Christians resisting God?

[steaver]

I lean toward that position, yes. We are not told anywhere in God's word that rebelling against a ruler or overthrowing that ruler is okay.

Which takes us back to how God forms "powers that be". SINCE God formed these United States of America, then it WAS God who led the colonies to declare independence.

Two entirely different situations. God told the Israelites to do what they did - they were being led directly by God. This did not happen with the colonies.

It didn't? Who formed these United States of America? Romans 13 says God forms the powers that be.

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

Which takes us back to how God forms "powers that be". SINCE God formed these United States of America, then it WAS God who led the colonies to declare independence.

If God formed the U.S., then he also formed Hitler and Stalin's governments/tyrannies. Yes, God is in charge of all powers. That does not make them okay.

I don't see how you can make an exception for the colonies rebelling against the King. Besides, you are ignoring Rom. 13 and other passages.

It didn't? Who formed these United States of America? Romans 13 says God forms the powers that be.

You are equating God's direct revelation in forming Israel, which we are told about in God's word, with the formation of the U.S.? There is no evidence for that.

There is no evidence that just because the U.S. was formed out of a rebellion, that it was approved of by God. Otherwise, you'll have to say that God approved of Nero, Hitler, Stalin, and some horrible leaders in Africa who torture people.

 

[billwald]

Job 2:10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.


Isaiah 31

1Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!

2Yet he also is wise, and will bring evil, and will not call back his words: but will arise against the house of the evildoers, and against the help of them that work iniquity.

Isaiah 45:6-8 (King James Version)

6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

8Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

 

[steaver]

If God formed the U.S., then he also formed Hitler and Stalin's governments/tyrannies. Yes, God is in charge of all powers. That does not make them okay.

I don't see how you can make an exception for the colonies rebelling against the King. Besides, you are ignoring Rom. 13 and other passages.



You are equating God's direct revelation in forming Israel, which we are told about in God's word, with the formation of the U.S.? There is no evidence for that.

There is no evidence that just because the U.S. was formed out of a rebellion, that it was approved of by God. Otherwise, you'll have to say that God approved of Nero, Hitler, Stalin, and some horrible leaders in Africa who torture people.

Jhn 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
Jhn 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above:
Rom 13:1¶Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.



Yes, God ordained even the evil powers that be to accomplish His will on this earth.

:jesus:

 

[Marcia]

Jhn 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
Jhn 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above:
Rom 13:1¶Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.



Yes, God ordained even the evil powers that be to accomplish His will on this earth.

:jesus:

This does not make your case. There is no evidence that God led people to rebel against the King; he allowed it, just as he allowed Hitler to rule, Kadafi to rule, Stalin to rule, etc. Because a certain person or gov't is in power does not mean God approves of it or approves of the way it came about.

 

[Amy.G]

This does not make your case. There is no evidence that God led people to rebel against the King; he allowed it, just as he allowed Hitler to rule, Kadafi to rule, Stalin to rule, etc. Because a certain person or gov't is in power does not mean God approves of it or approves of the way it came about.

But what about Pharaoh? God did not make him to be evil, yet God did raise him up into power in order to use him for His purposes. Pharaoh did not make himself powerful, God did. In this way God is sovereign even over those who oppose Him.

 

[steaver]

But what about Pharaoh? God did not make him to be evil, yet God did raise him up into power in order to use him for His purposes. Pharaoh did not make himself powerful, God did. In this way God is sovereign even over those who oppose Him.

Hey sister :thumbsup: This was my next post.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

The powers that be are ordained of God. For HIS purposes!

:godisgood:

 

[steaver]

This does not make your case. There is no evidence that God led people to rebel against the King; he allowed it, just as he allowed Hitler to rule, Kadafi to rule, Stalin to rule, etc. Because a certain person or gov't is in power does not mean God approves of it or approves of the way it came about.

Scripture please!

I have "argued" "a" case with scripture. You have argued against it, it appears with the reasoning of the human mind.

You bring up a point. What is the difference between God "allowing" and God "causing"?

Either way, it is God who is in control and the "powers that be are ordained by God". This means that God "prepared in advance" those who would have power. Allowing....causing...whatever way you want to say it.

:godisgood:

 

[Marcia]

But what about Pharaoh? God did not make him to be evil, yet God did raise him up into power in order to use him for His purposes. Pharaoh did not make himself powerful, God did. In this way God is sovereign even over those who oppose Him.

Amy, I have never said that God does not raise up rulers or that God is not sovereign. How in the world does this make Rom. 13 null and void?

 

[Marcia]

Scripture please!

I have "argued" "a" case with scripture. You have argued against it, it appears with the reasoning of the human mind.

You bring up a point. What is the difference between God "allowing" and God "causing"?

Either way, it is God who is in control and the "powers that be are ordained by God". This means that God "prepared in advance" those who would have power. Allowing....causing...whatever way you want to say it.

:godisgood:

I used Romans 13. We are commanded not to go against the rulers!!!! The early Chritians were under much worse rulers than the colonies but they were told to obey and subject themselves to the rulers. The colonies did not do this; they armed themselves and rebelled.

So God is in control; I agree with that and have never disagreed.

God being in control does not mean doing wrong is okay! You still are not seeing the point, it seems. God was in control of letting Hitler rule but I doubt you would say that Hitler was a good guy or that God approved of him.

 

[steaver]

I used Romans 13. We are commanded not to go against the rulers!!!! The early Chritians were under much worse rulers than the colonies but they were told to obey and subject themselves to the rulers. The colonies did not do this; they armed themselves and rebelled.

So God is in control; I agree with that and have never disagreed.

God being in control does not mean doing wrong is okay! You still are not seeing the point, it seems. God was in control of letting Hitler rule but I doubt you would say that Hitler was a good guy or that God approved of him.

God raised up Pharaoh and placed him as a "power that be". Pharaoh was an evil man and made salves of God's people. God approved of this evil upon Israel FOR THEIR OWN GOOD. That they would repent from their idolatry and see that there be only one God who can deliver and prosper them.

Now can you tell me how God ordained the USA?

Did God put it in the hearts of men to declare independence? If no, then how did God form the power of these united states? Or do you say God did not form this power but once He saw it had formed then He ordained it?

God is good, but I believe we tend to dismiss how God raises up even evil powers that be to carry out His judgments.

God Bless!

 

[Amy.G]

Pharaoh was an evil man and made salves of God's people.

I knew Pharaoh was a bad dude, but making salves of God's people?



(Sorry Steaver, I couldn't resist!) :laugh:

 

[Marcia]

God raised up Pharaoh and placed him as a "power that be". Pharaoh was an evil man and made salves of God's people. God approved of this evil upon Israel FOR THEIR OWN GOOD. That they would repent from their idolatry and see that there be only one God who can deliver and prosper them.

Now can you tell me how God ordained the USA?

Did God ordain the USA any differently from any other power/ruler/country? I don't get your question. I never said God ordained the U.S. but it depends on what you mean by "ordain."

Did God put it in the hearts of men to declare independence? If no, then how did God form the power of these united states? Or do you say God did not form this power but once He saw it had formed then He ordained it?

Whether God put it in the minds of people to declare independence or not, is not the point.

If He did, then that means he put it in Hitler's heart to kill Jews. Why make a distinction for the U.S.? That's the heart of our disagreement.

I never said God ordained the US, or certainly not in a way different from the way any other ruler/country comes to power. You are trying to say it was okay for the colonies to rebel, but God's word goes against that. Therefore, God does not endorse that, imo.

You are trying to make a distinction between the US and other countries and powers, but you have no basis for that.

God is good, but I believe we tend to dismiss how God raises up even evil powers that be to carry out His judgments.

I am not dismissing that.

 

[JTornado1]

Did The Founding Fathers Sin by Founding America?

Check out this article:

http://www.worldviewtimes.com/print.php?&ArticleID=3544

:thumbsup::godisgood::jesus:

 

[steaver]

Did God ordain the USA any differently from any other power/ruler/country? I don't get your question. I never said God ordained the U.S. but it depends on what you mean by "ordain."

Strong's; Ordained
1) to put in order, to station
a) to place in a certain order, to arrange, to assign a place, to appoint
1) to assign (appoint) a thing to one

Rom 13:1¶Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.


Is the USA a "higher power" or does not this scripture pertain to the USA?

Whether God put it in the minds of people to declare independence or not, is not the point.

It is my very point for opening this thread. To decide if the founding fathers sinned by declaring independence from a higher power. And if ALL the powers that be are put in order by God, then we must conclude that God uses mankind's rebellion to form the powers that be.

So how can a good thing come from sin? Or maybe it wasn't a good thing for us to declare independence.

You are trying to say it was okay for the colonies to rebel,

Not necessarily. I put this question to the list to learn how I should view the declaration of independence. I am asking if it is "ok" to rebel when the power that be is making you do evil? Was the King making us do evil?

You are trying to make a distinction between the US and other countries and powers, but you have no basis for that.

Not at all. As you ponted out, all power, even Hitler was raised up by God, just like Pharaoh and many other evil Kings and Dictators. But wasn't there any "powers that be" formed out of good deeds? Was the declaration of independence an evil deed?

:jesus:

 

[steaver]

Did The Founding Fathers Sin by Founding America?

Check out this article:

http://www.worldviewtimes.com/print.php?&ArticleID=3544

:thumbsup:

Thanks J :thumbsup:

The article makes some good points on the side of the declaration not being a sin before God.

:jesus:

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Thanks J :thumbsup:

The article makes some good points on the side of the declaration not being a sin before God.

:jesus:

Agreed. I like this that is quoted in that article:

The Presbyterians, Lutherans, Baptists, Congregationalists, and most other Christian denominations during the American Revolution believed that Romans 13 meant they were not to overthrow government as an institution and live in anarchy. This passage does not mean they had to submit to every civil law. Note that in Hebrews 11, a number of those who made the cut in the "Faith Hall of Fame" as heroes of the faith were guilty of civil disobedience-including Daniel, the three Hebrew Children, the Hebrew Midwives, Moses, etc.…

If the Founding Fathers had removed themselves from underneath the authority of Great Britain because they were choosing anarchy over an established government, then that would be a violation of Romans 13. Although Romans 13 is not an endorsement of every government, it is a description of what God says is the proper role of civil government.[

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Also,

In Scripture, God initiates several realms of authority in human governance: family, church, and state. These reflect the normal pattern of social interaction, and civilizations throughout history have reproduced these in some form. Simply because the presence of these institutions is normative, however, we should not expect every instance of them to be acceptable.

Fathers are the God-ordained head of the family, but those who abuse their children and wives deserve to be removed from their positions of authority. Few people disagree that a pastor or elder should be removed from leadership in the church-his God-ordained position of authority-if the leader is guilty of grave moral and ethical failures. And, as with church and family rule, God does not necessarily endorse every leader or every civil government that comes along.

That seals the point in my opinion. Especially in light of:

For 11 years, our Founders petitioned the King of Great Britain to cease his unlawful, unbiblical actions against the colonials. Although the monarch ignored their grievances, they remained under his authority until he sent 25,000 troops into the colonies for the purpose of seizing property, invading homes, and imprisoning people without trials. The king's actions violated his own British common law, the English Bill of Rights, and the centuries-old Magna Carta.

Once King George III started down the path of violent suppression, the Founders announced their intent to separate from Great Britain. They wrote at length that they were involved in self-defense, which they rightly believed was Biblically acceptable. British troops fired the first shot in every confrontation leading up to the Revolutionary War-the Massacre of 1770, the bombing of Boston in 1774, and the Lexington and Concord engagements of 1775.

Unless you are a thoroughgoing pacifist, there is no basis for saying the Founders sinned in defending themselves against King George's troops and their terrorist tactics against the colonists.

 

[Marcia]

As far as this goes:

The Presbyterians, Lutherans, Baptists, Congregationalists, and most other Christian denominations during the American Revolution believed that Romans 13 meant they were not to overthrow government as an institution and live in anarchy. This passage does not mean they had to submit to every civil law. Note that in Hebrews 11, a number of those who made the cut in the "Faith Hall of Fame" as heroes of the faith were guilty of civil disobedience-including Daniel, the three Hebrew Children, the Hebrew Midwives, Moses, etc.…
If the Founding Fathers had removed themselves from underneath the authority of Great Britain because they were choosing anarchy over an established government, then that would be a violation of Romans 13. Although Romans 13 is not an endorsement of every government, it is a description of what God says is the proper role of civil government

Rom. 13 tells us to obey the government. It makes no provision for civil disobedience. The only way we can perhaps allow civil disobedience is if the gov't commands an action that violates scripture. Daniel was ordered to worship the king; therefore, he could disobey. But he did this by praying, not by trying to overthrow the king. In each case above, they were ordered to do something against God.

If what the colonies did was right, why didn't the early Christians try to overthrow Rome? They certainly were being persecuted, even taken to be killed by lions. But they did not rebel.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

As far as this goes:



Rom. 13 tells us to obey the government. It makes no provision for civil disobedience. The only way we can perhaps allow civil disobedience is if the gov't commands an action that violates scripture. Daniel was ordered to worship the king; therefore, he could disobey. But he did this by praying, not by trying to overthrow the king. In each case above, they were ordered to do something against God.

If what the colonies did was right, why didn't the early Christians try to overthrow Rome? They certainly were being persecuted, even taken to be killed by lions. But they did not rebel.

They might should have. If someone comes to my home and tries to murder my family, and I can get my gun, point and shoot it, then God delivered those men into my hand.