Christians Evangelizing Catholics

[Bro. James]

Salvation is of the Lord--

So is justification and sanctification.

Ephesians 2:1-10, "You were dead because of your sins and offenses, as you gave allegiance to the present age and to the prince of the air, that spirit who is even now at work among the rebellious. All of us were once of their company; we lived at the level of the flesh following every whim and fancy, and so by nature deserved God's wrath like the rest. But God is rich in mercy; because of his great love for us he brought us to life with Christ when we were dead in sin. By this favor you were saved. Both with and in Christ Jesus he raised us up and gave us a place in the heavens, that in the ages to come he might display the great wealth of his favor, manifested by his kindness to us in Christ jesus. I repeat, it is owing to his favor that salvation is yours through faith. This is not your own doing, it is God's gift; neither is it a reward for anything you have accomplished, so let no one pride himself on it. We are truly his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to lead the life of good deeds which God prepared for us in advance."

Verbatim: The New American Bible, St. Joseph Ed. 1970.

The footnotes to the above:...Both Jew and Gentile have experienced, through Christ, God's generosity, his free gift of salvation which already marks them for a heavenly destiny. In Christ, God reveals the wealth of his kindness saving men through faith and not by any works of their own. Christians are a newly created people; in Christ, fashioned by God for a new life of goodness.

Comment: If one is saved, one ought to know who, what, when, where and how salvation was obtained.

Compare the plain teachings above to the latest Catechism.

"Let God be found True(His Word), and every man a liar."

Sola Scriptura

Selah,

Bro. James

[ December 16, 2004, 06:39 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]

 

[aefting]

* that justification excludes all mortal sin from the soul, so that the just man is no way liable to the sentence of death at God's judgment-seat.

Stephen,

Do you believe that you are at this point, yet, in the process?

And where did you quote that summary from?

Andy

 

[grace56]

Littledrummerboy, in last weeks study in Matthew 7 our Bible Study leader(a former protastant minister) explained Matthew 7:6, basically he told us Jesus was telling us not to give out our pearls (holy stuff, sacraments, etc.) before swine (unbelievers) because they will not understand, and no matter how patient and kind you are they will just just trample on them and turn and tear you into pieces, as some are doing to you here. Their eyes are covered and they do not see!

DHK, you are mistaken the Baptist church did not exsist before the 1600's!

grace56

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Why change the subject, and talk about how angry I sound ? That's a cheap dodge. I understand enough about the RCC to completely reject her. She's not the church Christ founded at all, and she is full of error.

You cannot say that the RCC is protected from error, and then say that some might be errant. It's double speak. Either yer free from error, or you ain't. Which is it ? How does error creep into perfect church ?

 

[Bro. James]

The Impasse--

is still there: no common standard, no dialogue.

The real question is: shall we allow the traditions of men to be equal to the revelation of God.

"Sola scriptura" is not a special revelation given to Martin Luther. Such was the teaching of the First Church.

There really are churches which trace their faith and practice to Original started by Jesus.
They have never been Romanized or Reformed.

Point of order: there is no such entity as "The Baptist Church. There have been Baptistic Churches in every generation--their history is written in blood.

This will be preached until they kill us or the Lord takes us home. Satan has not killed us all--there is always a remnant.

The war between God and Satan still rages. Whose side are we on? Are we sure?
Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Matt Black]

Please adduce evidence for this assertion. If this is merely what you believe, your statement of faith, then fine, but please say so; don't go round stating it as if it were factual.

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Littledrummerboy]

Craig,

What a powerful story! Praise God for his work in our lives and the lives of his creation.

DHK,

Believe what you want about me and my soul. I am thankful it is not up for you to decide who goes or how one gets to heaven. I am not going to justify my salvation story to you. I do, however, find a contradiction within your convidtions. I even mention your family, and am called ignorant and insulting, but it is completely ok for you to bring forth problems with my own salvation? As for how one gets saved, I believe there are several different way in which Christ manifests his saving grace throughout our lives. I believe, because of my own experiences and readings I have read, that salvation is a process the whole "Am Saving, am being saved, will be saved" menatality. Many Protestants do not hold to this view,and that if fine with me. So long as I see the fruits of the Lord in their lives, I do not care how they attained them. Yes, God blessed me with an abundently academic mind and I see the world through that lens, but it has not kept me from the saving frace of our Lord. I will not be baited into such a personal debate for two reasons:1 we would only get frusterated with each other due the personal nature of the subject, 2 I do not know you and because this is personal, I do not feel obligated to give up that part of myself to a complete stranger whom I only know through words on a screen. I do agree with the idea of salvation that the article I provided gives, so if you have read it, I think it gives you a pretty good understanding of how I see the subject, though I do not hold that it is the ONLY way to attain salvation...Christ is above our intellect.

Pax Christi,

Stephen

 

[grace56]

That is what makes the Roman Catholic Church great! She has made many mistakes through out these 2000 years because she is composed of humans, and we all make mistakes. There have been great leaders and some very bad ones. What I find really interesting is that she is still there, not because of mere human beings but because the Holy Spirit is what guides her. Lets face it Jesus himself said the gates of hell will not prevail against his church.

peace in Christ,
grace56

 

[Littledrummerboy]

Aefting,

Yes and no. I do believe that through the saving grace of the Lord, I am protected from mortal sin in that I will not eternally die, by his grace I have been forgiven of them. I do, however, still commit mortal sin as we all do. I am not liable of death at Christi's judgement seat, but yet I do still sin. I think this is a paradox most Christians struggle with correct? That is why the church believes in salvation as a process...because I am saved through Christ's work, am still being saved from sinning, and will ultimately be saved when I sing with the choirs of angels in heaven. I hope I helped to clarify a bit.

Curt,

I can say that because it is logical to say so. When you take a whole, and ascribe attributes of the whole's constituent parts onto the whole, you are commiting the logical fallicy of division, and because God created his world (and us) logically, he cannot act in an illogical way. Therefore, even if parts of the church are with error (in fact, every parishoner is with error, being still human, and I consider them to be a very large part of the church) it is logical invalid by argument to say the church as a whole must then take on the attributes of the constituent parts. As for the anger, I was not changing the subject as much as just remarking that it is unnecessary, perhaps I misjudged your tone altogether and if I did, I am sorry.

Pax Christi,

Stephen

 

[Littledrummerboy]

James,

I should just post it up front. I have found your posts to be intellectually dishonest due to the lack of any credible evidence to substantiate your claims, even after asking repetedly for them, so I am just going to start ignoring them. Should you change your methods, I will gladly begin reading them again, but it is not fair to anyone here that you just post your thoughts and refuse to give any coherent argument to suppor them. Please do not take this as a personal insult, but take it as constructive criticism. Until then...

Pax Christi,

Stephen

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Double speak. A perfect church cannot err. A perfect church leader could not sin. A church protected from error, wouldn't make any error.

 

[Littledrummerboy]

Curt,

Do whatever you must so that your presuppositions can be validated. Just know, logically you are acting in error here. If you are comfortable with that, then fine, but once you start throwing out the rules of logic, you've found yourself in quite a heap of trouble.

Pax Christi,

STephen

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Oh please. I don't let catholics intimidate me with that garbage. Like I said, telling folks your church is protected from ereror is how you end up with sex scandals, and the idolatry happening in Mexico, and everywhere else the RCC builds a church.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Bro. James:
The real question is: shall we allow the traditions of men to be equal to the revelation of God.

Traditions of men should not be allowed to be equal to the revelation of God. The real question, however, is whether Apostolic Tradition is equal to the revelation of God, and the answer is "Yes!". (2 Thess 2:15; 1 Cor 11:2--and the Greek word is paradosis which means "Tradition") This Tradition was given to the Church by Christ through the Apostles and passed on and kept by their successors.

"Sola scriptura" is not a special revelation given to Martin Luther. Such was the teaching of the First Church.

Actually, sola scriptura was not the teaching of the First Church, nor for the Church at all until the "Reformation". The early Church held to the Traditions rather orally or by letter (2 Thess 2:15). Nor does Scripture say anywhere that all the Apostolic Teaching was to be committed to Scripture (and scripture only) after they died.

There really are churches which trace their faith and practice to Original started by Jesus.
They have never been Romanized or Reformed.

Yes, and they are called "Orthodox".

Point of order: there is no such entity as "The Baptist Church. There have been Baptistic Churches in every generation--their history is written in blood.

This is gross historical revisionism.

 

[grace56]

Bro Curtis, let God handle the guilty with sex scandals, his wrath will be just!!!!!


Since people make up the body of Christ we can and we do err, that's why we all need forgiveness!

peace to you the Christmas!

grace56

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Littledrummerboy:

DHK,

Believe what you want about me and my soul. I am thankful it is not up for you to decide who goes or how one gets to heaven. I am not going to justify my salvation story to you.
As for how one gets saved, I believe there are several different way in which Christ manifests his saving grace throughout our lives. I believe, because of my own experiences and readings I have read, that salvation is a process the whole "Am Saving, am being saved, will be saved" menatality. Many Protestants do not hold to this view,and that if fine with me. So long as I see the fruits of the Lord in their lives, I do not care how they attained them. Yes, God blessed me with an abundently academic mind and I see the world through that lens, but it has not kept me from the saving frace of our Lord. I will not be baited into such a personal debate for two reasons:1 we would only get frusterated with each other due the personal nature of the subject, 2 I do not know you and because this is personal, I do not feel obligated to give up that part of myself to a complete stranger whom I only know through words on a screen. I do agree with the idea of salvation that the article I provided gives, so if you have read it, I think it gives you a pretty good understanding of how I see the subject, though I do not hold that it is the ONLY way to attain salvation...Christ is above our intellect.

Pax Christi,

Stephen

So as was stated before, we are at an impasse for a couple of reasons. One is that we can't come to a consensus on defintion of terms. When you use the terms saved, and born again, you really don't know the Bible meaning of the terms. In fact you don't know what it means to be saved. You don't know what it means to be saved. [snipped].

[snipped]A believer in Christ would with absoulute joy describe how you were born again, and be willing to share that experience to one and all. To have the opportunity over the web and testify of the glorious grace of God that brings one into his fold, making him one of his own children, is one of the greatest opportunities a believer could ever have, and should jump at. Your reluctance to do so only shows me that you are not born again, and you do not know what it means to be born again. [snipped]

Catholics believe that to be born again is to baptized. That is heresy. Baptism gets you wet. It doesn't get you saved. That is why I was asking for your testimony of salvation. [snipped] That point is quite evident, isn't it?

DHK

[Questioning doctrine/belief is fine. Telling someone they are not saved is not acceptable. That is a personal matter between them and God. - Dr. Bob, Administrator]

[ December 16, 2004, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

 

[Littledrummerboy]

DHK,

I reverently remember my baptism. Also, believe what you want, it does nothing to me or to my salvation...but I would advise that you do not expound too much energy concerning my salvation, because I am fine with where I am, and you would only be wasting your own time. Because I believe salvation is a process, I regularly talk with great joy about it because I regularly talk about my faith with great joy, and they are one and the same...I do know I am born again, so your point is moot.

Pax Christi,

Stephen

 

[Littledrummerboy]

Curt,

I am not attempting to intimidate you. I am just trying to help you out. The rules of logic are just as substantial as that of the rules of mathematics, and I hope you are not willing to let go of them as well.

Pax Christi,

Stephen

 

[Bro. James]

Intellectual dishonesty--

This is not about titillation of the intellect.

This is a spiritual warfare for the souls of men. It has been going on ever since Adam fell. The war is between God and Satan. Technically the victory was established when Jesus died on the tree. Satan does not give up easily--he is definitely the god of this world.

The evidence for what I write is in the Holy Writ, which I have referenced copiously and the blood of the saints who have died for "the Faith once for all delivered to the saints"--read "History of the Inquisitiions" in any Catholic Library. This should be sufficient evidence to convince most reasonable minds--but probably not the intellectuals. As already stated, the scripture is spriitually discerned--one must be "born again" to understand. Only then will the Holy Spirit lead unto all truth.
Re: Nicodemus, Book of John, Ch. 3.


Selah,

Bro. James

 

[DHK]

Salvation is not a process, Stephen; it is an event. It is a time in your life when you come to God as a sinner, admit to him that you are in need of a Saviour, and trust Him on the basis of His shed blood as your Lord and Saviour, by faith and faith alone. Works have nothing to do with this. It is by grace through faith that one is saved. It is not through sacraments, or by any work of any kind. It is one event in the lifetime of a believer. It is what makes one a believer.
The bible teaches that we are born into the family of the devil.
Thus one needs to be born again--born into God's family. If you haven't, you (that is you as in anybody) will remain in the devil's family and end up spending an eternity in Hell.

Salvation is like marriage. I can remember the date of my wedding: the time, the place, who was there, the pianist, almost all the details surrounding it.

I can also remeber that very important day that I was married to Christ, or became part of his bride. (The picture is given in Eph.5). I remeber the day, the year and month. I even remember the time. I remember the name of the individual who shared the gospel message with me, what he asked me, and what he said afterward. I remeber what I prayed. I remember what I did afterward. It was the most important event in my life.

If you were to ask me: "Are you married?" And I were to answer: "Let me think about it, I've been married all my life. There's not a day that goes by when I haven't been married. I've been married since birth. Or, perhaps: I don't know if I'm married or not; I'm really not sure. "Marriage is a process." I won't really be totally married until I reach heaven.

What would you think if I gave you those kinds of answers? Yet Christ likens Marriage to salvation. It is an event, not a process.
DHK