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Christians, Music, and the Occult: What Should We Believe and Practice?

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Reynolds

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It certainly is a common claim. But the proof is in actually doing it. Otherwise it is just wishful thinking, at best.


“Liberalism” is not the issue. The issue is social justice and that Amos, speaking for God, tells us that God is not interested in our worship or religious ceremonies unless we are engaged in social justice. That seems to be explicit in the passage.


It can be, but it is often used to downplay passages that we don’t like in order to create a religious system that conforms to our own fallen preferences.

Have you ever wondered why God didn’t simply give us a systematic theology instead of the Bible? That clearly indicates that systematic theologies are not sufficient for faith and practice.

Systematic theologies are built around the opinions of human beings as to what the key elements of belief should be. If someone has a prejudice against social justice (for instance, equating it with “liberalism” which is equated with everything they hate), they are unlikely to build a theology that seriously explores what the Bible has to say about social justice. They can become idols for us to exchange the truth of God for something created in our own image.

I appreciate systematic theologies, but I am not fool enough to believe they are essential to understanding the scriptures or to be faithful to Jesus. In fact, a poorly prepared systematic theology can be a stumbling block to biblical faith.


You can’t understand the plain language of Amos? Even children can understand it.

Your unwillingness to even engage with me regarding Amos 5 tells me you are afraid or unwilling to confront the truth of God’s word.

You are simply screaming “liberal” and running away like a child.
Amos is not speaking about the nonsense being called "social justice" today. He is speaking of an entirely different system. The churches are to be charitable, but Paul directs us in this charity. Paul is explicit that only the truly deserving are to be helped. I can guarantee you Paul would not support "BLM".
I have no idea what you see in Amos 5. Nothing supporting the U.S. concept of "social justice".
 
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Baptist Believer

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Amos is not speaking about the nonsense being called "social justice" today.
Social justice is a term that has been around much longer than right-wing media. You’ve made an assumption that I’m talking about a right-wing caricature of social justice, not biblical social justice.

He is speaking of an entirely different system.
It’s a completely different culture, but the issues are the same. He’s talking about oppression of the poor, letting greed overtake equity and compassion, and distortion of justice so that the wealthy and elites have one system of justice, and the poor have another. There’s more to unpack in the passage, but those are some of the basics.

The churches are to be charitable, but Paul directs us in this charity. Paul is explicit that only the truly deserving are to be helped.
Actually Jesus and the leaders of the first century church said something quite different. Folks love to rip the “if you don’t work you don’t eat” phrase out of Paul’s writings and use that to undermine the full biblical witness. John points out that those who have material possessions and does not help their brother does not have the love of Christ in them (1 John 3:17). James defines pure and undefined religion as one that cares for widows and orphans (biblical shorthand for the poor and powerless) in James 1:27. He also blasts those who do not care for those who do not have the basic possessions of life — food shelter, and clothing — as having a dead faith (James 2:14-17).

I can guarantee you Paul would not support "BLM".
You are the only one talking about BLM. That group never occurred to me in considering this passage. You seem to be debating a Fox News parody of what you assume I am.

I have no idea what you see in Amos 5.
That’s clear. You have been clueless the whole time, yet you accuse. I hope that’s a lesson to you.

Nothing supporting the U.S. concept of "social justice".
I never mentioned the United States or the right-wing media misconception of social justice. That’s on you.
 

Scripture More Accurately

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Yet at the same time, God DOES condemn sexual-oriented sin. How can this be, knowing what I previously pointed out? The condemnation of sexual sin (and every other sin) is aimed at those who are in positions of power, who use their power to oppress and abuse others. This involves rape, selfish sexual use of women (as Onan did in Genesis 38:9-10), sexual violence such as gang rape (Genesis 19:3), the sexual abuse of slaves and pederasty (which was common in the Greco-Roman world).

No, "the condemnation of sexual sin" is not just "aimed at those who are in positions of power, who use their power to oppress and abuse others."

Paul condemned sexual sin by someone who was engaging in it while claiming to be a believer (1 Cor. 5:1), but he does not mention anything about the one who was committing that sin as being in a position of power.

Paul then authoritatively declares that all those who are unrepentantly immoral will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9-10). Trying to claim that this teaching only applies to those who were or are in positions of power and are immoral is false and reads into Paul's teaching what is not there.

Jude reveals that God fiercely judged those who were sexually immoral in Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude 7). There is no legitimate way to say that God only judged those who were in positions of power in those cities and did so.
 

Baptist Believer

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No, "the condemnation of sexual sin" is not just "aimed at those who are in positions of power, who use their power to oppress and abuse others.”
You are ripping that out of context. Notice that I am referring to those who are powerless (slaves). Or perhaps you do understand and you would condemn the person who was raped as well as the rapist?

Paul condemned sexual sin by someone who was engaging in it while claiming to be a believer (1 Cor. 5:1), but he does not mention anything about the one who was committing that sin as being in a position of power.
Paul has enough faith in the Corinthian congregation to know they were not ignorant of the world in which they lived. Remember, 1 & 2 Corinthians was written for us, but not to us. We are responsible for understanding the context. You are condemned to misinterpret scripture if you refuse to study ALL of it in context, not just your favorite passages.

Paul then authoritatively declares that all those who are unrepentantly immoral will not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9-10).
True. And the Kingdom of God is already present and will overwhelm every other kingdom.

Trying to claim that this teaching only applies to those who were or are in positions of power and are immoral is false and reads into Paul's teaching what is not there.
It’s a good thing that I didn’t do that.

Fortunately, I am not responsible for your mischaracterization.

Jude reveals that God fiercely judged those who were sexually immoral in Sodom and Gomorrah (Jude 7). There is no legitimate way to say that God only judged those who were in positions of power in those cities and did so.
True. But their desire to rape was only a symptom of their deeper issues (Ezekiel 16:49-50) with social justice. The men of the city wanted to oppress/dominate the visiting angels through rape (like prison rape). It was sexual violence that had nothing to do with sexual desire. Otherwise Lot would not have offered his daughters.
 

Scripture More Accurately

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Paul has enough faith in the Corinthian congregation to know they were not ignorant of the world in which they lived. Remember, 1 & 2 Corinthians was written for us, but not to us. We are responsible for understanding the context. You are condemned to misinterpret scripture if you refuse to study ALL of it in context, not just your favorite passages.

If what you are saying with these comments is that someone in our day who would commit the same sin (as this person did in Corinth in Paul's day) is not to be condemned for his sexual immorality, you are promoting false teaching.
 
It does not matter whether this is "a burning issue" where I am from. The point of the thread is to establish biblically what Christians--regardless of where they are from--are to believe and practice concerning music and the occult.
Excuse my ignorance, but you keep posting in generalities that I do not understand with the extreme examples you give. I know you have a more specific goal that you pushing towards. Please provide a more realistic example of songs and instruments that are actually in widespread use in today's church so I can discuss intelligently.
 

Scripture More Accurately

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Excuse my ignorance, but you keep posting in generalities that I do not understand with the extreme examples you give. I know you have a more specific goal that you pushing towards. Please provide a more realistic example of songs and instruments that are actually in widespread use in today's church so I can discuss intelligently.
There is sufficient objective information available that shows that rock music is music of the occult. Christians who use rock music in worship disobey the divine prohibition against having fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness (Eph. 5:11).
 
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JonC

Moderator
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There is sufficient objective information available that shows that rock music is music of the occult. Christians who use rock music in worship disobey the divine prohibition against having fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness (Eph. 5:11).
That could be said of any music that uses harmony or is based on scale rather than maqam.

E.g., per your definition singing hymns like How Great Thou Art is having fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness because of the music.
 

Scripture More Accurately

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That could be said of any music that uses harmony or is based on scale rather than maqam.

E.g., per your definition singing hymns like How Great Thou Art is having fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness because of the music.
These statements are false and are merely your opinions. It is impossible for you to show factually that all music of the world was first originated or invented by occultists.
 

JonC

Moderator
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These statements are false and are merely your opinions. It is impossible for you to show factually that all music of the world was first originated or invented by occultists.
Lol...no, my position that music based on harmony and scale differs from the music initially considered suitable for worship is not false or opinion. It is a fact. That you are unaware is a bit bewildering as it is no secret. Christians often rejected what we now accept as traditional.

I never said that all music was developed by occultists. That is a very strange claim you make....particularly as I didn't being up occultists.

Do you believe it is wrong to use secular music and instruments in worship (organs, drums, piano, harmony, a 12 octave scale, etc.)?

Or are we back to anything that does not tickle your ears is wrong?
 

JonC

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These statements are false and are merely your opinions. It is impossible for you to show factually that all music of the world was first originated or invented by occultists.
Oh.....

And do you find it ironic that the things you detest (like rhythm over harmony, drums, ect) were things that Jesus would have experienced in worship?
 

Scripture More Accurately

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Lol...no, my position that music based on harmony and scale differs from the music initially considered suitable for worship is not false or opinion. It is a fact. That you are unaware is a bit bewildering as it is no secret. Christians often rejected what we now accept as traditional.

I never said that all music was developed by occultists. That is a very strange claim you make....particularly as I didn't being up occultists.

Do you believe it is wrong to use secular music and instruments in worship (organs, drums, piano, harmony, a 12 octave scale, etc.)?

Or are we back to anything that does not tickle your ears is wrong?
Speaking out against occult music is biblical. Your claim that I speak against occult music because it "does not tickle [my] ears" is false.
 

JonC

Moderator
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Jesus did not experience any occult rhythms or drumming in worship. That is a bogus claim.
Of course Jesus didn't worship in the occult.

What I am saying is that Jesus would have experienced and worshiped worship where drums were used and the music was based in rhythm.

I am saying that YOU call the way Chriat would worship satanic. Not that you are correct.

Ancient Jews used at least the Tof Mirium. We have accounts (Exodus) of worship with drums and dancing (something you believe belongs to the occult). We know drums were used. We know the music was based in rhythm.

By "we" I mean Christians I'm general.....not "you". You only seem to think worship must tickle your ears to please God.
 

Scripture More Accurately

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Of course Jesus didn't worship in the occult.

What I am saying is that Jesus would have experienced and worshiped worship where drums were used and the music was based in rhythm.

I am saying that YOU call the way Chriat would worship satanic. Not that you are correct.

Ancient Jews used at least the Tof Mirium. We have accounts (Exodus) of worship with drums and dancing (something you believe belongs to the occult). We know drums were used. We know the music was based in rhythm.

By "we" I mean Christians I'm general.....not "you". You only seem to think worship must tickle your ears to please God.
You repeatedly misrepresent what I say. I have never called all music that uses drums and rhythms satanic. That is a false claim that you are making.

You fail to speak the truth when you say that I believe that the use of drums and dancing in the Exodus account was occult. I have never said any such thing.
 
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Deacon

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Reading this thread for the first time rather late.
And I haven’t read the full thread…

What is your OPINION of using popular song music, bar songs or the like to back up the words of hymns?

I have heard that a number of hymns written in the past century have appropriated this type of music.

Rob
 

Scripture More Accurately

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Reading this thread for the first time rather late.
And I haven’t read the full thread…

What is your OPINION of using popular song music, bar songs or the like to back up the words of hymns?

I have heard that a number of hymns written in the past century have appropriated this type of music.

Rob

Did Luther use tunes from love songs? | Religious Affections Ministries: Conservative Christianity, Worship, Culture, Aesthetics, Classical Education, Homeschooling, Family
 

Deacon

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As a youth I went to a group called Young Life.
Our leader began each week with an attention getter.
One week he had a contest where we were to sing AMAZING GRACE to different music.

The winner sang the hymn to the tune of
TAKE ME OUT TO THE BALL GAME.

Rob
 
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