHED!