Christians, Music, and the Occult: What Should We Believe and Practice?

[JonC]

Jesus did not experience any occult rhythms or drumming in worship. That is a bogus claim.

I agree. The issue is that the criteria you use to classify music as occult has very little to do with the occult.

Look at it this way. The way you determine if something is occult demands that you consider traditional hymns occult.

Obviously they are not. But the idea that a certain drum beat is evil is foolish superstition.

Heck, you'd probably classify the way Aaron encouraged those worshipping God with drums and dancing as occult.

We need to be better than those who believe "old wives tales".

 

[JonC]

.

The winner sang the hymn to the tune of
TAKE ME OUT TO THE BALL GAME.

Rob

I've just tried to do that. I can't.

 

[JonC]

Speaking out against occult music is biblical. Your claim that I speak against occult music because it "does not tickle [my] ears" is false.

Guarding against the occult is biblical. But that is not what you are doing.

Occultists bang drums and dance around. In Exodus so did God's people in worship to Him. Aaron was, after all, an occultist in your book (at least as far as music goes).

The rhythm a culture finds pleasing is not what makes worship occult.


You seem fine with music as long as it tickles your ears.

 

[DaveXR650]

It does not matter whether this is "a burning issue" where I am from. The point of the thread is to establish biblically what Christians--regardless of where they are from--are to believe and practice concerning music and the occult.

Music, and I mean the music itself makes a difference. There is something about certain types of music that can open you up to certain types of sin. Alan Bloom wrote about it in the book "The Closing of the American Mind". The imminent theologian Frank Zappa used to talk about it too. "Let the Bodies Hit the Floor" has a catchy tune. So does "Purple Haze". But I wouldn't want it played in church even if you could use the words to Amazing Grace. The music in church can be a real problem because the music itself affects us. But I have no idea how to regulate it.

 

[AustinC]

Music, and I mean the music itself makes a difference. There is something about certain types of music that can open you up to certain types of sin. Alan Bloom wrote about it in the book "The Closing of the American Mind". The imminent theologian Frank Zappa used to talk about it too. "Let the Bodies Hit the Floor" has a catchy tune. So does "Purple Haze". But I wouldn't want it played in church even if you could use the words to Amazing Grace. The music in church can be a real problem because the music itself affects us. But I have no idea how to regulate it.

Become an old school Mennonite and ban all instruments...

 

[DaveXR650]

Yeah. Primitive Baptists and some of the Church of Christ do that. I've been in churches that do that and some of those hymns sound beautiful with just the voices.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I agree. The issue is that the criteria you use to classify music as occult has very little to do with the occult.

Look at it this way. The way you determine if something is occult demands that you consider traditional hymns occult.

Obviously they are not. But the idea that a certain drum beat is evil is foolish superstition.

Heck, you'd probably classify the way Aaron encouraged those worshipping God with drums and dancing as occult.

We need to be better than those who believe "old wives tales".

False. Apparently, you fancy yourself to be an expert on the occult all over the world, but you are not.

You have no qualifications to declare what is and is not real concerning the activities of Satan and his demons in the world. Your claims are mere assertions and nothing more.

Your claims about what I would say about Aaron, etc. are totally false. You need to stop making such false statements.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Occultists bang drums and dance around. In Exodus so did God's people in worship to Him. Aaron was, after all, an occultist in your book (at least as far as music goes).

The rhythm a culture finds pleasing is not what makes worship occult.


You seem fine with music as long as it tickles your ears.

False. You are again making false statements about me. I have not made any statements concerning Aaron's being an occultist.

You are the one who is exalting your opinions and preferences as factual, but they are not.

You do not have any ability to declare what is and is not true about the occult all around the world.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Music, and I mean the music itself makes a difference. There is something about certain types of music that can open you up to certain types of sin. Alan Bloom wrote about it in the book "The Closing of the American Mind". The imminent theologian Frank Zappa used to talk about it too. "Let the Bodies Hit the Floor" has a catchy tune. So does "Purple Haze". But I wouldn't want it played in church even if you could use the words to Amazing Grace. The music in church can be a real problem because the music itself affects us. But I have no idea how to regulate it.

You are absolutely correct that what instrumental music is used "makes a difference."

 

[JonC]

False. Apparently, you fancy yourself to be an expert on the occult all over the world, but you are not.

You have no qualifications to declare what is and is not real concerning the activities of Satan and his demons in the world. Your claims are mere assertions and nothing more.

Your claims about what I would say about Aaron, etc. are totally false. You need to stop making such false statements.

Now you are just being silly.

I never claimed to be an expert on the occult.

But I am not as ignorant about music as you seem to be here.

But that is forgivable. This is a Christian forum, not a music forum.

What is strange, however, is your ignorance of Miriam the prophetess (Aaron’s sister) leading the women in worship, playing the hand drum (called a tof drum, or the Mirium drum) and dancing. The women likewise played hand drums and dance in worship to God.

This is the type of worship you associate with the occult (to be fair, it is the same type of music....and dancing....that we see in ANE paganism).

The reason this is strange is you believe the account false.

Perhaps you should be more concerned with reading God's Word and less concerned about the music other Christians use to worship God.

 

[JonC]

False. You are again making false statements about me. I have not made any statements concerning Aaron's being an occultist.

You are the one who is exalting your opinions and preferences as factual, but they are not.

You do not have any ability to declare what is and is not true about the occult all around the world.

Again, I am not talking about the occult....you are.

I am just observing that in the OT (and in the NT) worship music within God's people was identical to occult music. It was simply a matter of culture.

I am also claiming that your posts imply that Moses, Aaron, David, and Jesus worshipped in a sinful way.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

What is strange, however, is your ignorance of Miriam the prophetess (Aaron’s sister) leading the women in worship, playing the hand drum (called a tof drum, or the Mirium drum) and dancing. The women likewise played hand drums and dance in worship to God.

This is the type of worship you associate with the occult (to be fair, it is the same type of music....and dancing....that we see in ANE paganism).

The reason this is strange is you believe the account false.

Perhaps you should be more concerned with reading God's Word and less concerned about the music other Christians use to worship God.

This is total nonsense. I have not said anything about the account in Exodus 15 being false. That is purely a falsehood that you have fabricated.

You make a bogus claim that you cannot prove. You do not have any objective basis to say that the music played and the dancing in Exodus 15 is the same as the music that occultists play, etc.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I am just observing that in the OT (and in the NT) worship music within God's people was identical to occult music.

Your asserting that it was identical to occult music does not make it so. You have to prove that what you claim to be true is true.

Just because they used timbrels and there was dancing in the Exodus 15 account does not in any way prove that the music and the dancing was the same as the music and dancing of occultists who use real human skulls as drums in their occult practices.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

But I am not as ignorant about music as you seem to be here.

But that is forgivable. This is a Christian forum, not a music forum.

Your notion that I am ignorant about music is false.

I have had 15 semesters of college level music classes and have been teaching music lessons for more than 15 years. I have been researching the subject of the Bible and music for more than 11 years now. I have also spoken many times in churches and written many articles on the subject of the Bible and music.

 

[JonC]

Your notion that I am ignorant about music is false.

I have had 15 semesters of college level music classes and have been teaching music lessons for more than 15 years. I have been researching the subject of the Bible and music for more than 11 years now. I have also spoken many times in churches and written many articles on the subject of the Bible and music.

Then why are you posting as of you are unaware?

Pretending ignorance to stir the pot and get a reaction is trolling.

 

[JonC]

Your asserting that it was identical to occult music does not make it so. You have to prove that what you claim to be true is true.

Just because they used timbrels and there was dancing in the Exodus 15 account does not in any way prove that the music and the dancing was the same as the music and dancing of occultists who use real human skulls as drums in their occult practices.

By your account you are aware of the use of rhythmic drums and dancing have been used in Jewish, early Christian, and pagan worship.

You tell us.

How did the dancing and drumming differ between the Jews and the pagans that existed around them?

 

[JonC]

This is total nonsense. I have not said anything about the account in Exodus 15 being false. That is purely a falsehood that you have fabricated.

You make a bogus claim that you cannot prove. You do not have any objective basis to say that the music played and the dancing in Exodus 15 is the same as the music that occultists play, etc.

You make the unsubstantiated claim that occultists came up with the music they incorporate (something you cannot prove).

What we see most often with the occult is that they borrow from what is good and use it for their own purposes.

 

[AustinC]

You make the unsubstantiated claim that occultists came up with the music they incorporate (something you cannot prove).

What we see most often with the occult is that they borrow from what is good and use it for their own purposes.

Good point. God is the Creator, Satan is the corrupted imitator. God created music. Satan twists it and imitates it.

I have heard legalists clamor about music as early as the late 1960s. It's really a cover for them as they decry a cultural change. When I look at the "Christian" music that was written in the 1900s, most of it is just a reflexion of the culture. But, since legalists romanticize that culture, they think the music is Godward, while music using different instruments starting in the late 60s to the present is evil. It's utter hogwash and transparent legalism that any discerning Christian can easily dismiss as self-centered pride.

 

[DaveXR650]

I think the music itself does make a difference but I don't take it upon myself to decide which is acceptable or not. I have to say though, I have noticed over the years that the influx of electric guitars, drums, amps and setting the stage up to mimic a rock concert was brought about by people in the church who were just as narrow minded in their choice of music as any old fundy. These folks demanded that these changes be made or they won't come and worship. That's why it was done. Why is it that it's always on the traditionally minded folks to be open minded but there is no equivalent open mindedness or respect of tradition required of the guitar rift crowd.

 

[JonC]

I think the music itself does make a difference but I don't take it upon myself to decide which is acceptable or not. I have to say though, I have noticed over the years that the influx of electric guitars, drums, amps and setting the stage up to mimic a rock concert was brought about by people in the church who were just as narrow minded in their choice of music as any old fundy. These folks demanded that these changes be made or they won't come and worship. That's why it was done. Why is it that it's always on the traditionally minded folks to be open minded but there is no equivalent open mindedness or respect of tradition required of the guitar rift crowd.

I've seen music divide. In my experience the resistance has been introducing contemporary praise music or changing the music to hymns. But I know it goes both ways.

One church I attended had 3 services. The early one had traditional music (mostly older members), the second had "praise and worship" music (mostly mid 30's and older), and the third service had contemporary Christian music (mostly 20's and younger.....college and high school).

People on all sides need to place worship over preference.