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Christians Evangelizing Catholics
- Thread starter John3v36
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Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Amen!
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
Perhaps your salvation was like your marriage, but I don't know of a whole lot of people who were married when they were four years old. I personally knew a very precious four-year-old boy who loved Jesus more than everything else put together because he was raised in a very Christian family and believed in Jesus at an earlier date than he is able to remember.
As for older converts to Christianity, we in the Baptist churches tend to press people to make a decision for Christ as a one time decision whereas in many other churches, including the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran Churches, no “alter calls” are given and the individuals in the congregation often, but certainly not always, come to a gradual awareness of who Christ is and what He did for them on the cross and their life is therefore transformed one day at a time over a period of months or years rather than at a moment in time. Both salvation experiences are just as real as the other, and we find very fruitful men and women of God who came to know their Savior both ways, or a combination of the two. The important thing is that we are truly born again, and if we are, our lives will truly show it.
Perhaps your salvation was like your marriage, but I don't know of a whole lot of people who were married when they were four years old. I personally knew a very precious four-year-old boy who loved Jesus more than everything else put together because he was raised in a very Christian family and believed in Jesus at an earlier date than he is able to remember.
As for older converts to Christianity, we in the Baptist churches tend to press people to make a decision for Christ as a one time decision whereas in many other churches, including the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran Churches, no “alter calls” are given and the individuals in the congregation often, but certainly not always, come to a gradual awareness of who Christ is and what He did for them on the cross and their life is therefore transformed one day at a time over a period of months or years rather than at a moment in time. Both salvation experiences are just as real as the other, and we find very fruitful men and women of God who came to know their Savior both ways, or a combination of the two. The important thing is that we are truly born again, and if we are, our lives will truly show it.
Craig you are drifting or have already got there (one or the other) into heresy. There are not two ways of salvation. There is only one.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
--There is one way, Craig, and only way--through Christ. It is not through the Catholic Church, or any other way. It is through Christ.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--You are saved:
By Grace,
Through Faith,
AND not of works.
--That is the only way, Craig. Salvation is not a process. There is only one way to Heaven--through Christ. He is the Way. Accept Him--once and for all--by grace, through faith, and not of works. Just one time Craig, one time. The Bible does NOT say: You must be born again and again and again. Only once Craig; just once. It is one event.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
It does not say: "whosoever shall keep on calling and calling and calling and calling shall be saved." It is a one time event Craig. One time. If you call upon the Lord but one time, he will save you. That is his promise.
Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
--Christ gave himself for the church. Our salvation is compared to one's marriage. Read and study this chapter. Perhaps the four you old you described didn't comprehend the message of salvation if he didn't know who Christ was. He cannot call upon Christ to save if he doesn't know the Christ he is calling on.
I do not subscribe to easy believism. Don't lump everyone in the same boat.
DHK
Traditions of men should not be allowed to be equal to the revelation of God. The real question, however, is whether Apostolic Tradition is equal to the revelation of God, and the answer is "Yes!". (2 Thess 2:15; 1 Cor 11:2--and the Greek word is paradosis which means "Tradition") This Tradition was given to the Church by Christ through the Apostles and passed on and kept by their successors.
</font>[/QUOTE]It is sad that chruch after church falls back on traditions and not the BIBLE!!!
Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
I know for a fact that you are wrong. There is a church that was not far from where I once lived that did preach the gospel and did give invitations. In fact some of their priests went to SWBTS to study. My mom is still in the RCC and 73. She recently took a class on how to do evangelism. She is definitely a Christian.
Now I would agree with you about years ago but that is not the case veverywhere now.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
I did not write nor suggest that salvation is through the Roman Catholic Church or through any other church. And of course salvation is only through Jesus and His atonement for our sins on the cross. No one in this thread has so much as suggested otherwise. If you believe that they have, you have misunderstood their post as you have misunderstood mine.
No one in this thread is denying the veracity of Eph. 8:8-9. These two verses are totally irrelevant to the question as to whether or not one’s personal perception of one’s personal salvation has to be punctiliar in order for the salvation to be efficacious.
No one in this thread is denying the veracity of Rom. 10:13 and no one is suggesting that there is any need whatsoever to call upon the Lord more than once for salvation.
Paul did NOT teach in this passage from the Holy Scriptures that anyone’s perception of their personal soteriological experience should necessary be anything like their perception of their wedding day.
The question is not whether he "loved Jesus very much." The question is whether he was saved or not, an entirely different question. Did he understand the way of salvation, who Christ is, what Christ did, why he needs to be saved, how Christ saves, etc. If he doesn't have an elementary understanding of salvation and of Christ he cannot be saved. That is why we use the term "age of reason."
Salvation is a one time event. Whether a four year old learns about Christ over a period of time or an eighty year old learns about Christ over a period time, that does not make any difference. One needs to learn about Christ and what he did for him; believe on Him and be saved. That is a one time act, not a process. I can teach that to a person in five minutes if they are open to believe. If they are resisting the message, and resisting the Holy Spirit, then it will take much longer for them to respond, and in fact, they may never accept Christ as their Saviour. It is a matter of the will. Will you trust Him or not. Salvation is simple, not complicated. It is a one time event that takes place in the heart. Then God begins a process of sanctification after that. Up to that point in time the spirit is dead. It needs to be made alive. It is regenerated or made alive at the point of salvation when a person trusts Christ as Saviour. At that point and time one is born into the family of God. There is no gradual birth here. The concept is ridiculous. Salvation is not progressive. You are suggesting two ways of salvation. There is only one.
Wrong, there is only one way of salvation!!
There is only one way of salvation. It is an event not a process. Your thinking has become "Catholicized." When are you going to be confirmed
You cannot believe in Catholic doctrine and be saved at the same time. Both Catholic doctrine and the Bible are diametrically opposed to each other. How is one born again?
I asked drummerboy that, and he couldn't give a biblical answer? Can you? Is your answer from the Bible or is it from the Catholic Catechism. Both are contradictory. You have to believe one or the other. You can't believe both. If you are born again according to the Catholic Church, then you aren't born again.
DHK
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
I see that this thread has deteriorated to be no more than the posting of insulting gibberish, and I shall now take leave of it.
There is nothing here meant to be insulting.
John 3:5 "You must be born of water and of the Spirit,"
The Catholics say that accordinly, You must be born again means you must be baptized.
Do you believe in the Catholic interpretation of John 3:5, and in the Catholic interpretation of what is to be "born again?" Or baptismal regeneration?
DHK
John 3:5 "You must be born of water and of the Spirit,"
The Catholics say that accordinly, You must be born again means you must be baptized.
Do you believe in the Catholic interpretation of John 3:5, and in the Catholic interpretation of what is to be "born again?" Or baptismal regeneration?
DHK
DHK, it is clear from the many testimonies I have heard that some meet Christ on the Road to Damsacus ('crisis' conversion experience) and some on the Road to Emmaus ('process' conversion experience); i understand that Billy Graham is an example of the former, his wife of the latter.
Also, if you are suggesting that one must fully 'understand' to be saved, without wishing to flog the dead horse of Calvinism vs Arminianism this does tend to turn salvation into too much of a work of man. Also, what does this say about the salvation of infants who die, those with learning difficulties or mental handicaps? Or is it only the intelligently sentient that can get into the Kingdom?
Yours in Christ
Matt
Also, if you are suggesting that one must fully 'understand' to be saved, without wishing to flog the dead horse of Calvinism vs Arminianism this does tend to turn salvation into too much of a work of man. Also, what does this say about the salvation of infants who die, those with learning difficulties or mental handicaps? Or is it only the intelligently sentient that can get into the Kingdom?
Yours in Christ
Matt
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
And yet it's the traditions (Gr. paradosis) that Paul instructs the Thessalonians to hold fast to in 2 Thess 2:15. It's the traditions (Gr. paradosis) that Paul commands the Corinthians to keep in 1 Corinthians 11:2.
The difference is that the Jews were keeping their own tradition and not God's. The tradition Paul instructed the Churches to keep was the Apostolic Tradition which is from God.
I am not about to get into people that have mental handicaps and infants that die in infancy. Those people are in God's hands, and I will leave it there. That is a red herring, that is needless to bring into this conversation.
I mentioned previously the term "age of reason," defining that as a reasonable age to understand the plan of salvation, not an age to understand the entire doctrine of soteriology. I never claimed that. Let's not exagerrate. I also said that the plan of salvation is very simple. It is not complicate, but it is a message of grace to be accepted by faith and faith alone--not by works.
The Catholic Church teaches salvation by works, not salvation by faith in the sacrificial atoning blood of Christ. Theirs is a relgion of works. You cannot be saved by works. That in itself makes it a false religion. When false doctrines arise and center around salvation, it becomes detrimental to one's faith, and pushes that religion outside the realm of Biblical Christianity into the category of either a false relgion or a cult--take your choice. Doctrines that deal with the person and nature of Christ, and his work on the cross are crucial to Christianity. They are not to trivialized or trifled with.
You mentioned some other doctrines which there is some difference in among Baptists. KJVOism is one. It really doesn't matter what Bible you use. That doesn't affect your salvation. It is a matter of soul liberty. It is a contentious issue that can divide the brethren, but it shouldn't. It should be a matter of personal choice, and a matter of soul liberty. As far as eternity is concerned it is not going to make one iota of difference.
On the cotrary belief that baptism saves (as the Catholics do) will send as person to Hell, and makes all the difference in the world.
There is no such thing as salvation being a process. Even Billy Graham can point to a time when he knelt down and accepted Christ as his Saviour. One is not gradually saved. One is not gradually married. One is not gradually born (into God's family). One is not gradually adopted (into God's family). One is not gradually made alive (regenerated). One is not gradually born, neither born again and again.
If you make this into a process you break every symbolic picture of salvation in the Bible.
DHK
What you have posted goes against the grain of the experiences of many Christians I know. Unlike me, they cannot give a direct date of their conversion. But they do know that once they were not saved and now they are; some of them are the most effective, anointed Christians I know, with a passion for Christ, His Kingdom and the lost. Are you seriously suggesting these individuals are damned?
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
Not necessarily. My wife was saved at an early age. She can't remember the day, or month, or perhaps even the year. She was about 7 years old. But she does know what happened. She does remember hearing the plan of salvation from her mother. She does remember trusting Christ as her Saviour. The important fact is that it was a one time event in her life, not a life long process. We have four children. They each have a birth date. When I was born again I had a spiritual birth date. I can give you that date. My wife can't give the date, but she can remember what happened on that date.
DHK